Diesels running costs warning

Stallingrad

Kind of backs up what a lot of people here have been saying for some time...

Which? has confirmed Honest John's warnings that the running costs of diesel cars can often outweigh their economy benefits, particularly after the cars pass three years old.

Despite superior fuel economy and usually lower car tax, a Which? investigation has found that new diesel cars are often more expensive to run than petrol cars.

This year is set to be the first in which diesel cars will make up more than half the new car market. However, a Which? comparison of diesel and petrol versions of six popular car models has found that even when the cars are new, petrol engines can be the more cost effective choice for drivers covering a typical annual mileage.

Diesel engines in the popular BMW 5 Series, Ford Fiesta, Vauxhall Astra, and Volkswagen Tiguan may deliver cheaper fuel bills than their petrol counterparts initially but it takes many years before they actually save the average driver money.

With drivers having to pay a premium for a diesel car, typically £1,000 to £2,000 more on a new car, Which? tests reveal that it could take up to 14 years to recoup the upfront costs in fuel savings. Lower pump prices for petrol and improvements in petrol engine economy mean that petrol cars now often provide better value for money.

The biggest mistake of all is to buy a high mileage 3-year-old ex-fleet diesel car on the false assumption that diesel engines are robust enough to take the mileage and continue to offer fuel economy advantages. All too often, dual mass flywheels, diesel particulate filters, EGRs and turbos fail, potentially landing the car buyer with bills greater than the vale of the car. See FAQ.

Which?’s own fuel-economy tests also often fell short of the manufacturers’ claims for both diesel and petrol cars, meaning that motorists shouldn’t place their faith in official miles per gallon (mpg) figures.

The Which? study also considered reliability, taking information directly from the 2012 Which? Car Survey, which found that petrol cars are generally more reliable than diesels – both in the first three years of their life (the typical warranty period), and even more so between four and eight years-old.

Kenny Logins

Link?

Mr Benevolent

*cough*LPG*cough*

Stallingrad

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Link?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2175111/Great-diesel-myth-They-DONT-save-money-petrol-models-economical-makes-car.html

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/buying-and-selling/2012-07/which-confirms-hidden-costs-of-running-diesel-cars/

MidlandsM

veg oil ~FTW!

Max Power1

Stallingrad wrote: »

With drivers having to pay a premium for a diesel car, typically £1,000 to £2,000 more on a new car, Which? tests reveal that it could take up to 14 years to recoup the upfront costs in fuel savings. Lower pump prices for petrol and improvements in petrol engine economy mean that petrol cars now often provide better value for money.
.

(assuming the article is written for the UK)

Is the rest of the article still true when you consider the 8-10c/litre that diesel is cheaper than petrol here?

Cienciano

But more importantly, when you start up your petrol car, at least it won't sound like a tractor

keithclancy

Max Power1 wrote: »

(assuming the article is written for the UK)

Is the rest of the article still true when you consider the 8-10c/litre that diesel is cheaper than petrol here?

or 1.78 / Liter vs 1.40 / liter here in NL

Although in fairness the ANWB have always said you need to do at least 20000km / year before a Diesel makes sense.

Saying that theres a much higher risk that theres a high repair cost due to the complexity of Diesel engines over Petrol.

Turbo or DMF Failure and you might end up paying 50% of what the car cost you in the first place.

dingus12

Lets look at the mentioned 5 series diesel, A family member of mine bought an e60 2004 530d se manual in FEB 2007 for 35k. With 35 thousand miles on the clock, Since then it has covered 211 thousand miles averaging between 47.7 and 53.3 mpg depending on the length of the journey and driving styles over week long periods. The reason for such unexpected high mpg is the fact that it's manual, and has no DPF along with the efficient dynamics grill flap that the msport does not have. In that time it has had absolutely NO engine parts what so ever apart from service items such as the crank case ventilation filter,not even an auxiliary belt.

It had one dual mass fly wheel and clutch which cost 1100 supplied and fitted by an independent specialist. Swirl flaps removed at 185k at a cost of 100 euro. It is serviced with normal synthetic 5-30w oil and mann oil air and fuel filters every 25k miles, at a cost of about 120 euro each time. It has had a set of tyres every 25-30k and one set of upper and lower control arm ball joints and 2 sets of rear bushings.

Currently the car is driving perfectly, starting at the first rotation of the engine despite having a faulty glow plug control module, suggesting there is still great compression etc. The turbo is fine and the engine burns about 1 litre of oil between services although most of that is from ingesting from the turbo, there for there is no visible oil burning blue smoke as you see with high mileage engines. The car is on it's original diff and gearbox oil and original coolant,power steering,brake and clutch fluid.

Can you honestly say they would have got the same value out of a 530I which would probably average 30-35, not to mention the various engine components a 200k petrol bmw would need.

I doubt it.

vectra

Hand picked cars where the diference is probably great to back up their opinions.

My car for example is much cheaper in diesel option then the petrol counterpart, and would be much lighter on fuel than the petrol model.

Toyotafanboi

dingus12 wrote: »

Lets look at the mentioned 5 series diesel, A family member of mine bought an e60 2004 530d se manual in FEB 2007 for 35k. With 35 thousand miles on the clock, Since then it has covered 211 thousand miles averaging between 47.7 and 53.3 mpg depending on the length of the journey and driving styles over week long periods. The reason for such unexpected high mpg is the fact that it's manual, and has no DPF along with the efficient dynamics grill flap that the msport does not have. In that time it has had absolutely NO engine parts what so ever apart from service items such as the crank case ventilation filter,not even an auxiliary belt.

It had one dual mass fly wheel and clutch which cost 1100 supplied and fitted by an independent specialist. Swirl flaps removed at 185k at a cost of 100 euro. It is serviced with normal synthetic 5-30w oil and mann oil air and fuel filters every 25k miles, at a cost of about 120 euro each time. It has had a set of tyres every 25-30k and one set of upper and lower control arm ball joints and 2 sets of rear bushings.

Currently the car is driving perfectly, starting at the first rotation of the engine despite having a faulty glow plug control module, suggesting there is still great compression etc. The turbo is fine and the engine burns about 1 litre of oil between services although most of that is from ingesting from the turbo, there for there is no visible oil burning blue smoke as you see with high mileage engines. The car is on it's original diff and gearbox oil and original coolant,power steering,brake and clutch fluid.

Can you honestly say they would have got the same value out of a 530I which would probably average 30-35, not to mention the various engine components a 200k petrol bmw would need.

I doubt it.

thats a very rose tinted view of that car.

i have no idea of the relative cost of modern-ish BMW's but i'l hazard a guess that if a 530 petrol was 30k in 2007 when that 530d was 35k then i'd imagine value for money would be similar over the lifetime of the car. specially considering the 1100 euro DMF and clutch replacement and inevitable glow plug module replacement that will be another few hundred quid. that difference which i'm severely guestimating at 6.5-7k would buy a lot of petrol. the 530i might be handy enough on petrol on the long trips you're doing too.

i also snigger at the part in bold. "all the various components a 200k petrol BMW would need". while you openly boast on how you've neglected to maintain your own 200k diesel BMW. 250K miles and never been near box or diff oil, coolant, or brake fluid.

dingus12

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

thats a very rose tinted view of that car.

i have no idea of the relative cost of modern-ish BMW's but i'l hazard a guess that if a 530 petrol was 30k in 2007 when that 530d was 35k then i'd imagine value for money would be similar over the lifetime of the car. specially considering the 1100 euro DMF and clutch replacement and inevitable glow plug module replacement that will be another few hundred quid. that difference which i'm severely guestimating at 6.5-7k would buy a lot of petrol. the 530i might be handy enough on petrol on the long trips you're doing too.

i also snigger at the part in bold. "all the various components a 200k petrol BMW would need". while you openly boast on how you've neglected to maintain your own 200k diesel BMW. 250K miles and never been near box or diff oil, coolant, or brake fluid.

I'm struggling to comprehend the amount of my post you actually read?? First of all the car is not mine, there for I have no reason to boast about it, or it's maintenance. It has 211k not 250k miles. The glow plug module will never be changed as the glow plugs are not needed in Ireland and are merely used for emissions control to heat the engine a bit quicker, as they are supposed to stay on until the coolant temp reaches 30 degrees. I've no idea what the price difference between a 530d and 530I was in 2007 but the average 530d back then was on the markey for 40k, they just got a bargain from a friend of thiers.

Secondly, the gearbox and diff are a "sealed for life" units, there for don't need the oil changed ever, although many enthusiast dispute that and change it anyway, I don't see why when the proof of the pudding is that the gear box on this particular 530d is as good as the day it came out of Germany. Yes the coolant should have been changed, probably more need to do that on a petrol than a diesel, especially the water pump on petrol 6 pot's made by bmw are really well known for getting to hot. They are nick named kettles for this reason. The brake fluid doesn't need changed as it is not boiling under hard braking because it has no water in it. same with the clutch fluid, I'd hazzard a guess less than 1 percent of cars get their clutch fluid changed.

So you guess of 6-7k between the petrol and diesel is well out, and don't forget that if they went to sell the 530d now 04 ones are on the market between 5-7k, thiers is in very good condition, much better than some 100k ones, so let's say they got 5k for it because it's tested and taxed, how much do you reckon you'd get for a 211k mile 530i? 2-3k maybe at the most.

Lastly about the mpg, A 530i might see 35mpg hyper mileing on a 100 mile plus journey, where as if the computer is reset on a 100 mile journey in this particular non dpf manual 530d 57mpg is seen many's a time and that's both trip computer and manually calculated, if you take the cost difference in that fuel usage and milage, I could safely say in my opinion the diesel is better value for money in this case, not all 530d's and 530I's but certainly it is possible.

cadaliac

dingus12 wrote: »

Lets look at the mentioned 5 series diesel, ........................

It had one dual mass fly wheel and clutch which cost 1100 supplied and fitted by an independent specialist. Swirl flaps removed at 185k at a cost of 100 euro. It is serviced with normal synthetic 5-30w oil and mann oil air and fuel filters every 25k miles, at a cost of about 120 euro each time. It has had a set of tyres every 25-30k and one set of upper and lower control arm ball joints and 2 sets of rear bushings.

......

....
........

i
Its about €90 for the synthetic oil alone for a 3 litre diesel engine, so €120 for a service including the correct oil and filters.......
Also, you did well to get the swirl flaps out for a ton. Either way, shouldn't you be servicing the car more regularly than 25,000 mile intervals?

JohnBoy26

Stallingrad wrote: »

Kind of backs up what a lot of people here have been saying for some time...

Which? has confirmed Honest John's warnings that the running costs of diesel cars can often outweigh their economy benefits, particularly after the cars pass three years old.

Despite superior fuel economy and usually lower car tax, a Which? investigation has found that new diesel cars are often more expensive to run than petrol cars.

This year is set to be the first in which diesel cars will make up more than half the new car market. However, a Which? comparison of diesel and petrol versions of six popular car models has found that even when the cars are new, petrol engines can be the more cost effective choice for drivers covering a typical annual mileage.

Diesel engines in the popular BMW 5 Series, Ford Fiesta, Vauxhall Astra, and Volkswagen Tiguan may deliver cheaper fuel bills than their petrol counterparts initially but it takes many years before they actually save the average driver money.

With drivers having to pay a premium for a diesel car, typically £1,000 to £2,000 more on a new car, Which? tests reveal that it could take up to 14 years to recoup the upfront costs in fuel savings. Lower pump prices for petrol and improvements in petrol engine economy mean that petrol cars now often provide better value for money.

The biggest mistake of all is to buy a high mileage 3-year-old ex-fleet diesel car on the false assumption that diesel engines are robust enough to take the mileage and continue to offer fuel economy advantages. All too often, dual mass flywheels, diesel particulate filters, EGRs and turbos fail, potentially landing the car buyer with bills greater than the vale of the car. See FAQ.

Which?’s own fuel-economy tests also often fell short of the manufacturers’ claims for both diesel and petrol cars, meaning that motorists shouldn’t place their faith in official miles per gallon (mpg) figures.

The Which? study also considered reliability, taking information directly from the 2012 Which? Car Survey, which found that petrol cars are generally more reliable than diesels – both in the first three years of their life (the typical warranty period), and even more so between four and eight years-old.

Unfortunatly people will dissmiss this and go out and buy a shiney new diesel oil burner just to go to and from their nearest shop not thinking about a dmf or dpf or anything else associated with running a modern diesel.

All they want is to save a few quid in tax and fuel over the more maintainance friendly petrol equivelant which is madness and has ruined the market for many good petrol cars in this country.

Mr Benevolent

cadaliac wrote: »

Either way, shouldn't you be servicing the car more regularly than 25,000 mile intervals?

True enough. 25k miles (or kilometers) between services is ridiculous.

MuppetCheck

Close on 60mpg from a 3 litre diesel? Was that over a tank? I find that incredibly hard to believe.

George Dalton

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Close on 60mpg from a 3 litre diesel? Was that over a tank? I find that incredibly hard to believe.

I agree, no way was that over a full tank. What the poster doesn't seem to understand is that there is a big difference between seeing 57mpg on the trip computer and actually averaging 57mpg over a meaningful distance.

One of the lads that works for us has an early E60 530D manual and it does 44mpg on average. That is a more realistic figure.

As a comparison I have a W211 Merc E280 CDI auto that does about 37mpg so the BMW actually does quite well to get 44mpg IMO.

recyclebin

The Which article is for England. Straight away there are two differences when you buy a car in Ireland:

1. Diesel is 8-10c cheaper per litre
2. VRT and road tax is based on emissions here.

Let's do our own example using a bog standard golf trendline.

VW Golf, 105 bhp, 5 door, 20000 miles:
Petrol: €22445, €200 road tax, 57.6MPG, 347 Gallons
Diesel: €24395, €180 road tax, 74.3MPG, 269 Gallons

From pumps.ie
Average price of petrol €1.599
Average price of diesel €1.529

Petrol: 347 Gallons = 1577.49 Litres x 1.599 = €2522.41
Diesel: 269 Gallons = 1222.90 Litres x 1.529 = €1869.81

Difference: €652

George Dalton

recyclebin wrote: »

at 20,000 miles that's a difference of around 78 Gallons (295 litres) or a fuel saving of a measly €29.50 euros per year.

Wow. I did not think the savings would be so little. I hope I have the maths right.

295 litres for €29.50? Where do you buy your fuel? :pac:

JohnBoy26

recyclebin wrote: »

road tax is based on emissions here.

And it's not in the UK no?

dingus12

cadaliac wrote: »

i
Its about €90 for the synthetic oil alone for a 3 litre diesel engine, so €120 for a service including the correct oil and filters.......
Also, you did well to get the swirl flaps out for a ton. Either way, shouldn't you be servicing the car more regularly than 25,000 mile intervals?

You missed the part where I said twice that it is not my car, I know fine well it's had a terrible maintenance record. All im saying is, for those sort of yearly mileages, some diesel cars are better value for money, And i Don't know where you are buying you oil, because 5 liters of GM fully synth oil is 30 euro in my local auto factors. Normal none fancy filters and they get a nephew to service it for them for 20 euro.

So to sum it all up, apart from the massive tax, they have got a very cheap near 200k of milage in a very nice powerful car compared to normal 1.6 petrol eco **** box's which would have cost 35k new and be worth less than a 2004 530d is now. And that's assuming the eco ****e box would have been as reliable.

recyclebin

George Dalton wrote: »

295 litres for €29.50? Where do you buy your fuel? :pac:

I've changed it to 354 as I had my gallons to litres wrong.

Then multiply it by the difference in price between petrol and diesel of 10 cent gives €35.40

dingus12

George Dalton wrote: »

I agree, no way was that over a full tank. What the poster doesn't seem to understand is that there is a big difference between seeing 57mpg on the trip computer and actually averaging 57mpg over a meaningful distance.

One of the lads that works for us has an early E60 530D manual and it does 44mpg on average. That is a more realistic figure.

As a comparison I have a W211 Merc E280 CDI auto that does about 37mpg so the BMW actually does quite well to get 44mpg IMO.

You have to see it to believe it, im talking about resetting the mpg calculator when after filling the tank, driving from Dublin to Donegal or where ever, and back, filling it up again, work out how many liters have been used, convert to gallons check the miles traveled and do the math, then have a look at the mpg calculator in the Idrive, which is usually about 1 mpg of.

You need to look at your mates 530d, the dpf's came in in june 04 I think the older ones with out the dpf had a dual tipped exhaust that is curved towards the ground, the ones with a dpf have it coming straight out. Also these car very well known to have at least one of the 2 thermostats to be stuck open, which may be the case on your mates 530d, It is fine on this one there for it can achieve 57mpg on a long run, 47 on a mix of smaller national roads and towns etc.

George Dalton

recyclebin wrote: »

I've changed it to 354 as I had my gallons to litres wrong.

Then multiply it by the difference in price between petrol and diesel of 10 cent gives €35.40

I think you may be doing the maths wrong.

It's 354 litres extra that you have to buy running the petrol that you wouldn't have to buy at all running the diesel so you need to multiply the 354 by the full cost of a litre of petrol.

You also need to multiply the total litres used by the diesel by the difference between petrol and diesel and add that to the first figure to get the total fuel savings for petrol vs diesel.

George Dalton

dingus12 wrote: »

You need to look at your mates 530d, the dpf's came in in june 04 I think the older ones with out the dpf had a dual tipped exhaust that is curved towards the ground, the ones with a dpf have it coming straight out. Also these car very well known to have at least one of the 2 thermostats to be stuck open, which may be the case on your mates 530d, It is fine on this one there for it can achieve 57mpg on a long run, 47 on a mix of smaller national roads and towns etc.

Both 'stats are new so it runs fully up to temp. The MAF is new and the swirl flaps have been removed, the EGR and intake manifold are clean and all vacuum lines have been replaced. Before that work was done it was only doing 40mpg. It's an 03 so definitely has no DPF. I'll take it for a spin tomorrow when I'm going for my lunch, I'll stick it on the cruise control at 55mph and see what mpg it reads

Matt Simis

Dingus, that is interesting feedback, but come on, its a freakcase on a very specific pre-DPF, manual, 8 year old diesel. It also benefits from being a larger (therefore less stressed) CC engine. The average diesel here will have a DPF, a DMF and probably a boosted to the moon 2.0l CC engine tops (or 1.6TDI).

If you step back and look at a straight 6/8 petrol engine without a turbo, really just look at it mechanically, with a simple 12v intank electric fuel pump running at 70psi out to some easy to replace injectors, spark plugs good for 80k miles, engine oil good for longer than most dare, smooth turnover lowering clutch and mount wear. They are clean, simply and consistant design. Sure with junk like FSI (a diesel derivative technology) they have got more unreliable but they are still a world apart mechanically.

Then look at the 26,000 PSI Common Rail diesel engine, twin fuel pumps (one mega one in the engine bay), near welded in injectors running one or two turbos with blow offs, wastegates, dual mass flywheels and excessive engine mounting to try get it not to rock all over the place, smothered in plastics and insulation to hide the noise, an electronic monitored particulate filter system which has its own heat and engine speed requirements not to choke up, an uneven and disruptive spikey torque peak requiring constant (excessive) gear changing to keep in that narrow power band and so on.


Articles like these arent a revelation, its common sense. Diesels are not a free lunch. They absolutely have their uses, but the easy going 211k mile 530d is the charming freak of this story.

recyclebin

George Dalton wrote: »

I think you may be doing the maths wrong.

It's 354 litres extra that you have to buy running the petrol that you wouldn't have to buy at all running the diesel so you need to multiply the 354 by the full cost of a litre of petrol.

You also need to multiply the total litres used by the diesel by the difference between petrol and diesel and add that to the first figure to get the total fuel savings for petrol vs diesel.

I knew something didn't look right. It's been a long day....

From pumps.ie
Average price of petrol €1.599
Average price of diesel €1.529

Petrol: 347 Gallons = 1577.49 Litres x 1.599 = €2522.41
Diesel: 269 Gallons = 1222.90 Litres x 1.529 = €1869.81

Difference: €652

Looks like 3 to 4 years before you make up the difference in purchase price through road tax and fuel savings.

larchill

Cienciano wrote: »

But more importantly, when you start up your petrol car, at least it won't sound like a tractor

Not any more - my 2011 A4 is a vast improvement on the previous 1.9TDI. No more tractors!

George Dalton

recyclebin wrote: »

Looks like 3 to 4 years before you make up the difference in purchase price through road tax and fuel savings.

True but the diesel will be worth substantially more come resale/trade in time so you have to factor that in as well.

mullingar

recyclebin wrote: »

VW Golf, 105 bhp, 5 door, 20000 miles:
Petrol: €22445, €200 road tax, 57.6MPG, 347 Gallons
Diesel: €24395, €180 road tax, 74.3MPG, 269 Gallons

Petrol golf doing 57mpg and diesel doing 74mpg? Lol.

Real life, i would expect a petrol golf at 35 mpg and diesel at 50 mpg

September1

Petrol cars in Ireland depreciate significantly faster than diesel, it is very likely that even with 5k miles per annum diesel would be still over let's say 5 years of ownership.

Vertakill

September1 wrote: »

Petrol cars in Ireland depreciate significantly faster than diesel, it is very likely that even with 5k miles per annum diesel would be still over let's say 5 years of ownership.

But you could also spin that statement and show how much cheaper it is to buy a second-hand petrol car so you'd make even more savings on the petrol over the diesel car.

They've depreciated due to the market (and obviously fuel prices)... the market is made up of mostly consumers who have their rose/diesel tinted glasses on.
The market value of a car isn't a direct translation of how good/bad/frugal it is.

vectra

Vertakill wrote: »

But you could also spin that statement and show how much cheaper it is to buy a second-hand petrol car so you'd make even more savings on the petrol over the diesel car.

They've depreciated due to the market (and obviously fuel prices)... the market is made up of mostly consumers who have their rose/diesel tinted glasses on.
The market value of a car isn't a direct translation of how good/bad/frugal it is.

I thought we were comparing new cars here and not used?

BigEejit

How long until the government starts putting up taxes on diesel at 2x the rate up puts up petrol so that the prices look more like the prices at pumps in the UK

September1

Vertakill wrote: »

But you could also spin that statement and show how much cheaper it is to buy a second-hand petrol car so you'd make even more savings on the petrol over the diesel car.

They've depreciated due to the market (and obviously fuel prices)... the market is made up of mostly consumers who have their rose/diesel tinted glasses on.
The market value of a car isn't a direct translation of how good/bad/frugal it is.

Well, I think you are right but problem is about choosing a new car and someone has to do this to supply people like me who buys only second hand. Current market situation is that regardless of mileage is better to get diesel (with some exceptions like Fiat 500) and thus in few years cars that would be available would be diesel just after warranty expired.

Would people start including costs of fixing and suddenly diesel cars would be cheaper second hand than equivalent petrol? Or maybe by then road tax based on CO2 would be so absurdly high that fixing would be not issue? I think if problems would be widespread then costs of parts and labour would go down due to mass production.