....flightwise late 2011

Sadderday

I bought a 30 minute voucher direct with flightwise for the aul lads birthday. Bought in July. nearly €100.

Had to hound, email, phone, email, phone for months in order to finally see him go up in the plane in December.

The voucher was due to expire in late Dec anyway, kept getting told it takes 10 days to confirm bookings, told booking offices closed for month of august, told couldnt fly the night before a booking made in Sept as plane had issue. This is fine, i understand weather, technical issues.. whatever... but had to send a snappy email to be prioritised. How long am I supposed to be put off for to cater for others. I should have been phoned and sorted as soon as the plane was.

Anyway, he went up, loved it!!! and do you know what.... The ten one hour sessions that we booked for his next birthday... we went elsewhere.

why o why?

Fair play. Seems disorganised alright.

I think it was Flightwise that a friend went to and was charged for an instructor fee having been shown how to use the fuel pumps in Weston! Another guy had to do a 6 hour check out (didn't fly with him so don't know his skill level but seems a little excessive).

Same goes for any service I suppose. If they aren't playing ball go elsewhere.

Sadderday

yeah defo... was just a buyer beware... after all when you purchase a voucher... you expect to have to wait for availability to utilise it... but it seems from reading older posts that i wasnt the only one that had to wait six months.... and you are certainly not advised of the lenghty wait when you do purchase the voucher.... so if your buying and expecting to fly a couple of weeks later on a nice sunny day, its alot more hassle than anticipated

Fully Established

why o why? wrote: »

Another guy had to do a 6 hour check out (didn't fly with him so don't know his skill level but seems a little excessive).Quote]
I think you answered your own quote their is no time limit on a check out , it is all about the pilots ability and knowledge , i think if you dig a bit deeper you will find all student pilots dont get to PPL level at the same time again because of their ability some get it a lot quicker than others , and the other major factor in a checkout is the differences between the aircraft being trained on as to the one previously flown.

why o why?

Fully Established wrote: »

I think you answered your own quote their is no time limit on a check out , it is all about the pilots ability and knowledge , i think if you dig a bit deeper you will find all student pilots dont get to PPL level at the same time again because of their ability some get it a lot quicker than others , and the other major factor in a checkout is the differences between the aircraft being trained on as to the one previously flown.

I get that and that could possibly have been the case. But charging somebody to learn how to use a fuel pump (literally a few mins) is definitely excessive! But suppose Flightwise is connected somehow to PTC so would make sense, no?

Xpro

why o why? wrote: »

I get that and that could possibly have been the case. But charging somebody to learn how to use a fuel pump (literally a few mins) is definitely excessive! But suppose Flightwise is connected somehow to PTC so would make sense, no?

I think you are confusing Flightwise with Skytrace. They were the ones associated with PTC.

Fully Established

why o why? wrote: »

I get that and that could possibly have been the case. But charging somebody to learn how to use a fuel pump (literally a few mins) is definitely excessive! But suppose Flightwise is connected somehow to PTC so would make sense, no?

Yes i fully agree that it is completely wrong to charge students to work a fuel pump to fuel an aircraft , i would have also taught it would not be the students place to physically fuel the aircraft , yes in the planning of the flight to work out the fuel required but thats the only fuelling input a student should have.
I am not too sure if Flightwise is connected to PTC .

phonypony

why o why? wrote: »

... and was charged for an instructor fee having been shown how to use the fuel pumps in Weston!

That's fairly disgusting to be honest and not in the spirit of general aviation. Shame.

phonypony

Fully Established wrote: »

i would have also taught it would not be the students place to physically fuel the aircraft , yes in the planning of the flight to work out the fuel required but thats the only fuelling input a student should have.

I'd disagree with that, when you're let loose visiting airfields on your own often you'll have to self-serve from a bowser or pumps. Best to have some supervised experience in the procedures!

Fully Established

phonypony wrote: »

I'd disagree with that, when you're let loose visiting airfields on your own often you'll have to self-serve from a bowser or pumps. Best to have some supervised experience in the procedures!

I think your mixing things up as a student you do a solo qualifying cross country flight . Normally with one person on board the aircraft would have the endurance to do the 150nm trip without refuelling and when your off visiting other airfields this is usually when your training has finished and you are no longer a student you are in fact a PPL holder.

phonypony

Fully Established wrote: »

I think your mixing things up as a student you do a solo qualifying cross country flight . Normally with one person on board the aircraft would have the endurance to do the 150nm trip without refuelling and when your off visiting other airfields this is usually when your training has finished and you are no longer a student you are in fact a PPL holder.

That's why I believe it's best to have the experience as a student, not when you're on your own figuring it out for yourself. It's like a learner driver passing his test having only ever driven on back roads and in small towns; when he's let loose on a motorway for the first time after passing, he's an accident waiting to happen. From day one as a student pilot I was expected to get the fuel truck, fuel the aircraft, top up the oil etc. I think it's only right.

why o why?

Xpro wrote: »

I think you are confusing Flightwise with Skytrace. They were the ones associated with PTC.

Apologies. My bad.

FWVT

phonypony wrote: »

That's why I believe it's best to have the experience as a student, not when you're on your own figuring it out for yourself. It's like a learner driver passing his test having only ever driven on back roads and in small towns; when he's let loose on a motorway for the first time after passing, he's an accident waiting to happen. From day one as a student pilot I was expected to get the fuel truck, fuel the aircraft, top up the oil etc. I think it's only right.

Yeah but not on a fecking voucher flight!

LeftBase

Irish flight schools are going to the Dogs a little.

Heard a story of a guy looking to build time told that the ceilings were going to get too low up in the Midlands for his planned nav to Sligo. Then minutes later he overheard one of the school's integrated students dispatched on a solo nav to Sligo....

That's hearsay mind you but from what I hear of events back home it fits with the current "trend" in flight school ops!

phonypony

FWVT wrote: »

Yeah but not on a fecking voucher flight!

Of course not on an intro flight, no-one's suggesting that.

Sadderday

this was just something my aul lad wanted to do... wasnt training for a pilot licence so a bit of a mickey mouse booking... but still in fairness we felt as if we were being pawned off to cater for the more important/expensive bookings.

In the end, we had lost interest in the idea and kept pushing for a booking so we didnt let the aulfella down.

He loved it in the end, it is a great gift.. but what a load of hassle for 30 minutes in a plane.

When your calls are never returned and you keep ringing and keep getting told different things your bound to get fed up.

Cessna_Pilot

LeftBase wrote: »

Irish flight schools are going to the Dogs a little.

Heard a story of a guy looking to build time told that the ceilings were going to get too low up in the Midlands for his planned nav to Sligo. Then minutes later he overheard one of the school's integrated students dispatched on a solo nav to Sligo....

That's hearsay mind you but from what I hear of events back home it fits with the current "trend" in flight school ops!

If that was me, I would be making the decision whether to go or not, not the school! It's MY licence, and my command decision! Did he not look at the forecast/weather himself!

LeftBase

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

If that was me, I would be making the decision whether to go or not, not the school! It's MY licence, and my command decision! Did he not look at the forecast/weather himself!

Well I'm not 100% sure of the exact details. But I suppose if they wont give you an airplane that undermines your command position some what.....:D

DieselPowered

Sadderday wrote: »

I bought a 30 minute voucher direct with flightwise for the aul lads birthday. Bought in July. nearly €100.The voucher was due to expire in late Dec anyway,

FYI.... Flying vouchers cannot expire. they are cash. Cash does not expire. If the flying school is telling you this, threaten them with legal you know what.
For someone to say they expire, well this is just at their discretion, not that the voucher is no longer valid.

I have a lot of working experience in this area, if you need more inside info, send me a PM. I hate to see stories like this online about flying organizations who try to have it all and delivery nothing but bad taste.

CharlieOscar

Flightwise sold nearly 700 vouchers on Living Social lately, approx €35k in revenue after the living social take their cut. I really think they should invest in another aircraft in order to cater for the "expected" demand.

I would say if the get a 1% take up on a PPL course they would be doing well out of the voucher strategy.

I can see alot of disappointed folk not being able to use their vouchers in the foreseeable.

Will be interesting to see all the complaints flowing in there shortly.

phonypony

CharlieOscar wrote: »

Flightwise sold nearly 700 vouchers on Living Social lately, approx €35k in revenue after the living social take their cut. I really think they should invest in another aircraft in order to cater for the "expected" demand.

But unfortunately revenue doesn't = profit. An hours worth of AVGAS would be €60-75, add in insurance, airfield landing/hangarage fees, instructor wages, maintenance, admin etc... I can't imagine any flying school turns a profit from such voucher schemes, it only gives them a little potential for some new students. Your 1% is probably about right.

No.username

How are these cowboys still getting away with this? I had the exact same problem as the OP, see below threads - this is not an isolated incident. You will see the manager of the flying school even replied in one of the threads!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73530255

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056383373?page=1#post_74297558

ian_m

Flightwise and Living Social = bad combination. Flightwise did not return one of my calls when I attempted to make a booking using a voucher. We then had to fight livingsocial for our money back.

Two words based on personal experience: Never Again.

DeltaDev

I bought one of these vouchers on Living Social; a 1 hour intro flight. I phoned Flightwise before Christmas. They answered straight away. I booked the flight for a Sunday at the end of January. They asked me to email them with the voucher details and my preferred date and time for the flight and said they would respond that evening -and they did!
So I am hopeful that it will all be fine; weather permitting etc. Will keep you posted but can't complain about them so far!

dingding

DeltaDev wrote: »

I bought one of these vouchers on Living Social; a 1 hour intro flight. I phoned Flightwise before Christmas. They answered straight away. I booked the flight for a Sunday at the end of January. They asked me to email them with the voucher details and my preferred date and time for the flight and said they would respond that evening -and they did!
So I am hopeful that it will all be fine; weather permitting etc. Will keep you posted but can't complain about them so far!

How did your flight go.

Stovepipe

Hi all,
Make a complaint to the consumer affairs people (Dermot Jewell) and also to the consumer affairs journos in the newspapers (Conor Pope and the like) because quite often, a complaint in a public space like the Irish Times has a remarkable effect on the ability of voucher sellers to cough up.Voucher sellers of any kind should not sell them unless they are prepared to keep up their side of the bargain. Anyone who has a voucher, see if you can take a flight during the week, as it's often much easier to get a flight.Always, keep the pressure on the school to do their duty..........@CessnaPilot, the same happened to me, so I complained to the Boss of the school, who fobbed me off, so I took my business elsewhere.

regards
Stovepipe

boboldpilot

No excuse trying to fob people off on voucher flights. It's well known that vouchers are effectively free money for most organisations. Because a certain proportion of them are never used. So when people want to use them, messing them about is out of order. In the end bad service like that will always end up on websites like this.

However certain vouchers are often oversold and result in people being disappointed.

I actually won a voucher for a flying lesson once from the late Topgifts. That was quite amusing. But really I'd have preferred a ride in a Ferrari or a helicopter. As it happens I was visiting the flight school in question and decided to use it. But you had to book it through Topgifts and there was a song and dance about booking in advance. I said 'But I'm standing here at the airport, ready to go!' In the end I had to get the receptionist to talk them into it. But I suppose I'm sure they never anticipated the winner taking a solo flight!

DieselPowered

boboldpilot wrote: »

No excuse trying to fob people off on voucher flights. It's well known that vouchers are effectively free money for most organisations. Because a certain proportion of them are never used. So when people want to use them, messing them about is out of order. In the end bad service like that will always end up on websites like this.

However certain vouchers are often oversold and result in people being disappointed.

I actually won a voucher for a flying lesson once from the late Topgifts. That was quite amusing. But really I'd have preferred a ride in a Ferrari or a helicopter. As it happens I was visiting the flight school in question and decided to use it. But you had to book it through Topgifts and there was a song and dance about booking in advance. I said 'But I'm standing here at the airport, ready to go!' In the end I had to get the receptionist to talk them into it. But I suppose I'm sure they never anticipated the winner taking a solo flight!

Two points I don't see brought up

- organisations don't get money and gain anything due to un-redeemed vouchers. The parent advertiser (Living Social, Groupon) retain the money until they are cashed in by the flying school. This goes for all discount vouchers sold through these companies.

- The flying school can indeed limit the amount sold. Why would they sell more than they can cater for? (not just sell whatever is bought in the time frame).

DeltaDev

An update on my experiences. The flying lesson was cancelled due to inclement weather. No problem; it really was not suitable for flying. They asked me for alternative dates, which I gave them and have had subsequently had to postpone once more (my fault). So I am planning on getting up in a couple of weeks time. Have to say, Flightwise have been accommodating so far. Will keep you posted

boboldpilot

DieselPowered wrote: »

Two points I don't see brought up

- organisations don't get money and gain anything due to un-redeemed vouchers. The parent advertiser (Living Social, Groupon) retain the money until they are cashed in by the flying school. This goes for all discount vouchers sold through these companies.

- The flying school can indeed limit the amount sold. Why would they sell more than they can cater for? (not just sell whatever is bought in the time frame).

Not aware of the first point. Are you sure it applies in all cases? Just experience leads me to believe it doesn't always apply. Also if I was the company involved. I'm not sure I'd want to voucher company to benefit more than I do.

But in fact, I'm generally referring to vouchers sold by the company directly rather than through a third party. Without the middleman there is no one to hold back the cash.

As for overselling. I can easily see it happening. Arguably that's exactly what happened with the flight school mentioned and I know for a fact it does happen because I've seen it in action.

On the point of expiry dates, you say it's illegal yet I've seen some pretty tight expiry dates which are only extended by paying additional money or not at all. I bought a shop voucher the other day and it clearly stated an expiry date! Are Marks and Spencer acting illegally?

I'm not disagreeing with you but, my experience suggests otherwise.

DieselPowered

boboldpilot wrote: »

Not aware of the first point. Are you sure it applies in all cases? Just experience leads me to believe it doesn't always apply. Also if I was the company involved. I'm not sure I'd want to voucher company to benefit more than I do.

But in fact, I'm generally referring to vouchers sold by the company directly rather than through a third party. Without the middleman there is no one to hold back the cash.

As for overselling. I can easily see it happening. Arguably that's exactly what happened with the flight school mentioned and I know for a fact it does happen because I've seen it in action.

On the point of expiry dates, you say it's illegal yet I've seen some pretty tight expiry dates which are only extended by paying additional money or not at all. I bought a shop voucher the other day and it clearly stated an expiry date! Are Marks and Spencer acting illegally?

I'm not disagreeing with you but, my experience suggests otherwise.

The money is definitely retained by Groupon/Living social until redeemed by the individual company.

For vouchers sold directly through the company selling the product, yes, its cash in the bag, but they rely on a buyer finding them online and making a purchase.Small enough numbers. The advantage of Groupon/Living social is free advertisement to over half a million subscribers in Dublin.

On the point of expiry dates, i was referring to a debate on the radio some time ago about the legality of them expiring. Cash does not expire. a Voucher is a good will exchange for cash.
However, I have since found out, that the reason companies put expiry dates on vouchers is due to financial accounting reasons. a Company is required to make returns to the tax man in any given year, if they have sold unredeemed vouchers, there is little or no cash flow and they could be seen to have made a "loss" and therefore go out of business (worst case scanario obviously), so to make sure cash flow is continuous and people don't forget about their vouchers, expiry dates are added to entice folks to use them 'within that accounting year, or the one after it'.

As for having to pay to 're-activate' a voucher, well, that's another discussion that is needed.

DeltaDev

Well here is my update..... I turned up for my flight as arranged. Got checked in, provided a few details, got the plane fuelled and away we went in the yellow Grob. It was a great experience; the Grob is a lovely, responsive plane. Headed out west for an hour, got to do a few different manoeuvres and then back to Weston. Was like a child on Christmas morning afterwards!
No complaints whatsoever; my voucher experience was very positive.

veetwin

Yup, I have taken 3 introductory flights with flightwise and can't say a bad word about them. Obviously when these deals are sold everyone of the 700 odd customers get on the phone the first week and expect to fly straight away. I've always waited a few weeks and then phoned them. They have generally called back within 2 days offering a suitable date and time.

Each flight has been excellent with the instructor genuinely interested in teaching basic flying skills and not just going through the motions. The student actually flies the plane for 45 minutes out of the hour.

I can highly recommend them provided a little patience and understanding is given in the booking process.

cuterob

yup had an hour flight with these guys today and cant say a bad word really.. I had one last year with NFC and they were great too but flightwise's instructor was extremely good and never stopped explaining things to me and helping me understand everything that was happening throughout the flight.. of course it took a while to get the flight but I think there was maybe 5 days in March that were flyable as the other dates were cancelled

Dogwatch

Just had mine today and they were brilliant. The instruction was first class and answered all questions. It was a bit gusty but it made it all the more interesting. The time seemed to go very quickly and I would loved to have stayed up longer as I was just about getting the hang of it. Best Xmas pressie ever...

andy_g

Glad ya had fun Peter

NeedsTraining

I had a voucher for Flightwise through Living Social, but thankfully got a refund today.

I found flightwise to be completely incompetent in dealing with my requests both for a lesson and also requests for further information.

I made numerous calls and each time was promised a call back but not once did I receive one.

I also sent numerous emails and never received a response either.

I gave them the benefit of the doubt with being busy due to the vouchers, however after 3 months without a call back or email reply, I requested a refund.

Hope others have a better experience.