Time to enact paternity leave?

tritium

So, as the title says, is it time that the right to paternity leave was enshrined in law? At present, unlike many progressive countries, there is no legal right to this. Extensions to maternity leave have not been mirrored with an introduction of fathers leave.

Granted, the economic circumstances are poor at present. However there are several examples of cost neutral approaches to this. For example if the last two months of maternity leave were designated as two weeks to the father with an option to share the remainder as the couple choose then the net impact is zero.

So, should Ireland move into line with other progressive nations and introduce a right to paternity leave?

Mr Benevolent

Yes

/thread.

racso1975

yes but i would love to hear some mothers opinions on this. I know there would be a snowballs chance in hell of my wife sharing this leave with me. I see both sides of the argument even though she is wrong!!!!

Shane-KornSpace

Yes.
Nearly a year ago my baby was born premature by 4 weeks and my gf began getting depressed.
What did I have to do? Go to ****in work. I got 1 week holidays but could really have done with the extra time to look after the missus and spend more time with my son when he was in the SCBU.

Would love to see paternity leave brought in.

The Dagda

Confab wrote: »

Yes

/thread.

Indeed, will anyone say no?!

seamus

Ideally maternity leave would be 9 months, with 50% of that time shareable with the father or another suitable carer. So you can take 4.5 months each at the same time, or split it over the full 9 months, etc. Or the father stays at home with the mother for the first 3 months, or whatever way you want to swing it.

There are many instances where it may not possible/ideal for a father to opt for paternity leave (such as when they're self-employed), so it should be possible to nominate another relevant carer who can take the leave, such as a sibling or grandparent.

If for nothing else than the reduction/identification of post natal depression. In the few weeks after a child is born, the first month especially, it's literally a 24/7 job for the mother. Simple things like getting some time to yourself to take a **** are suddenly difficult, especially if the birth was difficult. So it doesn't surprise me at all that so many women do suffer from post natal depression, and allowing for someone to be there to provide even basic help would be invaluable.

Yet in this country if you're a man, you could have a wife/partner struggling to keep herself sane, looking after a child who needs really special care, and you have to go into bloody work because you have no other choice.

Clarehobo

It is time to allocate fathers a decent lump of paternity leave.
Most men already share in the domestic and parenting duties.

Having a newborn kid can be extremely tough and demanding - at least if both parents are there to share the load, it will be easier on them.

I don't think women's maternity leave should be docked though. That could discourage people from availing of it.

anncoates

My wife had a really difficult birth with our first child.

I had to take a big chunk of my holidays off to help her, let alone her looking after the child by herself.

4 months each would be ideal, with either partner being able to claim the other's allowance if they didn't want to take time off work.

hoodwinked

As a mother yes yes and yes,

my daughters birth was as easy as they get (aka we were lucky enough to have no complications, natural birth with only gas & air, minimal tearing)

so recovery for me was pretty straight forward and i still would have killed to have my husband around for more than two days,

he got two days force majeure and after that nada, it was unpaid leave only (which we couldn't afford with a new baby) so was forced to go back to work, if you actually think about it he was back in work before i was allowed leave the hospital.


adjusting to having this little person with me was tough, especially on my own. i could have done with the help and he himself wanted to spend time bonding with his daughter she was asleep most nights by 7pm he's home from work about 5-6pm (traffic depending) which meant he was only getting an hour or two a day with her and they grow so fast i think he still feels like he missed out somewhat.

As a plus for mothers other than the above, if fathers were taking paternity leave to the same extent as mothers there would also be less discrimination there when it comes to hiring or promoting between women and men as both would be likely to take leave.

Dodge

I only realised recently that there was no statutory paternity leave. I got 3 days in work and I thought that was the minimum. Unbelievable really that this is down to goodwill of employers

have yet to to hear a coherent argument against paternity leave

GalwayGuy2

I like the Swedish model. It's two months mandatory for both sexes, or parents. I think it would get rid of the whole man in work, woman in house perception and all the baggage it brings.

crockholm

I live in Sweden and have availed of it,firstly you get 10 days off at 80% pay,then Itransferred my time to her which allows her to be mamaledig(maternity leave). Before the boy is 8 or 9 years old I take 2 months paternity or i lose it. The economy isn't looking too good at the moment,but it's probably too veritable an institution to tinker with it...then again...Anders Borg...

Daith

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I like the Swedish model. It's two months mandatory for both sexes, or parents. I think it would get rid of the whole man in work, woman in house perception and all the baggage it brings.

Agreed 100%.

franktheplank

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I like the Swedish model. It's two months mandatory for both sexes, or parents. I think it would get rid of the whole man in work, woman in house perception and all the baggage it brings.

Agreed, I think it's the only way we'll see real fairness in the labor market also. This glass ceiling thing is constantly being used to push a feminist agenda but when it comes down to it I think you'll see a reluctance to share parental leave, or for that matter parental rights etc....

kowloon

Make two types of leave: Parental leave and Pregnancy leave. Problem solved.

tritium

Wow, so far everyone thinks it makes sense, and yet somehow successive governments just haven't bothered. I think it's time to start pestering my TDs to raise a few questions. May I humbly suggest that other posters here might do the same!

sfwcork

If you want to make babies work away,im not paying for it though.Cut me cut way down imo

Frank Black

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I like the Swedish model.

Me too. It's probably the blond flowing locks and toned body.

doyle61

My wife told me that you can get 3days paternal leave spaced over I think it was 2 months and it was EU legislation rather than Irish law that brought this in.
When my daughter was born (Dec last year) I saved up all my leave along with carry over leave I had and took the month off to be with them. I was bloody knackered going back to work and could have done with a holiday lol

Frank Black

sfwcork wrote: »

If you want to make babies work away,im not paying for it though.Cut me cut way down imo

Fair enough, but none of our kids are paying for your old age pension.

tritium

sfwcork wrote: »

If you want to make babies work away,im not paying for it though.Cut me cut way down imo

You do realise that maternity leave is paid for through an employees contributions don't you? All I'm suggesting is that fathers should have a similar option

hatrickpatrick

It's blindingly obvious imo.
Some amount of maternity leave is absolutely essential for purely medical reasons (how long does it take between being so close to labour that you shouldn't be doing anything, to making a full recovery?), but beyond that it should apply to either or both parents.

hatrickpatrick

tritium wrote: »

Wow, so far everyone thinks it makes sense, and yet somehow successive governments just haven't bothered. I think it's time to start pestering my TDs to raise a few questions. May I humbly suggest that other posters here might do the same!

There are mind bogglingly massive multitudes of ideas which make sense, and that almost everyone is fully in favour of, but are ignored repeatedly by governments with the result that how society is run always ends up being several steps behind how people actually live their lives.

Blame lobby groups. No government wants to go along with the population if it means upsetting a small but stupidly influential lobby, ie hard right "religious" conservatives etc.

Watching "The Life of Brian" used to be illegal in Ireland. Yet almost everyone managed to see it at some point. Why is this? If the majority of the people were ok with it, why ban it?

Government policy is always out of touch, and until we reform the parliamentary system to get rid of party whips, it always will be. The day government politicians are not bound to obey their parties, but are bound to obey the majority of their constituents, we can have progress.

Unregistered.

Needs poll. Would love to see men's opinion vs. women's opinion.

allibastor

lads and Ladies, its like the whole abortion and assisted suicide conversations. no one will challange it in the dail as the see it as not a pressing issue and dont want to rock the boat in matters like this. its just another case to show that ireland are the cavemen of Europe

flanders1979

Feck dat. The only peace I get is at work.

astrofool

Yes it should be brought in, the reason it hasn't is likely due to the cost on the state and businesses that would be paying for it.

Should everyone pay .5% more PRSI so that some people can go on paternity leave is probably a better (hypothetical) question.

tritium

astrofool wrote: »

Yes it should be brought in, the reason it hasn't is likely due to the cost on the state and businesses that would be paying for it.

Should everyone pay .5% more PRSI so that some people can go on paternity leave is probably a better (hypothetical) question.

I've already pointed out that this can be done in a cost neutral way...,

tritium

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

There are mind bogglingly massive multitudes of ideas which make sense, and that almost everyone is fully in favour of, but are ignored repeatedly by governments with the result that how society is run always ends up being several steps behind how people actually live their lives.

Blame lobby groups. No government wants to go along with the population if it means upsetting a small but stupidly influential lobby, ie hard right "religious" conservatives etc.

Watching "The Life of Brian" used to be illegal in Ireland. Yet almost everyone managed to see it at some point. Why is this? If the majority of the people were ok with it, why ban it?

Government policy is always out of touch, and until we reform the parliamentary system to get rid of party whips, it always will be. The day government politicians are not bound to obey their parties, but are bound to obey the majority of their constituents, we can have progress.

My response was more a short and sarcastic snipe that broadly agrees with everything you've said. Hence why I suggested that people should be lobbying their representatives on this

tritium

Unregistered. wrote: »

Needs poll. Would love to see men's opinion vs. women's opinion.

I'm not sure I can add one from a mobile device. If anyone knows how I'll do it or else try to add one later when I'm at a pc

antodeco

My OH had a very bad pregnancy. She was in hospital for 6 months out of the 9. I had to work as I could not get time off. I would be up at 6, into the hospital until about 8 then off to work. Finish at 6, stay in until 9:30pm then head home. Repeat for weeks. Then when my daughter was born, i had to save up my holidays (to a maximum of 2 weeks), then head back to work. How the OH got through it is beyond me.

anncoates

sfwcork wrote: »

If you want to make babies work away,im not paying for it though.Cut me cut way down imo

Were you an immaculate conception?

Madam_X

Unregistered. wrote: »

Needs poll. Would love to see men's opinion vs. women's opinion.

I'm fairly certain it would be boringly 50/50.

tritium

Madam_X wrote: »

I'm fairly certain it would be boringly 50/50.

Hmm, I'd be surprised/ disappointed if it was. Can't seem to figure out how to add a poll though

Madam_X

tritium wrote: »

Hmm, I'd be surprised/ disappointed if it was. Can't seem to figure out how to add a poll though

Any reason why you'd be surprised? There clearly is no downside to paternity leave, and it benefits each spouse - why would anyone oppose it?

tritium

I think we've misunderstood each other - when you said 50/50 I assumed you meant 50% for and 50% against. I'd agree that I don't see why anyone would oppose it (well, one poster stuck their neck out on this thread on the 'I'm not paying for it' platform )

Teyla Emmagan

Definitely. I'm working with a guy who's spent his time moping out the window since his baby was born. All he wants is to be at home, and this even after he saved up a year's leave to spend the first month with his wife and newborn. And they had a fairly easy pregnancy/birth. My heart goes out to any Dad who has to rush back to work and leave a sick baby/Mammy at home. The current system isn't much short of cruel as it stands.

Miss Lockhart

I think we should have parental leave with a mandatory minimum to be taken by both parents and the remainder to be decided between the two.

astrofool

tritium wrote: »

I've already pointed out that this can be done in a cost neutral way...,

Not really, men earn more, thus it will cost more to pay them when on leave. A fair % of women work, thus won't be getting Maternity benefit, whereas most men would work. Also I wouldn't see the mother giving up maternity time to give to the father, it would likely have to be added rather than shared, or reduce the mothers duration, which would be an unpopular decision to make.

tritium

astrofool wrote: »

Not really, men earn more, thus it will cost more to pay them when on leave.

You're mixing up what it costs the state with the optional top up an employer may choose to make

a fair % of women work, thus won't be getting Maternity benefit, whereas most men would work.

I don't have the exact stats to hand bit the difference isn't as big as you might think, especially since tax individualisation and the property bubble

Also I wouldn't see the mother giving up maternity time to give to the father, it would likely have to be added rather than shared, or reduce the mothers duration, which would be an unpopular decision to make.

what I've suggested as one possibility is an amount of shareable time, with only a small piece given as a right to the father