What is a Golden Ticket?

sligotrain

I'm intrigued. Obviously there's a board parlance for a few things on here but one I don't get is the obsession with the pensioner's free travel pass or as it's known by some here as "the Golden Ticket".

Can someone provide some credible reasons why a pensioner travel pass is somehow the spawn of satan?

Fromthetrees

So two people are about to board a train from Cork to Dublin, one is a pensioner off on holidays with a million euro in their back pocket and is waived onto a train for free while an unemployed person on 188 a week is charged 60 euro on their way to a job interview.

It ain't right.

Maybe if the pensioner with a million euro didn't get on to the train for free than the ticket price for the unemployed person would be 30 euro instead of 60 which would be fairer (farer).

Cookie_Monster

unlimited free travel country wide, how is it not a golden ticket?

There is no need for it at all. By all means offer a substantial discount or even a token minimal fare but to have unlimited free travel simply because you are old or disabled is madness.

MrDerp

In defence of the millionaire pensioner, I'd rather he took a free train to Dublin than drive his S-Class Merc the wrong way down the motorway.

juan.kerr

MrDerp wrote: »

In defence of the millionaire pensioner, I'd rather he took a free train to Dublin than drive his S-Class Merc the wrong way down the motorway.

What has this thread got to do with Jim McDaid?

juan.kerr

The thing that annoys me about the 'Golden Ticket' is that I know it will be long gone by the time I get to retirement age.

Are trere restrictions on when it can be used? E.g. peak time services?

vektarman

juan.kerr wrote: »

Are trere restrictions on when it can be used? E.g. peak time services?

On Dublinbus it used to be restricted to off-peak services, this was extended a few years ago to include peak periods.

Losty Dublin

http://www.taxsaver.ie/Ticket-Types/Annual-Tickets/CIE-All-Services-Irish-Rail-Dublin-Bus--Bus-Eireann/

http://taxsavertickets.luas.ie/

Current costs of annual travel passes for the two main transport holdings here.

To get a better idea of the value and the cost of the scheme, we need to see what it costs the taxpayer and how many people have entitlement to the scheme. This is taken from a PQ from 2nd October 2012.


274. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan <A href="http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp?housetype=0&HouseNum=31&MemberID=106"&gt; asked the Minister for Social Protection if it is anticipated that all free travel passes will contain photo ID in view of the security concerns raised by some senior citizens; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [41377/12]
Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton): The estimated cost of the Free Travel Scheme in 2012 is €77 million for 745,466 registered customers. In addition when companion passes are taken into account there are an estimated 1.2 million people with an entitlement to free travel.

Applying a simple divison exercise of the amount paid divided by all entitled to travel, the State is coughing up a whopping €64.16 per customer. That's not even 1% of the market value of what one would pay Luas and CIE for a similar entitlement. If we go for passholders alone, it costs the State €103.29 each.

As of 2011, the population of Ireland is 4.58 million.

LXFlyer

I think the problem that is being highlighted is not the OAP pass per se, but rather the far greater numbers of passes issued to others who are "incapacitated", and their companions.

juan.kerr

vektarman wrote: »

On Dublinbus it used to be restricted to off-peak services, this was extended a few years ago to include peak periods.

They should probably be restricted to non peak services. Let them pay if they want to use peak time services.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

I think the problem that is being highlighted is not the OAP pass per se, but rather the far greater numbers of passes issued to others who are "incapacitated", and their companions.

I understand that about 55% of the passes are issued to OAP's so that means 45% are issued under other circumstances. That would make over 300,000 passes issued to those under 65 years of age. Allow for companions and you are probably looking at a half million people who can access the scheme.

LXFlyer

Yes - I was referring to the combined numbers when companions are added.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

Yes - I was referring to the combined numbers when companions are added.

Apologies here; I meant to say 500,000 outside of OAPs accessing the scheme. On reflection, the figure of non OAP access is probably greater than this as their spouses/partners are more likely to be alive than OAPs.

sligotrain

The issue for me with the free travel passes is that firstly they should not be available for peak time travel use. Peak time travel needs to be reserved for fare paying passengers who need to get to work.

I have no problem with genuinely disabled passengers using passes but we need to review who is entitled to use them and I specifically would stop the skanger element from using them somehow.

Should the passes be means tested? Absolutely not. Sadly we have this Dickensian obsession with means testing here in Ireland. Citing straw men like "millionaire pensioners" is pure mendaciousness. I think any fool knows that a "miilionaire pensioner" will drive or be driven. Having said that, I believe that most people in this country of pensionable age made many financial sacrifices in their younger days and in my opinion should be entitled to use the free travel, albeit outside peak hours.

This Irish obsession with means testing also is used to justify the lack of universal free health care - Ireland is unique in the European Union in that it does not yet have universal free health care but time and again the national discourse on what should be a basic human right is distorted and abused by the shrill defenders of the status quo.

spank_inferno

sligotrain wrote: »

Ireland is unique in the European Union in that it does not yet have universal free health care.

Sure about that?

And using means as a mechanism for entitlement is not old fashioned.
I would say the days of universal benefit are doomed, once Western governments run out of future generations to mortgate the debt against.

(My own opinion is that the Free travel scheme should be widened to include the job seekers and restricted on the rest).

juan.kerr

spank_inferno wrote: »

(My own opinion is that the Free travel scheme should be widened to include the job seekers and restricted on the rest).

Job seekers while they going to / from interview or other job seeking related activity or for all activities? Biggest issue here would how to police it when the person is no longer job seeking.

Mrs OBumble

I don't agree with means testing (too many of the millionaire pensioners who do use the bus got to be millionaires thru hard work).

But I do support income testing: I don't see that it's fair that an older person person whose annual income is 15k state-pension (guessing the amount there), 20k from a private pension scheme, and 20k from renting out properities should get free travel, while a working person who earns 22k (the salary I was on for a while in 2011) has to pay full fare.

Not sure that the peak / off-peak distinction would help. What is "peak time" for the bus from Galway to Dublin, for example?

spank_inferno

juan.kerr wrote: »

Job seekers while they going to / from interview or other job seeking related activity or for all activities? Biggest issue here would how to police it when the person is no longer job seeking.

Indeed.
Ideally if the travel pass was a smart card requiring a tag on / off.
It could then be easier to disable the card once the user is in employment.

spank_inferno

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I don't agree with means testing

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But I do support income testing

I don't mean to split hairs, but what is the difference?

My income is my "means".

TheChrisD

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but to have unlimited free travel simply because you are old or disabled is madness.

I'd love to see you get around after being told you're permanently unfit for work due to a mental health issue and having €88 a week disposable income after rent.

lxflyer wrote: »

but rather the far greater numbers of passes issued to others who are "incapacitated", and their companions.

So because I'm not physically incapacitated, I shouldn't be entitled to my Disability or my travel pass?

LXFlyer

TheChrisD wrote: »

I'd love to see you get around after being told you're permanently unfit for work due to a mental health issue and having €88 a week disposable income after rent.



So because I'm not physically incapacitated, I shouldn't be entitled to my Disability or my travel pass?

I'm not saying that at all.

I've absolutely no problem with someone having a pass who should have one, be they an OAP or incapacitated (physically or not).

But there do seem to be some people holding such passes who frankly were issued them on a whim.

Losty Dublin

TheChrisD wrote: »

I'd love to see you get around after being told you're permanently unfit for work due to a mental health issue and having €88 a week disposable income after rent.

There's a lot of people out there who are working and who have a lower disposable income than that.

Cheshire Cat

sligotrain wrote: »

Ireland is unique in the European Union in that it does not yet have universal free health care but time and again the national discourse on what should be a basic human right is distorted and abused by the shrill defenders of the status quo.

Try Germany. NO free universal health care, but everybody is obliged to have health insurance. http://www.toytowngermany.com/wiki/Health_insurance

We paid a fortune for health insurance over there.

parsi

spank_inferno wrote: »

I don't mean to split hairs, but what is the difference?

My income is my "means".

Broadly speaking "means" includes your assets even if they don't provide an actual income.

So you could be in a job earning 47K but have a fixed asset with a value of 750K.

Mrs OBumble

parsi wrote: »

Broadly speaking "means" includes your assets even if they don't provide an actual income.

So you could be in a job earning 47K but have a fixed asset with a value of 750K.

Correct.

Or even more extreme, someone could have a house that was worth 750k when they purchased it, current value is unclear (because it's not been sold or not the market), and now be in a minimum wage.

There will always be some unfairness (eg farmers who have very little official income, but whose business requires them to live on-site etc). But in general I'd support free travel that was income tested, and within a certain radius of home (eg 20km, or to the next major town).

Total madness that we pay for some rich OAPs to travel up to Dublin for lunch with their friends.

parsi

Those of us who mutter about Golden Tickets don't have any problem with OAPs who have paid tax for their working life. We don't have problems with people who have disabilities who need travel. We don't have problems with parents who have to bring their kids to specialist care centres.

I have a problem with folk riding the system or who get a golden ticket for vague needs.

I have problems with folk who have a golden ticket and use it to provide free delivery for items they sell on DoneDeal or Adverts.

If you're not an OAP then your ticket is to facilitate travel to/from a medical facility. It's not provided to deliver mobile broadband dongles, pushcairs, ipads ram, guitars or laptops to people in other counties. It's not to perform a census of which toilets in bus stations have peepholes for perverts (unless you're a pervert).

Jamie2k9

Total madness that we pay for some rich OAPs to travel up to Dublin for lunch with their friends

Indeed and a system like medical card being replaced by a GP card for people over €600 per week introduced. If above €600 (still to high IMO should be 300) the the pass taken and one issued for medical travel only.

Better regulation needed and replaced with cards ie like the Leap and a free passenger removed unless for medical reasons.

parsi

According to foggy_lad the golden ticket allows you to view perverts in bus stations all around the country.

It's scary that a lad from Carlow has encountered this behaviour in Letterkenny http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82476701&postcount=28