Corruption Perceptions Index 2012

Eggy Baby!

I was surprised not to see a thread on these forums about this, but anyway, despite last years index being rather old news, I only came across the index yesterday.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

Before I get into the results: yes, I know it says "Perceptions Index". As such we have to take these sort of things with a grain of salt. And yes, I do know that its actually impossible to put a value on the corruption in a country. But, as it is really the only comprehensive corruption index there is, and it is generally accurate in its reflection, I consider it trustworthy.

But, I digress.

Ireland has been nosediving for the past few years. In 2010 it scored an 8.0 (out of 10, ten being the most squeaky clean state, 0 being the worst) but in 2012 it scored 69 (out of 100, so equivalent to 6.9 on the old scoring system). That's a drop of 1.1. Ireland fell, in two years, from 14th to joint 25th with Austria. Now, whether that's a surveyed reaction to the growing distrust of government due to the recession and all the fun and games that accompany that recession, I don't know.

However, a survey was made regarding the state of corruption in Ireland. It is found here: http://gcb.transparency.org/gcb201011/results/

Over 77% polled said that corruption has increased over the last 3 years in Ireland.

There is, of course, discrepancies regarding the Global Corruption Barometer and the Corruption Perceptions Index. For example, Russia, the shining beacon of transparency, has improved its place on the CPI for the last 3 years running year after year. However, when Russians were polled, 53% said corruption in the country had increased and only 8% said it had decreased.

But back to my main point regarding Ireland.

Has corruption actually increased in this country or is the current economic situation simply bringing the corruption to the forefront?

In other words: has corruption in this country always been present or has it:
-Actually increased due to the recession
or:
-Been particularly focused on due to the recession and thus the perception of it has increased but not the physical corruption itself.

Or both?

Cheers!

cyberhog

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

And yes, I do know that its actually impossible to put a value on the corruption in a country. But, as it is really the only comprehensive corruption index there is, and it is generally accurate in its reflection, I consider it trustworthy.

I do not agree with your contention that the index is accurate.

when perception is used as the sole base in a model that measures corruption, the results can be scientifically inaccurate. Yet, the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) model as devised by Transparency International (TI) is one such model that is based quite on peoples' perceptions and without the support of hard empirical data...

http://www.commentary.com/bribe2.htm

IMO TI's perception reports are deceptive and misleading and cannot be relied on to present the actual situation in a country.

Cookie_Monster

corruption has increased certainly, you just need to look at the growing black markets for various products and the prolific expansion of the cash in hand economy. even the average man on the street is getting involved now, never mind the government and state

My name is URL

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

corruption has increased certainly, you just need to look at the growing black markets for various products and the prolific expansion of the cash in hand economy. even the average man on the street is getting involved now, never mind the government and state

Afaik it's only based on perceptions of corruption within the public sectors, so I'm unsure if things like black markets come into it.

I reckon more people are likely to perceive corruption these days simply because they're less well off than before. There's less of an 'I'm all right Jack' attitude out there.

archer22

I think the recession has made corruption more obvious,people are beginning to see the damage it does and are not as prepared to turn a blind eye to it or even regard it with mild admiration as before.After all the State has been wrecked by it...and its still going on wholesale.I think it will take generations to rid the country of this problem..but Ireland wont have any future until thats done.

Eggy Baby!

I do not agree with your contention that the index is accurate.

I would agree with that to an extent. The results of the index sometimes seem ridiculous. For example, Italy more corrupt than Saudi Arabia? Russia as corrupt as Zimbabwe or the Congo?

These are the only two examples I can think of from the top of my head.

A blogger I read, Anatoly Karlin, attempted to compile several of TIs indices and run them through a formula. As a result, he created the Corruption Realities Index 2010, which can be viewed here:

http://akarlin.com/2011/05/25/corruption-realities-index-2010/

Not saying that I totally agree with it, but here it is anyway so you can make your own assumptions about it.

archer22

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I would agree with that to an extent. The results of the index sometimes seem ridiculous. For example, Italy more corrupt than Saudi Arabia? Russia as corrupt as Zimbabwe or the Congo?

These are the only two examples I can think of from the top of my head.

A blogger I read, Anatoly Karlin, attempted to compile several of TIs indices and run them through a formula. As a result, he created the Corruption Realities Index 2010, which can be viewed here:

http://akarlin.com/2011/05/25/corruption-realities-index-2010/

Not saying that I totally agree with it, but here it is anyway so you can make your own assumptions about it.

When he placed Ireland as honest as New Zealand I decided not to waste any more time reading it .

golfball37

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I would agree with that to an extent. The results of the index sometimes seem ridiculous. For example, Italy more corrupt than Saudi Arabia? Russia as corrupt as Zimbabwe or the Congo?

These are the only two examples I can think of from the top of my head.

A blogger I read, Anatoly Karlin, attempted to compile several of TIs indices and run them through a formula. As a result, he created the Corruption Realities Index 2010, which can be viewed here:

http://akarlin.com/2011/05/25/corruption-realities-index-2010/

Not saying that I totally agree with it, but here it is anyway so you can make your own assumptions about it.

Its completely believable that Russia is as corrupt as any African nation imo. How long is Putin in power now? How many billionaire oligarchs keep him there.

Eggy Baby!

golfball37 wrote: »

Its completely believable that Russia is as corrupt as any African nation imo. How long is Putin in power now? How many billionaire oligarchs keep him there.

There is no evidence to support the viewpoint that Putin is personally corrupt (even then, why does the amount of time he has been in power have anything to do with the level of corruption in the country?) Secondly, why would a systemically corrupt government actively pursue the eradication of corruption in their country? (Look up Putin's many reforms, most of which were designed to make corruption less desireable.) Thirdly, the country is far less corrupt than it was in the 90s, and even then, corruption is not at African levels because Russia's economy has not been as hampered by corruption as that of African countries. Lastly, corruption is concentrated mainly in the police, the army and the civil service.

P.S Russia's corruption levels are similar to other middle income countries, so no, they do not have corruption of African proportion. How you could find this believable boggles the mind.

djpbarry

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Has corruption actually increased in this country or is the current economic situation simply bringing the corruption to the forefront?

I would suggest the latter, although I think it's purely perception. Ireland's current situation is largely due to epic economic mismanagement - no corruption necessary.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

...Italy more corrupt than Saudi Arabia?

Sure, why not? Italy claims to be a modern democracy, whereas Saudi Arabia doesn't claim to be anything other than what it is.

Eggy Baby!

Sure, why not? Italy claims to be a modern democracy, whereas Saudi Arabia doesn't claim to be anything other than what it is.

How does Italy claiming to be a democracy have any influence on the level of corruption in the country?

Its quite clear that Saudi Arabia is a horribly corrupt monarchy (monarchy being by its very nature corrupt)- its in a totally different league to Italy, although yes, Italy is very corrupt.

djpbarry

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Its quite clear that Saudi Arabia is a horribly corrupt monarchy...

I think you're conflating "evil" with "corrupt".

Eggy Baby!

djpbarry wrote: »

I think you're conflating "evil" with "corrupt".

Well the Saudi Arabian government is of course evil but it is also horribly corrupt by its very nature. Imagine the amounts of oil money those princes siphon off- also take into account that they are basically immune from the law (probably due to more bribery)