EU Treaty Rights of free movement

Familyman1

Will they ever be implemented in Ireland without reverse discrimination against Irish people?

Currently any EU person living in Ireland can avail of treaty rights of free movement and the benefits to them if they have non-Eu family members who are dependent on them.

At the moment Irish citizens cannot avail of the same rights under directive 2004 free movement unless they live/work in another EU country bar there own for a period (which is unspecified) before returning to Ireland.

As an Irish citizen with a non EU wife, I feel it is deeply unfair that we are not entitled to these EU rights where as if I was British, Polish or French for example, we would.

The difference to us is that should we wish to go on holiday to EU it requires visa applications to go there, and another visa to return to Ireland.

If I was not Irish but another EU nationality in Ireland my wife would have an EU residence card and could travel with me visa free within the EU.

Also, and more pressingly, my wife's mother lives in her (non EU) country alone. She is divorced 20+ years and has no job or income other than the money we provide. She also has no other family members (Her parents are passed on, her only child is her daughter, my wife).

If I was British, Polish, Greek, Romanian etc etc.. We could bring her here to live with us as a dependent direct ascendant provided she would not be a burden to the state (Which is no problem for us) .

However being Irish I have no right for this as my family is not considered under EU law but instead under Irish immigration law which does not recognize dependent direct ascendants as family members (Despite being at odds with the Irish constitution in my opinion).


The only way I can avail of the same rights as our EU friends is if I leave my home, my job, my life and go live in UK for example and work there for a year or so. When I come back I would be able to get an EU family member card for my wife and mother in law, provided I managed to find a job and house again.

Suffice to say this is not a good option for me. I have a job I love and am lucky to have it.

Is there any possibility or indication that EU free movement may be applied to Irish people in Ireland in the future?

I really don't want to have to leave my home, job and country in order to have my dependent family all under one roof.

Fratton Fred

This is one of the gaping holes in EU legislation.

You can discriminate against your own citizens (As English, Welsh and NI students studying in Scotland are finding out) but can't discriminate against EU citizens.

But hey, at least all our bananas are the same shape

eire4

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is one of the gaping holes in EU legislation.

You can discriminate against your own citizens (As English, Welsh and NI students studying in Scotland are finding out) but can't discriminate against EU citizens.

But hey, at least all our bananas are the same shape

Wow your not kidding when you describe that as a gaping hole in EU legislation. Certainly that is something that needs to get changed so that kind of discrimination no longer applies.

Scofflaw

eire4 wrote: »

Wow your not kidding when you describe that as a gaping hole in EU legislation. Certainly that is something that needs to get changed so that kind of discrimination no longer applies.

Isn't that a gross intrusion into the intenal affairs of the nation?

cordially,
Scofflaw

FreudianSlippers

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is one of the gaping holes in EU legislation.

You can discriminate against your own citizens (As English, Welsh and NI students studying in Scotland are finding out) but can't discriminate against EU citizens.

But hey, at least all our bananas are the same shape

The UK is considered one Member State within the EU; thus your comment is irrelevant.

Fratton Fred

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The UK is considered one Member State within the EU; thus your comment is irrelevant.

exactly, the UK is one state, so the Scottish government can quite happily discriminate against English and Welsh people, as long as they don't discriminate against non UK EU citizens then the EU is happy.

The same is happening to the OP.

The Irish government is effectively discriminating against an Irish citizen and not applying the EU law in their case, whereas they have no choice but to apply it to no Irish citizens.

Is it intrusion on the internal affairs of a member state? no more so than the European convention on human rights is.

FreudianSlippers

Fratton Fred wrote: »

exactly, the UK is one state, so the Scottish government can quite happily discriminate against English and Welsh people, as long as they don't discriminate against non UK EU citizens then the EU is happy.

The same is happening to the OP.

The Irish government is effectively discriminating against an Irish citizen and not applying the EU law in their case, whereas they have no choice but to apply it to no Irish citizens.

Is it intrusion on the internal affairs of a member state? no more so than the European convention on human rights is.

But there is no movement of an EU citizen between Member States, so how can the law apply?

Scofflaw

It appears the UK has had issues of this kind, and has had a Commission non-compliance procedure started against it:

On the 6th April 2012, the European Commission has served on the United Kingdom a reasoned opinion, which outlines the current breaches of EU Free Movement Law actively being pursued by the UK State. The opinion includes a formal notice that the UK has two months to mend it’s hand and comply with European Union rules on the free movement of EU citizens and their families across the EU. The breaches of EU Free Movement Law that are addressed in the Notice are summarized by the Commission as follows (See Commission's press release here );

“The Free Movement Directive guarantees that non-EU family members of EU citizens who hold a valid residence card issued by one EU country can travel together with EU citizens within the European Union without an entry visa. The UK laws do not grant this important right which lies at the heart of free movement.

The United Kingdom does not allow extended family members of EU citizens to apply to have their residence in the UK considered under EU law when they were lawfully residing in the UK before the arrival to the UK of the EU citizen on whom they are dependent.

Under the Free Movement Directive, EU citizens who settle in another EU country but do not work there may be required to have sufficient resources and sickness insurance. The United Kingdom, however, does not consider entitlement to treatment by the UK public healthcare scheme (NHS) as sufficient. This breaches EU law.

http://brophysolicitorsimmigration.blogspot.ie/2012/05/eu-commission-requests-uk-state-to.html

The solicitors in question are encouraging people to write to the Commission's Representation in Ireland (18 Dawson Street, D2) to complain about similar breaches they've identified here. It would seem that the situation Familyman identifies might also be such a breach, so the correct action is to write to the Commission regarding that breach.

You might also consider the YourEurope Adviser:

Your Europe Legal Adviser

The Your Europe Legal Adviser is a lawyer and is available by prior appointment to provide you with information and advice on your rights in the European Union. If you have a problem which relates to your rights in the European Union, you can make an appointment for a consultation with the Your Europe Legal Adviser by telephone at 01 634 1111 or by email at eu-ie-info-request@ec.europa.eu or by personal appointment through the European Commission Representation in Ireland at European Union House, 18 Dawson Street, Dublin 2.

cordially,
Scofflaw

View

The matter raised by the OP is one for the Supreme Court and potentially the ECtHR.

I am not sure there is a basis for the ECJ to look at what is essentially a domestic legal issue though although I'd imagine the ECJ judges would love to get their hands on a case of a member state discriminating against the member state's own EU citizens!

djpbarry

Fratton Fred wrote: »

exactly, the UK is one state, so the Scottish government can quite happily discriminate against English and Welsh people, as long as they don't discriminate against non UK EU citizens then the EU is happy.

Technically, they're discriminating against English and Welsh residents.

acme4242

This is a purely Irish made problem. Compare to other EU states, e.g. Italy, who ensure their own families, are treated at least equal, if not better under national law, than others under EU law.

The majority of EU countries ensure equality towards their own citizens who have a mixed marriage, marrying a non-EU citizens.
The minority of EU states that do implement reverse discrimination have a history of racial and immigrant issues, we are talking Germany, UK, Denmark, and now Ireland has joined the poison gang.

Ireland has reverse discrimination, not by law, debated and approved, but by the lies of one man, John O'Donoghue

WayneMolloy

acme4242 wrote: »

This is a purely Irish made problem. Compare to other EU states, e.g. Italy, who ensure their own families, are treated at least equal, if not better under national law, than others under EU law.

The majority of EU countries ensure equality towards their own citizens who have a mixed marriage, marrying a non-EU citizens.
The minority of EU states that do implement reverse discrimination have a history of racial and immigrant issues, we are talking Germany, UK, Denmark, and now Ireland has joined the poison gang.

Ireland has reverse discrimination, not by law, debated and approved, but by the lies of one man, John O'Donoghue

The state needs to get out of the marriage business. Marry whoever or whatever you want - but you will receive no taxbreaks, no extra rights and certainly no visa for your spouse(or their kin).

Want a visa, apply for a work permit.

acme4242

yeah, Want Justice and Equality in Ireland, join the self serving service


The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004

3) Paragraph (h) of subsection (1) shall not apply to
an applicant for a certificate of naturalisation to
whom subsection (4) applies.
(b) that applicant’s spouse was in the public service

nesf

WayneMolloy wrote: »

The state needs to get out of the marriage business. Marry whoever or whatever you want - but you will receive no taxbreaks, no extra rights and certainly no visa for your spouse(or their kin).

Want a visa, apply for a work permit.

Eh, no extra rights? Um, yeah because unmarried fathers get loads of rights towards their kids and inheritance laws/taxes are very much based around marriage as a legal institution. I don't think you've thought this through or you're unmarried with no kids and simply don't know what you're talking about.

Also, work permit? Do we give them out for stay-at-home mothers or fathers now?

WayneMolloy

nesf wrote: »

Eh, no extra rights? Um, yeah because unmarried fathers get loads of rights towards their kids and inheritance laws/taxes are very much based around marriage as a legal institution. I don't think you've thought this through or you're unmarried with no kids and simply don't know what you're talking about.

Also, work permit? Do we give them out for stay-at-home mothers or fathers now?

Marriage is solely a personal and private matter. The state has no business involving itself in it. Inheritance issues could be dealt with by signing up a private contract before or after the ceremony. Civil partnerships for all.

Your issue seems to be with fathers rights - completely seperate. Start a thread on it and il contribute.

FreudianSlippers

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Marriage is solely a personal and private matter. The state has no business involving itself in it. Inheritance issues could be dealt with by signing up a private contract before or after the ceremony. Civil partnerships for all.

I agree. The problem with inheritance is easily solved by the state recognising the marriage certificate as a quasi-will, replaceable only by an actual will. There may need to be some legislation to do with spousal support in the case of divorce though.

acme4242

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Marriage is solely a personal and private matter. The state has no business involving itself in it. Inheritance issues could be dealt with by signing up a private contract before or after the ceremony. Civil partnerships for all.

Your issue seems to be with fathers rights - completely seperate. Start a thread on it and il contribute.

Your issue seems to be the institution of marriage, not what we are talking about here, EU Treaty Rights of free movement

why don't you go somewhere else Start a thread on it and il contribute

WayneMolloy

acme4242 wrote: »

Your issue seems to be the institution of marriage, not what we are talking about here, EU Treaty Rights of free movement

why don't you go somewhere else Start a thread on it and il contribute

Marrying an EU citizen should not entitle anyone to residency in an EU member state.

Id propose a situation were immigration judges would decide on whether or not to grant a spousal visa at their discretion, with the aid of a points based system. An unskilled spouse with a criminal record - refused. An I.T worker with a clean record - cead mile failte.

Unfortunately, thanks to our judeo-christian culture, many still believe 'in the sanctity of marriage.'

acme4242

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Marrying an EU citizen should not entitle anyone to residency in an EU member state.

Id propose a situation were immigration judges would decide on whether or not to grant a spousal visa at their discretion, with the aid of a points based system. An unskilled spouse with a criminal record - refused. An I.T worker with a clean record - cead mile failte.

Unfortunately, thanks to our judeo-christian culture, many still believe 'in the sanctity of marriage.'

sorry, Please Educate yourself first on EU treaty rights,
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:EN:PDF
what you think means nothing.

nesf

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Marriage is solely a personal and private matter. The state has no business involving itself in it. Inheritance issues could be dealt with by signing up a private contract before or after the ceremony. Civil partnerships for all.

Your issue seems to be with fathers rights - completely seperate. Start a thread on it and il contribute.

I'm thinking mainly of tax treatment of inheritances. We can't contract away inheritance tax, it's defined in quite a narrow way in terms of relationship to a person specifically to make it a very hard tax to avoid. The State has to be involved at some level here. Similarly we need to treat single parents and married parents differently when it comes to social benefits for obvious reasons, again the State needs to be involved at some level here. Marriage is so complexly intertwined with our society at a legal, Governmental and social level that I don't know if it can be full untangled. It is also fundamental to how we define family in many contexts which is unfortunate. I am however very sympathetic to a loosening of who can marry who etc.

acme4242

A Guide to the Rights of family Reunification in Ireland

Irish Citizen: No right
Non-EEA spouse of Irish Citizen: No right
EU Citizen: yes, automatic right
Non-EEA spouse of EU Citizen: yes, automatic right
Non-EEA Citizen (green card holder): yes, automatic right
Non-EEA Citizen (work permit holder): yes, after 12 months
Refugee: yes, automatic right

John O'Donoghue could only attack Irish Citizens, and that is what he did.

nesf

acme4242 wrote: »

A Guide to the Rights of family Reunification in Ireland

Irish Citizen: No right
Non-EEA spouse of Irish Citizen: No right
EU Citizen: yes, automatic right
Non-EEA spouse of EU Citizen: yes, automatic right
Non-EEA Citizen (green card holder): yes, automatic right
Non-EEA Citizen (work permit holder): yes, after 12 months
Refugee: yes, automatic right

John O'Donoghue could only attack Irish Citizens, and that is what he did.

I agree it's absurd and I really do not understand the rationale behind it.

acme4242

There is something rotten with the public servants in the Dept of Justice and Equality, they should not have remit over others family life
while making themselves exempt.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2010-10-06.241.0

Alan Shatter in 2010 wrote:

Too many Irish citizens engaged in a full family and properly intimate marriage relationship, experience difficulties in having a non-Irish non-EU spouse granted residency rights in this State in circumstances in which no difficulty should arise. Essentially, because Irish citizens do not have a statutory right to be joined by family members who are non-EU citizens in Ireland, they can experience what can properly be described as reverse discrimination in comparison to the rights that apply to other EU citizens under the EU Freedom of Movement Directive 2004.

acme4242

On the matter of free movement of Irish Citizens and their family.
Ireland is in stark contrast to other EU countries.

In Italy, the Italian free-movement law says
“The provisions of this Legislative Decree, if more favourable, apply to the families of Italian citizens”.

In Portugal,
"the regulations of this law applicable to family members are extendable to family members of citizens of Portuguese nationality"

In Ireland, the Irish free-movement law says
“Member State” means a Member State of the European Union other than the State
..So Irish Citizens and their family are not entitled to EU free movement or equality

thank you Fianna Fail, your corrupt legacy remains,

Cody Pomeray

I think it is unfair to characterize this as an Irish problem.

Generally, an EU citizen and his or her spouse or partner cannot exercise EU treaty rights as the domestic provisions will apply. Therefore, in other countries, for example in the UK, a domestic citizen cannot enjoy the same rights as (say) an Irish citizen in the UK, with the Irish citizen's 3rd country spouse, can enjoy.

The only exception to this is, as stated, if you leave your country of nationality and exercise EU rights, then return to your country of nationality, whereby your rights will be enhanced.

But, importantly, Ireland is not alone in adapting these procedures.

acme4242

my post from yesterday

.
The majority of EU countries ensure equality towards their own citizens who have a mixed marriage, marrying a non-EU citizen.
The minority of EU states that do implement reverse discrimination have a history of racial and immigrant issues, we are talking Germany, UK, Denmark

Yes, the UK do it, But as they would shout at you in school, just because someone else does wrong, gives you no excuse.
The reverse discrimination in Ireland to Irish Citizens cannot be blamed on British Law makers.

Cody Pomeray

I'm not blaming the other EU states that follow the same procedure as Ireland. Clearly Ireland is responsible for itself.

I'm just warning against presenting this situation as uniquely Irish, when we know it exists elsewhere.

I'm also very uncomfortable with your comparison of this provision to "a history of racial issues" in places like Germany.

nesf

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I'm also very uncomfortable with your comparison of this provision to "a history of racial issues" in places like Germany.

One assumes he's talking about Turkish immigration and the integration problems therein as opposed to older incidents.

acme4242

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I'm not blaming the other EU states that follow the same procedure as Ireland. Clearly Ireland is responsible for itself.

I'm just warning against presenting this situation as uniquely Irish, when we know it exists elsewhere.

For Reverse Discrimination against Irish Citizens and their family, I am 100%
blaming the institution which created it, the Irish Dept of Justice and Equality.
The EU didn't force it upon Ireland, nor other member states.
So yes the problem is a uniquely Irish made problem, and can only be solved uniquely Irish.

yes, wrong exists elsewhere, so does right.
By mentioning Italy and Portugal law, I'm showing how equality can be ensured.
And the majority ensure equality.

For the Irish Dept of Justice and Equality, to decide itself, and that Irish Citizens should not be entitled to equality. should be second class because
they have a mixed marriage, is not acceptable.
There is no international obligation for this abhorrent absurd situation to exist, its a purely Irish made and in very recent times.

Minister John O'Donoghue kicked this all off, by removing post-nuptial citizenship from Irish families, but it took a number of lies to clear the way.
We briefly remember them now

John O'Donoghue wrote:

The termination of the post-nuptial citizenship scheme will not adversely affect the situation of non-national spouses in terms, for example, of their joining their Irish spouses in this State. There are well established immigration procedures which secure the admission of non-national spouses of Irish nationals

The present immigration arrangements recognise the special position of non-national spouses of Irish citizens. Such spouses, regardless of their nationality, There are no immigration limitations operating to inhibit non-national spouses seeking to come to the State.

In the immigration and residence Bill which is being drafted in the Department at present to replace the entirely outdated and inadvisedly named Aliens Act and its associated orders with a modern and sensible code of immigration law, the immigration status of non-national spouses of Irish citizens will be reaffirmed.

acme4242

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I'm also very uncomfortable with your comparison of this provision to "a history of racial issues" in places like Germany.

I'm not mentioning older incidents..
But you are right, I used an inappropriate and uncomfortable comparison and I apologise.

I should have said history of multiculturalism issues.

I'm talking about this type of political rhetoric from 2010,
"Merkel says German multiculturalism has failed"
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2010/10/16/uk-germany-merkel-immigration-idUKTRE69F19T20101016

again, I apologise,