''They were right-Home Rule was Rome Rule...''

The National Framework

A lecturer at my university one day, famously said, that ''Unionists were right in saying that Home Rule was Rome Rule''. This was a reference to the the power and influence in which the Catholic Church held in the nwe twenty six county state. Do you agree with this statement? It's not the first time I've heard this statement mentioned but I was more surprised to hear it coming from a lecturer.

The reasons why I think this statement is false is first, because Home Rule was never established. The elevation of the Catholic Chrurch in the twenty Six Counties was morse so because of partition and not Home Rule, two completely separate things.
And secondly, even If Home Rule was established in the entire 32 counties, then Unionist and Protestant involvment in the new divolved government would of been enough to limit the influence of the Catholic Church held.

If there is any reason why the Catholic Church were so powerful in the twenty six counties is because of partition- a British manifestation, and not Home Rule. I think there is a clear distinction between both and this needs to be emphasized when dispelling Unionist propaganda from historical fact.

What do you think?

garbanzo

Not a fan of ulster unionism but I tell ya...judging by how things panned out in the Free State/Republic Carson & Co were mighty prescient. 100% bang on.

In saying that I am not for one second condoning the manner in which they ran NI as a veritable cold house for catholics. But to answer your OP I believe home rule did turn out to be rome rule.

CLOSE THREAD !

Peregrinus

It's hard to know how different an independent Ireland with a 20% protestant minority would have been, as compared with what actually happened. The Catholic church was already very influential in Ireland even before independence - just look at its domination of the national education system - and would undoubtedly have become more so. In a Westminster system a 20% minority is not necessarily any more influential than a 5% minority, especially if there is no civil war and Sinn Fein does not split into Cumman na Gael and Fianna Fail. It all depends, really, on whether the unionists reluctantly dragooned into an independent united Ireland could and would have used their position to exploit disagreements within Sinn Fein, and to favour more moderate and liberal elements.

crockholm

I am genuinely perplexed by the "Rome Rule" stance. Im from rural Ireland,mid 30s, but have never seen the outright dominance of the rcc, I even remember my grandmother being staunchly pro choice, yet catholic, and ire being drawn down on a priest who she vehemently disagreed with.
of course,because I didn't understand or just didn't see as an all enveloping catholicism, is not saying it did not happen.
Im just not sure exactly what rome rule and total deference to the orders looked like,sorry if I appear to derail the thread.

kabakuyu

crockholm wrote: »

I am genuinely perplexed by the "Rome Rule" stance. Im from rural Ireland,mid 30s, but have never seen the outright dominance of the rcc, I even remember my grandmother being staunchly pro choice, yet catholic, and ire being drawn down on a priest who she vehemently disagreed with.
of course,because I didn't understand or just didn't see as an all enveloping catholicism, is not saying it did not happen.
Im just not sure exactly what rome rule and total deference to the orders looked like,sorry if I appear to derail the thread.

No derailment here,on the contrary, other opinions and experiences should be heard.I have had very similar experienes to you,grew up in a town(pop.20000) in the 60's and 70's and on a personal level the RCC had no influence in my daily life or on that of my parents and older siblings.The RCC had no power or authority over lots of people and were generally ignored by my contemporaries, but I do acknowledge they did impinge on moral issues like divorce and contraception.

lottpaul

kabakuyu wrote: »

on a personal level the RCC had no influence in my daily life or on that of my parents and older siblings.The RCC had no power or authority over lots of people and were generally ignored by my contemporaries, but I do acknowledge they did impinge on moral issues like divorce and contraception.

I think you might find that the RCC had far greater influence than you think.
Just to mention a few

• the size of families in the 40s, 50s 60s etc because couples had no access to contraception - in line with Catholic teaching only - with implications for the health of women and the living standards of the whole family
• the books you could read, the films you saw in your local cinema etc were all strictly censored along lines of Catholic morality - I'd say authors like Edna O'Brien might have a thing or two to say about the influence of the RCC
• most people dont realise that divorce was available - in a very limited way - in the early years of the Irish Free State but as it contravened Catholic teaching it was removed and later banned in the 1937 constitution, despite the objections of the Protestant churches
• The schools that most people attended were owned and managed by the RCC (still are in most cases) and teaching on moral and other issues adhered strictly to Catholic doctrine, to the exclusion even of discussion of other viewpoints
• if you wanted to train as a primary teacher before the 1980s or so admission to the training colleges had to be accompanied by a baptismal cert. The only non RCC college was the C of I college in Rathmines which accepted people of all faiths but was extremely small and could only take a fraction of the numbers that the Catholic colleges could
• appointments to certain public posts were regarded by the RCC as being exclusive to Catholics as can be seen by the furore about the appointment of a Protestant librarian in Mayo
• With only one or two exceptions all hospitals were under the control of the Catholic church and followed Catholic teachings on all medical matters. In addition - even though these hospitals were state funded and treated all members of the community every corridor, ward and room had religious statues, crucifixes and other symbols
• have you ever looked around at the number of Catholic shrines built on the roadside - especially to mark the Marian years and so on? These are not on church property - that's theirs to use as they would wish - but on public streets, roads, parks and so on
• the insistence of the RCC that in mixed marriages all children should be brought up as Catholics was a concerted effort -- successful in most places - to eliminate minority religions
• the ubiquitous blessing by a Catholic priest of all public buildings, new roads, aircraft, trains and so on - endless -- and even if a protestant minister was invited along he was given a very minor role - if any
• the Mass which seemed to precede every public event was hardly inclusive - e.g, Civic Masses were traditionally said in many Cathedrals and in at least one case when it was discovered that the Mayor was actually a Protestant their invitation to read a lesson at the Mass was withdrawn
• even things like Old Folks parties held by councils etc were preceded by Mass and protestant attendees were expected to turn up after it had finished
• walk around most local authority graveyards and you will notice that there is a small section reserved for non-Catholics and the rest is for Catholics. Even in death the RCC insisted that there should be no mingling (again - note these are local authority graveyards, they do not belong to the RCC but the wishes of the Catholic church were complied with)

And I could go on.


Sometimes the influence of a church can be so pervasive that you don't really notice it being there.


I'm not saying that the RCC church didn't do great good and helped many people but to say that it had no influence on the lives of people 30-50 years ago is just not true

kabakuyu

lottpaul wrote: »

I think you might find that the RCC had far greater influence than you think.
Just to mention a few

• the size of families in the 40s, 50s 60s etc because couples had no access to contraception - in line with Catholic teaching only - with implications for the health of women and the living standards of the whole family
• the books you could read, the films you saw in your local cinema etc were all strictly censored along lines of Catholic morality - I'd say authors like Edna O'Brien might have a thing or two to say about the influence of the RCC
• most people dont realise that divorce was available - in a very limited way - in the early years of the Irish Free State but as it contravened Catholic teaching it was removed and later banned in the 1937 constitution, despite the objections of the Protestant churches
• The schools that most people attended were owned and managed by the RCC (still are in most cases) and teaching on moral and other issues adhered strictly to Catholic doctrine, to the exclusion even of discussion of other viewpoints
• if you wanted to train as a primary teacher before the 1980s or so admission to the training colleges had to be accompanied by a baptismal cert. The only non RCC college was the C of I college in Rathmines which accepted people of all faiths but was extremely small and could only take a fraction of the numbers that the Catholic colleges could
• appointments to certain public posts were regarded by the RCC as being exclusive to Catholics as can be seen by the furore about the appointment of a Protestant librarian in Mayo
• With only one or two exceptions all hospitals were under the control of the Catholic church and followed Catholic teachings on all medical matters. In addition - even though these hospitals were state funded and treated all members of the community every corridor, ward and room had religious statues, crucifixes and other symbols
• have you ever looked around at the number of Catholic shrines built on the roadside - especially to mark the Marian years and so on? These are not on church property - that's theirs to use as they would wish - but on public streets, roads, parks and so on
• the insistence of the RCC that in mixed marriages all children should be brought up as Catholics was a concerted effort -- successful in most places - to eliminate minority religions
• the ubiquitous blessing by a Catholic priest of all public buildings, new roads, aircraft, trains and so on - endless -- and even if a protestant minister was invited along he was given a very minor role - if any
• the Mass which seemed to precede every public event was hardly inclusive - e.g, Civic Masses were traditionally said in many Cathedrals and in at least one case when it was discovered that the Mayor was actually a Protestant their invitation to read a lesson at the Mass was withdrawn
• even things like Old Folks parties held by councils etc were preceded by Mass and protestant attendees were expected to turn up after it had finished
• walk around most local authority graveyards and you will notice that there is a small section reserved for non-Catholics and the rest is for Catholics. Even in death the RCC insisted that there should be no mingling (again - note these are local authority graveyards, they do not belong to the RCC but the wishes of the Catholic church were complied with)

And I could go on.


Sometimes the influence of a church can be so pervasive that you don't really notice it being there.


I'm not saying that the RCC church didn't do great good and helped many people but to say that it had no influence on the lives of people 30-50 years ago is just not true

All valid points but perhaps this all pervasive influence and symbolism affected different people in different ways, I can only speak from my own personal observations and experiences and it did not really impact on me or my family but then we were not very religious but other more orthodox catholics did indeed adhere strictly to the doctrine.Pehaps I should have stated that the Church had no inluence in my own personal faith and beliefs even though they did have an extensive physical and symbolic presence.

Manach

When I was growing up, I would have been aware of a certain degree of deference towards the RCC. This in retrospective would have been in part due to their organisation structure that was well developed and organised and that there were comparative ideologies that were portrayed as inheritantly wrong (something that perhaps Chomsky referenced to in another context). In other hand, there was both a general level of respect engendered by the lower ranking clergy for both hard work done in the community and their taking a role in local matters to help people which the State had overlooked.

crockholm

lottpaul wrote: »

I think you might find that the RCC had far greater influence than you think.
Just to mention a few

• the size of families in the 40s, 50s 60s etc because couples had no access to contraception - in line with Catholic teaching only - with implications for the health of women and the living standards of the whole family
• the books you could read, the films you saw in your local cinema etc were all strictly censored along lines of Catholic morality - I'd say authors like Edna O'Brien might have a thing or two to say about the influence of the RCC
• most people dont realise that divorce was available - in a very limited way - in the early years of the Irish Free State but as it contravened Catholic teaching it was removed and later banned in the 1937 constitution, despite the objections of the Protestant churches
• The schools that most people attended were owned and managed by the RCC (still are in most cases) and teaching on moral and other issues adhered strictly to Catholic doctrine, to the exclusion even of discussion of other viewpoints
• if you wanted to train as a primary teacher before the 1980s or so admission to the training colleges had to be accompanied by a baptismal cert. The only non RCC college was the C of I college in Rathmines which accepted people of all faiths but was extremely small and could only take a fraction of the numbers that the Catholic colleges could
• appointments to certain public posts were regarded by the RCC as being exclusive to Catholics as can be seen by the furore about the appointment of a Protestant librarian in Mayo
• With only one or two exceptions all hospitals were under the control of the Catholic church and followed Catholic teachings on all medical matters. In addition - even though these hospitals were state funded and treated all members of the community every corridor, ward and room had religious statues, crucifixes and other symbols
• have you ever looked around at the number of Catholic shrines built on the roadside - especially to mark the Marian years and so on? These are not on church property - that's theirs to use as they would wish - but on public streets, roads, parks and so on
• the insistence of the RCC that in mixed marriages all children should be brought up as Catholics was a concerted effort -- successful in most places - to eliminate minority religions
• the ubiquitous blessing by a Catholic priest of all public buildings, new roads, aircraft, trains and so on - endless -- and even if a protestant minister was invited along he was given a very minor role - if any
• the Mass which seemed to precede every public event was hardly inclusive - e.g, Civic Masses were traditionally said in many Cathedrals and in at least one case when it was discovered that the Mayor was actually a Protestant their invitation to read a lesson at the Mass was withdrawn
• even things like Old Folks parties held by councils etc were preceded by Mass and protestant attendees were expected to turn up after it had finished
• walk around most local authority graveyards and you will notice that there is a small section reserved for non-Catholics and the rest is for Catholics. Even in death the RCC insisted that there should be no mingling (again - note these are local authority graveyards, they do not belong to the RCC but the wishes of the Catholic church were complied with)

And I could go on.


Sometimes the influence of a church can be so pervasive that you don't really notice it being there.


I'm not saying that the RCC church didn't do great good and helped many people but to say that it had no influence on the lives of people 30-50 years ago is just not true

A very well researched piece and many valid points, i come from the handicap of being from a more homogenous area, the protestant community had gotten smaller and moved by the time i grew up, my granduncle was the CoI's drinking pal however.
just to touch on some points
probably our most famous rcc/coi child was paul hewson,he was brought up coi
In all my years of education,we had a priest in the class probably 10 times, nothing controversial was said,iirc
many of the above points I have not witnessed having only been to an opening of a new shed.
I do find the censorship7book-banning quite sinister