builder problems so soon on the job

treecreeper

hi everyone,
a single woman having difficulties with the builder doing an extension and 30,000k job and i am very very nervous as have to face him first light. i didnt envisage this so early on and seen his work locally and he did a great job, but think i may be taken for a ride as on my own on this...advice needed here please asap thanks

the_syco

Have you paid in full or not? If not, you'll have more leverage over him.

treecreeper

no no money has changed hands at all, but the outside breeze blocks up and a centre three breeze blocks in place.
he wasnt happy me looking up window and patio companies and actually said to me 'i am not having you tell me who the contractor will be!' but i never expected this AT ALL and expected an engagement here.
i stopped the work and he is calling around tomorrow first light.
this is not pleasant at all at all.
he had not even showed me visuals and was going to order tomorrow, how on earth did he think i could accept this? i had engaged three companies to give me quotesfor the windows and doors

muffler

I dont know the extent of the problems you are experiencing or the background involved but 2 things I will point out:

1. As stated above money talks. Do not part with the money until such time as you happy. In saying that have you any form of a contract signed?

2. Remember that you are the employer and therefor in the position to call the shots so to speak.

treecreeper

had a 'mood board' which contained the architects drawings, images of patio doors, pricing from two companies, and a bloody good visual of what i wanted, on another board were the snag list and a list of what was to be covered and also the financial amount i could afford and he signed on this board the start and finish date and this was the agreement.
we agreed the price, we went over the two boards and he signed, i signed and it was withnessed by my sister.

newmug

Be a bit more specific. What exactly is the problem? If he has the blocks completely up, then you are significantly along in the job. Is it turning out, or not turning out as you envisaged? Is it his attitude thats annoying you?

nick 56

As a retired plumber I would suggest you tell him to **** off . In this day and age and in this economic situation you should not (and never could) bully customers.

You are not a child you have the money – you are the boss, If he can’t deal with you in a polite manner you don’t want him building / extending your home

Do not talk to him on your own

Phone and cancel the appointment until you have somebody else with you.

It is not a question of right and wrong , he has made you uncomfortable / nervous

---

end of story.

treecreeper

side part of extension well on way, foundations down and breeze blocks up, he had not even shown me images of windows and doors, he wanted to order tomorrow, this is when i smelled a rat and so i went online asked three windows and door companies to send reps to discuss possibiities but these possibilies were already on said board that he had seen, and two costings were already there.
the men building placed three breeze blocks half way on the width of the extension and i wondered why a large amount of block was there and when i showed them the architects drawings they said it was the first they had seen and the builder had instructed for the breeze blocks and two smaller patio sliding doors, so in effect the builder had planned something entirely contrary to what was on the mood board and done so without consultation. no it isnt going well as you can see, too early on in a build for this nonsense and doesnt bode well for me at all!
i best go to bed as upset, will check this board before i see him in the morning. thanks for engaging on this message i do appreciate it.
i am sorry i ran with this builder now, but its what i could afford and he did a fine job locally but that was for a married couple!!!

treecreeper

yes, i think i will cancel this appointment.
i want a cool off period.
i will not see him alone and need to get in some beef on this!
i agree we are in very straigtened times and he should be grateful for a job.
i think he will come round as the other client who had recommended him to me has been told about this blip.
i will see how this effects things.
yes, thanks maybe i should just put a few days between him and me.
i feel too nervous tonight to face this on my own
thanks

A fella called fish

Fully agree with Nick above.

Cancel the meeting and reschedule when you have someone with you (ideally an Engineer/Architect which might add some weight to your side of the argument).

You note that you have Architect's plans? Is this Architect still involved?

You are the one paying for the windows, so if he orders materials off his own bat without your instruction then tell him he will without doubt be made return them.

treecreeper

the architect who did the plans is not around now, but i did contact another architect and told him i may need him! he hasnt got back but he may have taken an extended holiday, he is a really really decent guy but he has a young family too so he just may be getting his head around and inbetween the yowling of them!!!

treecreeper

my brother is a builder/architect retired so he said he would drop by in ten days, this the builder does know about. so he knows i have some cover some place!

newmug

Well best of luck treecreeper. If the builder shows up tomorrow, dont be intimidated by him. Remember that you hold all the cards by controlling the purse strings. He may ask to be paid for what he has done so far, if he does, dont pay him, you'll never see him again. Make him wait until you have someone with you and you can discuss your project and its problems like adults.

treecreeper

thank you all for shoring me up last night. the builder arrived this morning but i was calm and said that i felt the cooling off had not been complete and that i would be in touch when stronger, that i had put in a bad night indeed and i wasnt happy with his approach.
i said no more.
he left.
no workmen came and i have managed now to secure a local architect, well i didnt, my twin did. am far far happier now really am, meeting this architect tomorrow i want to send out a very warm thanks to all who responded here, will keep ye posted!

rayjdav

With all due respect, what is a "mood board" bar your interpreation of a project. Did you actually have detailed plans and specs for the builder to work off or vague visuals?
The point of he should be bloody glad of the work is nonsense imho. What experience do you have or professional advise did you get during the duration of what was actually built? And not from Billy down the pub either.
Obviously he is competant otherwise I dont think you would have accepted the recommendation of your mate?
You would need more details here to make a fair call on a situation like this.

Quazzie

rayjdav wrote: »

With all due respect, what is a "mood board" bar your interpreation of a project. Did you actually have detailed plans and specs for the builder to work off or vague visuals?
The point of he should be bloody glad of the work is nonsense imho. What experience do you have or professional advise did you get during the duration of what was actually built? And not from Billy down the pub either.
Obviously he is competant otherwise I dont think you would have accepted the recommendation of your mate?
You would need more details here to make a fair call on a situation like this.

I agree. From all your previous posts it seems you showed him a "mood board" which showed ideas on what you wanted, and then asked him to agree to a budget, whilst you get to decide windows and doors suppliers etc. He agree to a budget because he had a budget for all components, why would he agree a budget then allow you choose the components that could easily push the budget beyond what was previously agreed?

It seems you gave him ideas and a budget and then asked him to build but when he agreed and set about building you're moving the goalposts. You'll get no one to agree to build for you under them conditions.

treecreeper

no, this mood board was the final visual but the detail of the whole project was the one i gave to all builders i had asked. there was a full architect drawing and so he knew exactly what i wanted and we had the snag lists and the various components and i had costings up from two companies for windows and doors and the measurements so he saw these and these i indicated to him as what i wanted. tomorrow i have the architect over so i am pleased on this development.
it was done with a lot of advice and the only element i couldnt have was the architect who did the drawing to be project manager due to financial constraints.

archtech

treecreeper wrote: »

it was done with a lot of advice and the only element i couldnt have was the architect who did the drawing to be project manager due to financial constraints.

its most likely that you wouldn't be in your current situation now , if you have retained your architect or someone else to at on your behalf.

Its a common mistake of some self builders in order to save a few bob and then builders take advantage of them. You're one of the lucky ones compared to some of the situations I've had to sort out over the years.

belcampprisoner

what plans and permits have you,you dont want planning telling you to knock it down

wirehairmax

First of all some questions for the OP:

1. Was there an exact specification given to the builder for windows and glazing? Were they to match existing windows or ????
2. Did you or did you not engage a builder on a fixed price contract to build your extension? If so is he supplying all materials including windows? Can he not choose his own supplier as long as they are equivalant to Architects specification or on the Architects drawings? If not subtract the cost of his supplier from the contract and you supply the windows yourself but if there is a cost overrun, this is borne by you, the client.
3. If the builder has to use your nominated supplier, have you included for his profit and overheads?
4. Is there clearly dimensioned Architects plans? Has the builder been issued with a set of working drawings clearly marked ''for construction'' Has the builder deviated from these during the blockwork?
5. What form of contract have you used? Is it RIAI, Law Society approved?
6. Did the builder at any stage threaten you or use profanities and vulgar language towards you? Or did you merely not like his ''tone''?
7. If the extension extends to the side of your house, you must have had to obtain planning permission? Have you issued a commencement notice to your Local Authority?

To be honest, your actions in stopping the builder from working have been hysterical and childish. He turned up to talk to you this morning and you refused to speak to him because you had a ''bad night''. To date the only advice you have taken is from anonymous posters on an internet forum. Your failure to engage a Project Manager to act on your behalf from the beginning has come back to bite you and now you cant deal with it. You are messing with a mans livelyhood and his right to earn a living because of your inability to deal with the situation in a mature adult fashion. I'm sure he has family and employees to support and he has every right to be paid for works carried out to date. You have refused acsess to the site over something that could easily be sorted out by dialogue and reference to the specification upon which a price was agreed.
Also if you withhold payment and dismiss the builder, expect a solicitors letter demanding payment in full for all works carried out to date. You are the one being unreasonable here.
Also I dont accept the statements from you and from others saying ''he should be glad of the work''. He does not owe you any favours. You are not a charity. He tendered for the work and you accepted his price. He commenced the work in good faith and it seems like he has carried out quite an amount of work to date without seeking any payment. That to me says he has placed quite an amount of trust in you and now I'd say he is thinking to himself ''what sort of a basketcase am I dealing with here? Am I ever going to get paid?'' The good builders out there are not idle and this guy came to you with a good reputation and recommendation from your friends.
Personally I'd love to get the full story and see this ''mood board'' for myself. in fact I'm so interested I'd nearly mediate for free. To be fair to all parties, I hope that whatever advice you take from now on, is impartial and honest. Be very careful what advice you read here from the anonymous experts who dont disclose their identities and make bold statement without knowing the full facts and the legal ramifications of any such actions advised upon.

wirehairmax

archtech wrote: »

its most likely that you wouldn't be in your current situation now , if you have retained your architect or someone else to at on your behalf.

Its a common mistake of some self builders in order to save a few bob and then builders take advantage of them. You're one of the lucky ones compared to some of the situations I've had to sort out over the years.

I've known architects to take advantage of these situations in the past also. There is no one trade or profession that came out of the Celtic tiger whiter than white. Need I mention RIAI % fees?
There are plenty of good builders left out there after this so called boom, and I think the good guys are still there on merit. A lot of the dirt have thankfully left the industry or been found out.

Happyman42

wirehairmax wrote: »

First of all some questions for the OP:

1. Was there an exact specification given to the builder for windows and glazing? Were they to match existing windows or ????
2. Did you or did you not engage a builder on a fixed price contract to build your extension? If so is he supplying all materials including windows? Can he not choose his own supplier as long as they are equivalant to Architects specification or on the Architects drawings? If not subtract the cost of his supplier from the contract and you supply the windows yourself but if there is a cost overrun, this is borne by you, the client.
3. If the builder has to use your nominated supplier, have you included for his profit and overheads?
4. Is there clearly dimensioned Architects plans? Has the builder been issued with a set of working drawings clearly marked ''for construction'' Has the builder deviated from these during the blockwork?
5. What form of contract have you used? Is it RIAI, Law Society approved?
6. Did the builder at any stage threaten you or use profanities and vulgar language towards you? Or did you merely not like his ''tone''?
7. If the extension extends to the side of your house, you must have had to obtain planning permission? Have you issued a commencement notice to your Local Authority?

To be honest, your actions in stopping the builder from working have been hysterical and childish. He turned up to talk to you this morning and you refused to speak to him because you had a ''bad night''. To date the only advice you have taken is from anonymous posters on an internet forum. Your failure to engage a Project Manager to act on your behalf from the beginning has come back to bite you and now you cant deal with it. You are messing with a mans livelyhood and his right to earn a living because of your inability to deal with the situation in a mature adult fashion. I'm sure he has family and employees to support and he has every right to be paid for works carried out to date. You have refused acsess to the site over something that could easily be sorted out by dialogue and reference to the specification upon which a price was agreed.
Also if you withhold payment and dismiss the builder, expect a solicitors letter demanding payment in full for all works carried out to date. You are the one being unreasonable here.
Also I dont accept the statements from you and from others saying ''he should be glad of the work''. He does not owe you any favours. You are not a charity. He tendered for the work and you accepted his price. He commenced the work in good faith and it seems like he has carried out quite an amount of work to date without seeking any payment. That to me says he has placed quite an amount of trust in you and now I'd say he is thinking to himself ''what sort of a basketcase am I dealing with here? Am I ever going to get paid?'' The good builders out there are not idle and this guy came to you with a good reputation and recommendation from your friends.
Personally I'd love to get the full story and see this ''mood board'' for myself. in fact I'm so interested I'd nearly mediate for free. To be fair to all parties, I hope that whatever advice you take from now on, is impartial and honest. Be very careful what advice you read here from the anonymous experts who dont disclose their identities and make bold statement without knowing the full facts and the legal ramifications of any such actions advised upon.

To be honest, your actions in stopping the builder from working have been hysterical and childish. He turned up to talk to you this morning and you refused to speak to him because you had a ''bad night''.

I think this statement rules you out of 'mediating'.:rolleyes:
Why is building different to any other trade? If I send plans to a steel fabricator he doesn't 'decide' to do his own thing. Yet there are those here who are ignoring what the OP is saying here. There where architects drawings that he is not following. Or am I missing somethng? Why should she go to the extra expense of getting project managers/architects involved? The self interested scaremongering that goes on about this is just bewildering.
Just build the fekking thing to the plans and if you can't, liase with the client in a proper way.

newmug

Project managers for a bloody extension, commencement notices, all the good builders are working:rolleyes: Seems like there's a lot of unemployed architects on Boards.

DOCARCH

wirehairmax wrote: »

Need I mention RIAI % fees?

They were there long before any Celtic Tiger and a lot higher too with a pretty much set scale of fees.

Apologies for taking OT

newmug wrote: »

Project managers for a bloody extension, commencement notices, all the good builders are working:rolleyes: Seems like there's a lot of unemployed architects on Boards.

Lots of good architects working/very busy too....even on % fees!

treecreeper

i think you have not read what i had said. and it is hopefully going to be sorted.
architect came today.
he clearly understood what i was saying and there will be a good outcome i feel.
the architect is keeping an eye on this for FREE! yes, and he was a lovely man and we had a good talk.
as for hysterical, hardly.
there were complete and appropiate architects drawings.
i had been well informed of how to proceed, the only difficulty i was on my own in this and there are people who do try to cut corners, you know.
the guy was not pleasant to me at all and i got a big fright.
all i had said to the man was that i had asked three window contractors to come with ideas and costings for the measurements i had given this builder.
i find it difficult actually for people to write long tracts and be abusive here toward a person when they are asking advice, even if the person is naieve or worried we all need clarification.
i am flipping sixty, in a wheelchair and doing this with no person around so if you think a question about building and stuff is inappropiate and i should be a man of steel when in fact i am the exact opposite then go pick on someone your own size. this thread is now closed.

Poor Uncle Tom

If anyone finds a post which they feel is abusive, please press the red outlined triangle at the bottom left of that post and let us deal with it.

Any posts here are the posters own opinions and should be verified professionally for merit, any advice given on any public forum by anonymous posters should never be acted on without independent external professional input.

Having read the whole thread I feel that some posters may be making assumptions from posts and reacting to that, but I do think there is some real solid information to be taken from some posts. Some of the posters here are living with these kind of problems day in day out and it gets tiring looking at the same naivety leading to the same problems on sites on a continual basis.

But remember, that's not the case here as right from the start the OP said there were Architects Drawings and that works were not being done in accordance with them, everything else is incidental.

Thankfully the OP has gotten on-site professional input, which should rectify matters.