Irish War of Independence 1919-1921: My Questions

upncmnhistori

1. Who were the ones that were stealing petrol and alchol ( I can't tell if it
was OIRA or the B & T's but the OIRA wouldn't steal from their own in 1920,
would they?)

2. Did non-poltical criminal activity happen in aeras that were heavily OIRA?

3. Can I ask the historians what the following passage sounds like to them

From the Freeman's Journal: 'A score of armed men, with blackened faces, entered the house, and taking him out declared (our Galway Correspondent states) that it was probably one of his sons whose dead body had been found in the pavilion. If that was not so, they alleged, it was the men who were at his house who had set fire to it. They threatened to shoot, and shots were also fired over his father's head. The latter was subsequently thrown into the stream
When permitted to go back to the hosue he found it had been thoroughly searched. His wife, he adds, prayed for one of the raiders, who acted very kindly to herand attended to her when she collapsed. This man subsequently went into the garden to search for her son, who was afraid to return, and brought him back to the house. He spoke with an English accent, said Mr. Cleary and recognised the picture of the Sacred Heart.
Police officers subsequently called to the house, which is withing a shotre distance of the barrack and meade inquiries regarding the affair. Mr. Cleary and his three sons were interned in at Frongoch after the 1916 rebellion. One son, Thomas, is at present in Ballykinlar.[/I]

Who were the men with 'blackened faces'? The B & T's wouldn't cover there face in this era would they?

I would also leave this thread open to other avid Irish War Of Independence historians that want to ask their own questions on it to other historians.

Little_Korean

To answer your question, yes, a lot of non-political criminal activity went on.

The OIRA were often in charge by default of areas where the RIC had been withdrawn from, law n' order had collapsed, etc. Liam Deasy wrote in this WoI memoir that the first task of the West Cork IRA once it was dominant was to curb the criminal activity that had been taking advantage of the chaos - how successful he was at that, or whether these same criminal gangs were also IRA men doing a bit on the side, was something he didn't mention.

One shooting incident in Clare seems to have been the result of a carjacking gone wrong:

A short time before the Rinneen ambush a group of I.R.A. Volunteers had shot dead Alan Cane Lendrum at Caherfeenick railway crossing, near Doonbeg in West Clare. Lendrum and ex-British army captain was the serving resident magistrate for Kilkee. According to Liam Haugh O/C of the West Clare Brigades Active Service Unit of the I.R.A. the aim of the operation was to commandeer Lendrums car not to kill him.

“The car was a Ford two seater and looked good in the eyes of some [I.R.A.] Volunteer officers. The tacit consent of the brigade commander was given for its seizure when opportunity favoured – with the understanding that its owner was not to be injured.”

When ambushed Lendrum had drawn an automatic pistol to defend himself and was shot dead. His lifeless body was hidden in a temporary watery grave near Doughmore Strand. Some published accounts have claimed that Lendrum was acting as a British spy most notably the ‘Banner Annual 1962’ which claimed that Lendrum was: “head of the British Secret Service in West Clare.” There is little evidence to suggest that Lendrum had an active intelligence roll as a spy or intelligence agent. Haugh was the only I.R.A. veteran to give a detailed account of the incident and he does not claim that Lendrum was a spy. Haugh’s account must be taken as the most authoritative version of events as he would have known those involved and was a senior I.R.A. leader in the area. If Lendrum had been suspected of spying by the I.R.A. surely Haugh would have mentioned this as justification for Lendrum’s killing? Apart from the seizure of Lendrum’s car the only other possible reason for Lendrum’s ambush comes from D.I. George Noblett of the R.I.C., a personal friend of Lendrum’s, who later commented

“They had orders to kidnap Lendrum not to shoot him.”

If Noblett was correct then presumably the I.R.A. planned to kidnap Lendrum and exchange him for I.R.A. prisoners in British custody. However it is clear from both accounts that the intention was not to assassinate Lendrum and it seems unlikely that he was acting as a spy.

About the account above, could well have been RIC men - Tomás Mac Curtain's killers, almost certainly off-duty RIC men, had been described as witnesses as having blackened faces, and if the family were Volunteer suspects (what with their involvement in 1916), then it makes sense that they would have been targeted by the RIC for want of any better leads.

GRMA

OIRA is generally used to refer to the Official Irish Republican Army. Just call them the IRA.

The IRA did indeed seize and use various things, petrol too I'm sure.

However they did not steal.

As the army of the Irish Republic they were entitled to commandeer various things for the war effort.

Little_Korean

GRMA wrote: »

However they did not steal.

As the army of the Irish Republic they were entitled to commandeer various things for the war effort.

I'm sure that's the way they looked at it. It's highly questionable whether the people having their possessions 'commandeered' were of the same mind.

Luca Brasi

Little_Korean wrote: »

I'm sure that's the way they looked at it. It's highly questionable whether the people having their possessions 'commandeered' were of the same mind.

Gangsterism didnt start with the Provisional IRA. There are plenty examples of IRA resorting to theft and land grabbing in the 1921/1923 period for their own benefit

grass seed

There's BMH statements that talk about some West Cork IRA men deported because they were raiding houses (of protestant people) at night, pretending it was for IRA funds.

Fratton Fred

Are there any meaningful casualty figures for this period?

Fratton Fred

Are there any meaningful casualty figures for this period?

Dr.Nightdub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are there any meaningful casualty figures for this period?

Eunan O'Halpin of TCD has done a study on The Dead of the Irish Revolution which covers deaths by county but it only goes up as far as Dec. 1921 so it wouldn't cover the likes of the Dunmanway killings of April 1922. I think it's due to be published some time later this year but there was a summary of his findings in Terror in Ireland 1916-1923, edited by David Fitzpatrick, which was published last year.

kabakuyu

This might help http://www.dcu.ie/~foxs/irhist/index.htm