Stamp 4 / 4EUFAM visa working

B.doug5467

Hello, me (US citizen) and my soon to be wife (Irish + UK passport holder) are about to be married in America, then shortly after move to Ireland. We are planning to go the GNIB and get a stamp 4 so I can live and work there.

My question is, can I work in Northern Ireland with a stamp 4?

Is there a difference if we get a 4EUFAM? Will that allow me to work in NI if stamp 4 doesn't?

How would I get a 4EUFAM?

Thanks so much for your help!

ResearchWill

B.doug5467 wrote: »

Hello, me (US citizen) and my soon to be wife (Irish + UK passport holder) are about to be married in America, then shortly after move to Ireland. We are planning to go the GNIB and get a stamp 4 so I can live and work there.

My question is, can I work in Northern Ireland with a stamp 4?

Is there a difference if we get a 4EUFAM? Will that allow me to work in NI if stamp 4 doesn't?

How would I get a 4EUFAM?

Thanks so much for your help!

You say your soon to be wife is both Irish and UK passport holder, has she lived all her life in Ireland or the UK.

It is not straight forward that your wife can claim EU treaty rights and her exact personal circumstances would have to be looked at. See Case C-434/09 McCarthy v Secretary of State for the Home Department http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62009J0434:EN:HTML

In relation to your question it is so specific, you will need proper advice from an immigration lawyer who can asses all your circumstances. Remember though the rights if EU apply to your wife not you, so if your wife is exercising treaty rights in Ireland you are allowed to join her and work in Ireland, her working here and you in NI may be a problem, of course if you both moved to NI that would be different.

But in reality you query is so specific you need to consult a solicitor.

This site may answer many of your questions http://www.inis.gov.ie/

B.doug5467

Ok, I understand every situation is different, but I'm just wondering if I have a stamp4 can I work in NI if my wife is also working in NI? Or am I restricted to the Republic of Ireland?

ResearchWill

B.doug5467 wrote: »

Ok, I understand every situation is different, but I'm just wondering if I have a stamp4 can I work in NI if my wife is also working in NI? Or am I restricted to the Republic of Ireland?

I know this may be a silly question but why are ye going to live in the Republic if both want to work in NI.

The question re work in NI would and I am guessing not be possible if you have a Irish EU Fam 4 card, I don't think you would get that stamp as your wife would not be exercising treaty rights here as UK national. So the only option then is normal stamp 4 based on spouses irish citizenship that will not allow you to work in NI.

GerardKeating

B.doug5467 wrote: »

Ok, I understand every situation is different, but I'm just wondering if I have a stamp4 can I work in NI if my wife is also working in NI? Or am I restricted to the Republic of Ireland?

Depends, but i doubt it. You would need a UK work visa.

If your spouse was to be also living/working in UK, you might got one on that basis

B.doug5467

It would appear that my wife bringing me over through the British government is really difficult, a ton of money is involved, which we don't have. We are planing to live in NI and also work there, but get residence through Ireland (she has an Irish passport). Is this possible or do I have this all messed up.

ResearchWill

B.doug5467 wrote: »

It would appear that my wife bringing me over through the British government is really difficult, a ton of money is involved, which we don't have. We are planing to live in NI and also work there, but get residence through Ireland (she has an Irish passport). Is this possible or do I have this all messed up.

If ye are living in NI and working in NI how are ye resident in The Republic of Ireland. The case I posted may answer some of your questions if your wife is aiming to live in UK and exercise EU treaty rights, as Irish citizen. If she lived all her life in UK that will not work.

B.doug5467

Thanks again for all your help, I'm really stressing over all this haha. So your saying we go to the GNIB and tell them she is a Irish citizen living in Northern Ireland under the EU treaty, and that should give me a EUFAM VISA premitting me to live and work in the NI as well as my wife?

Marcusm

B.doug5467 wrote: »

It would appear that my wife bringing me over through the British government is really difficult, a ton of money is involved, which we don't have. We are planing to live in NI and also work there, but get residence through Ireland (she has an Irish passport). Is this possible or do I have this all messed up.

An Irish citizen taking their spouse to the UK whether under the EU rules or domestic UK rules (both are available to Irish citizens) need not incur any costs. The EEA permit takes a while to obtain but has no application fee.

ResearchWill

B.doug5467 wrote: »

Thanks again for all your help, I'm really stressing over all this haha. So your saying we go to the GNIB and tell them she is a Irish citizen living in Northern Ireland under the EU treaty, and that should give me a EUFAM VISA premitting me to live and work in the NI as well as my wife?

I said the exact opposite of that. Think of it like this say you have US and Canadian citizenship, say you are living and working in Canada and your wife is Irish. Now ask yourself what would US immigration say if you wanted them to give you wife a permision based on your US citizenship to live and work in Canada.

You need to get real advice based on your wife's status, for example did she grow up in ireland or UK, how much of her life did she spend in each country.

Marcusm

B.doug5467 wrote: »

Thanks again for all your help, I'm really stressing over all this haha. So your saying we go to the GNIB and tell them she is a Irish citizen living in Northern Ireland under the EU treaty, and that should give me a EUFAM VISA premitting me to live and work in the NI as well as my wife?

Think about it; can the US provide you with a visa enabling your wife to work in Canada? The GNIB has no function with respect to UK visas. You need to work through the UK Border Agency (which has a lot more useful information on its website than the Irish equivalents). Equally there are UK specific immigration fora which will be of greater assistance than posting here.

ukresident.com
www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk

ResearchWill

Marcusm wrote: »

An Irish citizen taking their spouse to the UK whether under the EU rules or domestic UK rules (both are available to Irish citizens) need not incur any costs. The EEA permit takes a while to obtain but has no application fee.

The wife is also UK citizen, if she lived her life in UK and not Ireland then she can not exercise treaty rights in the UK.

Marcusm

ResearchWill wrote: »

The wife is also UK citizen, if she lived her life in UK and not Ireland then she can not exercise treaty rights in the UK.

MIssed that; you have asked good questions to establish whether the UK citizen has previously exercised treaty rights which might permit them to access EEA rules rather than UK domestic ones. Is a period of residence in both states enough, I wonder. It might be argued that in neither case have EU rights been exercised. Hopefully it will not prove an issue for the OP. The forum I cited is quite a comprehensive one although more responsive to detailed questioning by an informed OP rather than a broader pitch of questions.

ResearchWill

Marcusm wrote: »

MIssed that; you have asked good questions to establish whether the UK citizen has previously exercised treaty rights which might permit them to access EEA rules rather than UK domestic ones. Is a period of residence in both states enough, I wonder. It might be argued that in neither case have EU rights been exercised. Hopefully it will not prove an issue for the OP. The forum I cited is quite a comprehensive one although more responsive to detailed questioning by an informed OP rather than a broader pitch of questions.

The McCarthy case I quoted will answer the question can the wife exercise EU rights in the UK. The issue is not has the wife exercised EU treaty rights in the past as by being dual citizen in UK and Ireland so is usually not exercising treaty rights as has a right to live and work in both countries outside EU treaty. The question is how strong is her connection to either state.

Brief outline of McCarthy Dual citizen irelànd and UK born in UK of Irish parents, got Irish passport and tried to exercise EU treaty rights even though never been in Ireland.

Marcusm

ResearchWill wrote: »

The McCarthy case I quoted will answer the question can the wife exercise EU rights in the UK. The issue is not has the wife exercised EU treaty rights in the past as by being dual citizen in UK and Ireland so is usually not exercising treaty rights as has a right to live and work in both countries outside EU treaty. The question is how strong is her connection to either state.

Brief outline of McCarthy Dual citizen irelànd and UK born in UK of Irish parents, got Irish passport and tried to exercise EU treaty rights even though never been in Ireland.

I had read the case before; I was being too unclear with my statements, I think the following part of the decision would put up a significant barrier for the OP's wife as if she has not lived elsewhere in the EU, this decision (which the OP might find difficult to scan) might preclude her from using the EU route entirely.

"43 It follows that Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38 is to be interpreted as meaning that that directive is not applicable to a Union citizen who has never exercised his right of free movement, who has always resided in a Member State of which he is a national and who is also a national of another Member State. "

ResearchWill

Marcusm wrote: »

I had read the case before; I was being too unclear with my statements, I think the following part of the decision would put up a significant barrier for the OP's wife as if she has not lived elsewhere in the EU, this decision (which the OP might find difficult to scan) might preclude her from using the EU route entirely.

"43 It follows that Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38 is to be interpreted as meaning that that directive is not applicable to a Union citizen who has never exercised his right of free movement, who has always resided in a Member State of which he is a national and who is also a national of another Member State. "

That is why I am trying to find out is has the wife always resided in UK or Ireland. If she has always resided or in reality mostly resided in Ireland then she can exercise EU treaty rights in UK if on the other hand she has always resided in UK then under the McCarthy decision she can not in the UK exercise treaty rights. McCarthy does not say a dual citizen can not exercise treaty rights in the other state only that they can not exercise treaty rights in the country they always lived in.

Marcusm

ResearchWill wrote: »

If she has always resided or in reality mostly resided in Ireland then she can exercise EU treaty rights in UK if on the other hand she has always resided in UK then under the McCarthy decision she can not in the UK exercise treaty rights.

I may be taking too literal a construction of the para I quoted and of the ruling itself but the case itself did not consider the point at issue as she had never lived in the other country (ie Ireland) but I think it's open to question even if McCarthu had lived in Ireland as to whether that would have been an exercise of treaty rights or citizenship rights. The court might determine this to be a national issue rather than a community one even if the person has lived in both states of which she is a citizen.

ResearchWill

Marcusm wrote: »

I may be taking too literal a construction of the para I quoted and of the ruling itself but the case itself did not consider the point at issue as she had never lived in the other country (ie Ireland) but I think it's open to question even if McCarthu had lived in Ireland as to whether that would have been an exercise of treaty rights or citizenship rights. The court might determine this to be a national issue rather than a community one even if the person has lived in both states of which she is a citizen.

Maybe I am reading a different case to you

14 Mrs McCarthy, a national of the United Kingdom, is also an Irish national. She was born and has always lived in the United Kingdom, and has never argued that she is or has been a worker, self-employed person or self-sufficient person. She is in receipt of State benefits.

15 On 15 November 2002, Mrs McCarthy married a Jamaican national who lacks leave to remain in the United Kingdom under the Immigration Rules of that Member State.

16 Following her marriage, Mrs McCarthy applied for an Irish passport for the first time and obtained it.

17 On 23 July 2004, Mrs McCarthy and her husband applied to the Secretary of State for a residence permit and residence document under European Union law as, respectively, a Union citizen and the spouse of a Union citizen. The Secretary of State refused their applications on the ground that Mrs McCarthy was not ‘a qualified person’ (essentially, a worker, self-employed person or self-sufficient person) and, accordingly, that Mr McCarthy was not the spouse of ‘a qualified person’.

21 In that context, the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom decided to stay the proceedings and to refer the following questions to the Court of Justice for a preliminary ruling:

‘1. Is a person of dual Irish and United Kingdom nationality who has resided in the United Kingdom for her entire life a “beneficiary” within the meaning of Article 3 of Directive 2004/38 …?

2. Has such a person “resided legally” within the host Member State for the purpose of Article 16 of [that] directive in circumstances where she was unable to satisfy the requirements of Article 7 of [that directive]?’

39. Hence, in circumstances such as those of the main proceedings, in so far as the Union citizen concerned has never exercised his right of free movement and has always resided in a Member State of which he is a national, that citizen is not covered by the concept of ‘beneficiary’ for the purposes of Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38, so that that directive is not applicable to him.


She was a UK national, she married a non EU national, she applied for her Irish passport, she then to allow her husband to stay applied for treaty rights The ECJ said she was not exercising treaty rights and so National Rules apply. The case may have been decided differently if she had lived most or a good portion of her life in Ireland as she may then have been held to be exercising treaty rights again I say may as that was not the question asked. If she had also say went to Germany and then returned to the UK she would have a right to EU treaty rights in UK.

Marcusm

ResearchWill wrote: »

Maybe I am reading a different case to you

14 Mrs McCarthy, a national of the United Kingdom, is also an Irish national. She was born and has always lived in the United Kingdom, and has never argued that she is or has been a worker, self-employed person or self-sufficient person. She is in receipt of State benefits.

15 On 15 November 2002, Mrs McCarthy married a Jamaican national who lacks leave to remain in the United Kingdom under the Immigration Rules of that Member State.

16 Following her marriage, Mrs McCarthy applied for an Irish passport for the first time and obtained it.

17 On 23 July 2004, Mrs McCarthy and her husband applied to the Secretary of State for a residence permit and residence document under European Union law as, respectively, a Union citizen and the spouse of a Union citizen. The Secretary of State refused their applications on the ground that Mrs McCarthy was not ‘a qualified person’ (essentially, a worker, self-employed person or self-sufficient person) and, accordingly, that Mr McCarthy was not the spouse of ‘a qualified person’.

21 In that context, the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom decided to stay the proceedings and to refer the following questions to the Court of Justice for a preliminary ruling:

‘1. Is a person of dual Irish and United Kingdom nationality who has resided in the United Kingdom for her entire life a “beneficiary” within the meaning of Article 3 of Directive 2004/38 …?

2. Has such a person “resided legally” within the host Member State for the purpose of Article 16 of [that] directive in circumstances where she was unable to satisfy the requirements of Article 7 of [that directive]?’

She was a UK national, she married a non EU national, she applied for her Irish passport, she then to allow her husband to stay applied for treaty rights The ECJ said she was not exercising treaty rights and so National Rules apply. The case may have been decided differently if she had lived most or a good portion of her life in Ireland as she may then have been held to be exercising treaty rights again I say may as that was not the question asked.

Definitely the same case and I'm not contradicting you but I think it might be a weak "may" given some of the statements which might give further guidance as to what the underlying views are on exercising treaty rights. I refer to statements such as that quoted below which would have been equally applicable to Ms McCarthy had she split her life between Ireland and the UK. In neither case would she necessarily have been exercising treaty rights (being a citizen of both countries) and I suggest that it might have been determined that national rules applied notwithstanding the involvement of two member states.

"Hence, in circumstances such as those of the main proceedings, in so far as the Union citizen concerned has never exercised his right of free movement and has always resided in a Member State of which he is a national, that citizen is not covered by the concept of ‘beneficiary’ for the purposes of Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38, so that that directive is not applicable to him. "

Grass between the tracks

Where would she be if she renounced her UK citizenship?

ResearchWill

Marcusm wrote: »

Definitely the same case and I'm not contradicting you but I think it might be a weak "may" given some of the statements which might give further guidance as to what the underlying views are on exercising treaty rights. I refer to statements such as which would have been equally applicable to Ms McCarthy had she split her life between Ireland and the UK. In neither case would she necessarily have been exercising treaty rights (being a citizen of both countries) and I suggest that it might have been determined that national rules applied notwithstanding the involvement of two member states.

"Hence, in circumstances such as those of the main proceedings, in so far as the Union citizen concerned has never exercised his right of free movement and has always resided in a Member State of which he is a national, that citizen is not covered by the concept of ‘beneficiary’ for the purposes of Article 3(1) of Directive 2004/38, so that that directive is not applicable to him. "

Now I get you. Yes I agree if its split time it may be a difficult case to bring home. But is say the wife lived, went to school and worked in ireland and only time in UK was holidays, I believe she may have a good argument.

In any case if the OP and his wife went to say France to live and work then after time decided to return to the UK then that would be covered under EU law.

walrusgumble

B.doug5467 wrote: »

Hello, me (US citizen) and my soon to be wife (Irish + UK passport holder) are about to be married in America, then shortly after move to Ireland. We are planning to go the GNIB and get a stamp 4 so I can live and work there.

My question is, can I work in Northern Ireland with a stamp 4?

Is there a difference if we get a 4EUFAM? Will that allow me to work in NI if stamp 4 doesn't?

How would I get a 4EUFAM?

Thanks so much for your help!

You will not be able to work in Northern Ireland, unless, your husband, an Irish Citizen , acts in some way that shows that he is exercising his EU Treaty Rights there.

It could be by him working, or him making NI his usual residency but is clearly self sufficient


A EU Stamp Fam 4 to reside in the South, will not allow you to work in NI, unless hubby is connected in NI



If your husband , being Irish, is living and working in the South, and he is not coming from another EU country, then, EU law will not apply (McCarthy case) Irish law only, because he is not exercising Treaty Rights in the South. If he went North, that would be different, (he upon family returning to the South after some months, EU law is relevant - Singh case )

walrusgumble

Marcusm wrote: »

I may be taking too literal a construction of the para I quoted and of the ruling itself but the case itself did not consider the point at issue as she had never lived in the other country (ie Ireland) but I think it's open to question even if McCarthu had lived in Ireland as to whether that would have been an exercise of treaty rights or citizenship rights. The court might determine this to be a national issue rather than a community one even if the person has lived in both states of which she is a citizen.

Simply living is not enough for family reunification. They must work, or be self sufficient (not on social) or students, or self employed