Zombie dilema

Neutron_pot

Would you preferr to be stuck with a world full of slow zombies for 3 years or a world full those fast zombies for 3months?

Kess73

slow for three years.


If the world was full of fast zeds a la the remake of Dawn Of The Dead, then the chances of surving the inital outbreak would be very slim if it spread as quickly as it did in the film.

You would be trying to survive in an enviroment where you would have practically no margin for error. If you get caught in the open you are dead. If you barricade yourself in somewhere and make a noise, then they are so frantic and quick in their movement that their constant battering would make short work of most non specialist barricades.

Going out for supplies would require a level of subterfuge that would be nigh on impossible to keep up for three months.


At least with shufflers you have more room for error. You have far superior strength, agility, and speed. You get more time to think when being chased. You can climb and they cannot. You have a good chance if you have to go hand to hand with one.


To have any sort of chance against a massive outbreak of sprinters, you would pretty much have to be in a fully secure location at the moment of outbreak, and you would have to have all your supplies and resources there at that very moment also.

Put it this way, it the outbreak happened tonight at about 3 am. Would you prefer to be facing some slow moving shufflers coming out of the dark or looking at blurs of movement outside before hearing a door or window shatter downstairs?

Neutron_pot

Makes sense . . .

However theres a good chance that fast zombies will destroy themselves, as seen is 28 days later with the vomitting and the starving
etc. So really you might see their numbers plumit after a month.

True, slow zac is easy to avoid or dispatch. . . . but ud have to be constantly on the move, if just a few get wind of your location, your ass will be surrounded by a herd which will only get bigger . . . . also time is on their side they could wait you!

as for fast ones they seem to get distracted easily

ScumLord

Neutron_pot wrote: »

However theres a good chance that fast zombies will destroy themselves, as seen is 28 days later with the vomitting and the starving
etc. So really you might see their numbers plumit after a month.

It's unlikely they'd be at their peak for more than a few hours, the human body just can't take that kind of sustained abuse. Well, it can if it's trained but out of shape Europeans won't make good runners. Even if it was an athlete I don't think it would last more than a few days.

Proper rest is one of the most important parts of athletic training. After that a proper diet, without those two things the mechanics of the human body will fall apart pretty quickly.

Running zombies are a nightmare scenario but so unlikely they're in the same league as vampires in my mind.

endacl

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Would you preferr to be stuck with a world full of slow zombies for 3 years or a world full those fast zombies for 3months?

Depends. would I be a fast zombie or a slow zombie? It would be a pain either way.

Kess73

ScumLord wrote: »

It's unlikely they'd be at their peak for more than a few hours, the human body just can't take that kind of sustained abuse. Well, it can if it's trained but out of shape Europeans won't make good runners. Even if it was an athlete I don't think it would last more than a few days.

Proper rest is one of the most important parts of athletic training. After that a proper diet, without those two things the mechanics of the human body will fall apart pretty quickly.

Running zombies are a nightmare scenario but so unlikely they're in the same league as vampires in my mind.

Whilst I tend to subscribe to the school of thought that says a zed would be quick at the start (well as quick as they were whilst living) and would then swiftly:) become shufflers through rigor mortis as well as wear and tear, we really cannot discount the idea of runners so easily.

If we are prepared to accept the idea of dead individuals getting up and walking, then the same parameters do allow for the concept of quick zeds as long as their physical abilities don't exceed the maximum physical potential each individual zed had at the moment they turned.

Maybe the virus would have some litle quirk that prevented the onset of rigor mortis or slowed down decomp. Maybe the Zeds only moved in a frantic or quick manner when a potential prey item was spotted. The rest of the time they could just be standing still or shuffling around.


Even in the remake of DOTD the sprinter zeds went into a standing still or shuffling mode when not chasing a live human.

Take rigor mortis out of the equation and the length of time a quick zed could remain quick may become a scarily long time.Even longer is decomp was retarded in any way.

The only way a sprinter zed free from rigor would fall apart in a day would be if it was running full pelt non stop for most of that day as well as using it's upper limbs etc atthe same time in just as frantic a manner. I run a number of marathons a year and whilst I am in good to very good shape pretty much all year round, I see people in so so condition finishing marathons without falling apart. If the zeds are start stop in terms of their motion, then they prolong their ability to move fast imho.

Another factor would be how long exactly would a chase last.

Think about it.

Most chases that involved a sprinter zed or a group of sprinter zeds chasing a human or humans would not be a long distance. I would argue that most of those chases, especially at the start of the outbreak would be over in a short span of both distance and time. Leading to less wear and tear on the zeds, not to mention the possibility of a new sprinter rising up.

If sprinters remained quick for 24 to 48 hours, they would be a terribly difficult foe.

If they remained so for a week, then they would be capable of devestating areas and repopulating themselves with the numbers that fell to them.

If they were capable of staying intact and somewhat quick for longer than a week, and then became a shuffler when they wore out body parts.........


Well trying to survive for three months in that enviroment would be dependant on huge slices of luck imho save for a tiny number of preppers who were already in secure locations when the outbreak caught on.

Kess73

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Makes sense . . .

However theres a good chance that fast zombies will destroy themselves, as seen is 28 days later with the vomitting and the starving
etc. So really you might see their numbers plumit after a month.

True, slow zac is easy to avoid or dispatch. . . . but ud have to be constantly on the move, if just a few get wind of your location, your ass will be surrounded by a herd which will only get bigger . . . . also time is on their side they could wait you!

as for fast ones they seem to get distracted easily

But if they were true zeds then they would not be like the 28 Days/Months lads. In those films the infected were still alive and as such were vunerable to pretty much anything that would stop a regular living human be it a blow with enough force behind it, a gun shot, a stab wound, or simple starvation.

Sprinter zeds on the other hand won't die from a blow or gun shot to the body, and are that bit more difficult to stop than the infected from the 28 Days/Months series due to the finishing stroke needing to be far more accurate.

ScumLord

Kess73 wrote: »

Whilst I tend to subscribe to the school of thought that says a zed would be quick at the start (well as quick as they were whilst living) and would then swiftly:) become shufflers through rigor mortis as well as wear and tear, we really cannot discount the idea of runners so easily.

I'd agree that initially the infected could be prone to feats of super strength, and I agree that these feats of super strength would turn out to be the reason they end up shambling due to the damage caused by that over exertion.

But sprinting itself would be very difficult, surely? We have to remember that at the end of the day we're talking about sick people. It's also a disease that's attacking the brain and nervous system as it needs to usurp those systems for it's own goals. Sprinting is a fairly complex action, even mentally to carry out. Would a person that's slowly dying from a brain disease have the mental ability to sprint?

If we are prepared to accept the idea of dead individuals getting up and walking, then the same parameters do allow for the concept of quick zeds as long as their physical abilities don't exceed the maximum physical potential each individual zed had at the moment they turned.

Maybe the virus would have some litle quirk that prevented the onset of rigor mortis or slowed down decomp. Maybe the Zeds only moved in a frantic or quick manner when a potential prey item was spotted. The rest of the time they could just be standing still or shuffling around.

I think a zombie may well shut down without some sort of stimulus. I don't think rigor mortis would necessarily be an issue either. It's a side effect of a standard death but may not occur with zombies.

Take rigor mortis out of the equation and the length of time a quick zed could remain quick may become a scarily long time.Even longer is decomp was retarded in any way.

I don't think zombies would decompose either. Decomposition is initiated by the bacteria living inside your gut during your life. We've been told that the virus is toxic to most other life so it may well just kill off the bacteria and insects that would decompose the body. This just leaves weathering.

I run a number of marathons a year and whilst I am in good to very good shape pretty much all year round, I see people in so so condition finishing marathons without falling apart. If the zeds are start stop in terms of their motion, then they prolong their ability to move fast imho.

It's the damage they do during the start bit and the fact they have no ability to repair tissue damage that makes the stop bit redundant though.

We've also been lead to believe that zombies don't have the protection our muscles do from over exertion. That being a mental block that prevents us from using our muscles to their full potential outside of a life threatening event.

Zombies could potentially over exert themselves every time they sprint or move. If they run with the full ability of their muscles they will literally tear their muscles apart from the very beginning. While the out of shape people that you saw running the marathon are doing the same thing (almost, they don't run the second half of the marathon nearly as quick as the first so their brain has already started throttling back muscle strength) they don't go on to run another marathon the next day. They spend the next week hobbling around while their tissue repairs. Zombies would just continue to tear their muscles even more bringing about rapid tissue damage.

In a horde a zombie may not be able to tell ally from prey, they may well make the effort to attack anything that moves. All these kind of things would lead me to believe that after infection a person will get sick and dementia like conditions will set in with violent tendencies, while they will have super strength leading up to their death it will be uncoordinated. By the time they do die, which won't be a fall down dead event I think it'll be a slow and seamless process they'll have done significant damage to a proportion of their muscles to disfigure their stance and gape.

When they are dead they simply don't have the cognitive ability or muscle condition to carry out complex movements. For the most part once they fall over they won't be able to get up again. Within a relatively short amount of time, probably 2 - 3 weeks or so most zombies will be scuttling around the ground. Their fingers will have been ground down to the bone, probably knees too.

Neutron_pot

I don't think zombies would decompose either. Decomposition is initiated by the bacteria living inside your gut during your life. We've been told that the virus is toxic to most other life so it may well just kill off the bacteria and insects that would decompose the body. This just leaves weathering.

Possibly . . .but max brooks version of the virus is not universial, for example in the walking dead people are already infected and they are not poisoned... so there is a good chance some bacteria will adapt to zombie flesh.

Also lysosome degradation is another factor, maybe some degradation there . . .

However i think we can all agree zack definitely looses its growth and repair capacity......

endacl

Hey OP. Seeing as this is a hypothetical scenario, can I be Batman? If I can be Batman, either option is cool with me. Wouldn't fancy any zombie's chances against Batman. And even if I was bitten/infected...... Zombie Batman!! How cool would that be?!?

Mod Warning given.

ScumLord

Neutron_pot wrote: »

Possibly . . .but max brooks version of the virus is not universial, for example in the walking dead people are already infected and they are not poisoned... so there is a good chance some bacteria will adapt to zombie flesh.

It could happen, but the problem is that the bacteria has to die or the zombie won't work. It'll be a matter of days before the bacteria inside has broken down enough of the body to make the zombie immobile.

Tzar Chasm

it all depends on the rate of decay,

Will all the Z's be gone after 3 months, or is 3 months the point when they begin to decay, this is an important question, if I was holed up and counting the days I'd like to know that every day the problem got a little less sticky counting towards the 3 months rather than the situation where I knew it couldnt move for at least 3 months.

same for the 3 year option, although shufflers would afford me more time to build my defences, I still wouldnt relish the possibilities of a 3 year siege

Kess73

ScumLord wrote: »

I'd agree that initially the infected could be prone to feats of super strength, and I agree that these feats of super strength would turn out to be the reason they end up shambling due to the damage caused by that over exertion.

But sprinting itself would be very difficult, surely? We have to remember that at the end of the day we're talking about sick people. It's also a disease that's attacking the brain and nervous system as it needs to usurp those systems for it's own goals. Sprinting is a fairly complex action, even mentally to carry out. Would a person that's slowly dying from a brain disease have the mental ability to sprint?



I think a zombie may well shut down without some sort of stimulus. I don't think rigor mortis would necessarily be an issue either. It's a side effect of a standard death but may not occur with zombies.


I don't think zombies would decompose either. Decomposition is initiated by the bacteria living inside your gut during your life. We've been told that the virus is toxic to most other life so it may well just kill off the bacteria and insects that would decompose the body. This just leaves weathering.

It's the damage they do during the start bit and the fact they have no ability to repair tissue damage that makes the stop bit redundant though.

We've also been lead to believe that zombies don't have the protection our muscles do from over exertion. That being a mental block that prevents us from using our muscles to their full potential outside of a life threatening event.

Zombies could potentially over exert themselves every time they sprint or move. If they run with the full ability of their muscles they will literally tear their muscles apart from the very beginning. While the out of shape people that you saw running the marathon are doing the same thing (almost, they don't run the second half of the marathon nearly as quick as the first so their brain has already started throttling back muscle strength) they don't go on to run another marathon the next day. They spend the next week hobbling around while their tissue repairs. Zombies would just continue to tear their muscles even more bringing about rapid tissue damage.

In a horde a zombie may not be able to tell ally from prey, they may well make the effort to attack anything that moves. All these kind of things would lead me to believe that after infection a person will get sick and dementia like conditions will set in with violent tendencies, while they will have super strength leading up to their death it will be uncoordinated. By the time they do die, which won't be a fall down dead event I think it'll be a slow and seamless process they'll have done significant damage to a proportion of their muscles to disfigure their stance and gape.

When they are dead they simply don't have the cognitive ability or muscle condition to carry out complex movements. For the most part once they fall over they won't be able to get up again. Within a relatively short amount of time, probably 2 - 3 weeks or so most zombies will be scuttling around the ground. Their fingers will have been ground down to the bone, probably knees too.

As I said earlier, I would tend to fall into the same school of thought as yourself with regards to what zeds can or cannot do, and how they would be in terms of motion etc.



But in my early post I was playing devils advocate to a degree whilst still trying to stay more or less within the parameters of real world physics and biology.

If we accept that the dead can rise/reanimate and that they will be governed by real world physics/biology once they have risen, we then have to take into account that there may be variances with regards to things like whether or not the undead corpse can create lactic acids or something similar, whether or not the human physiology would have a set of failsafes to protect itself in an undead form.

My own take is that the undead body will run into a lot of operating problems very quickly. Problems that will get worse due to a lack of recuperative abilities and a lack of natural limiters, but it is not too much of a stretch to imagine some of those abilities, or a variation of some of them, surfacing in the undead which are in their own way a mutation or variance on a regular living human.

Giving that I threw out a Watchman quote in this forum yesterday, I think I will throw out another in this thread.

A live body and a dead body contain the same number of particles. Structurally, there’s no discernible difference. Life and death are unquantifiable abstracts

It is a line in a comic book that is far more than just a cool sounding collection of lines. It actually hits the nail on the head with regards to how blurry the lines are between what we currently know of the differences between alive and not alive.

The minute we accept the idea of the not alives being able to get around and be a threat to us, then we open up a series of possibilities that can exist quite easily even within the parameters of modern science and medicine.

Now one could take that logic a step further and say that the presence of electrical activity between those particles in the live body and the absence of such in the dead body may suggest that, based on the premise that energy cannot be created nor destroyed, the electrical energy has been converted into another form during the transformation from live to not alive, and it has now become another form of energy activity between particles. Thus opening up a veritable Pandora's box of theoritically valid premises with regards to the undead physiology.


It's all good in my eyes though, because it does not really matter if Z-Day brings shufflers, sprinters, or Z- rats as you are going to be my test subject to shove into the open to see how fast/coordinated/intelligent the zeds may or may not be.;)

degrassinoel

endacl wrote: »

Hey OP. Seeing as this is a hypothetical scenario, can I be Batman? If I can be Batman, either option is cool with me. Wouldn't fancy any zombie's chances against Batman. And even if I was bitten/infected...... Zombie Batman!! How cool would that be?!?

it'd be REALLY cool...

If this was a DC comics forum.

If you cant contribute anything but sarcasm to the topic, you should think about posting elsewhere.

Zomg Okay

Kess73 wrote: »

looking at blurs of movement outside before hearing a door or window shatter downstairs?

Thanks for that image. S'alright, I wasn't planning on sleeping tonight anyway.

El Inho

Have to be slow for 3 years. If z-day comes hell i want it to last! :P

But no seriously, if it were to happen, slow is much easier to handle. Spread of infection would be reduced and the entire human race could cope better.

Considering the biological dependency of zack on the human body, realistically do we have to worry? The average person is hardly that fast as it is right? I dont have to out run the cheetah just have to out run you idea.

Plus imagine repelling a wave just to see more and more coming...while if they are slow, seeing them coming might not even stop one from finishing their defenses.