Is there actually a link between the irish name for ireland and the irish for irish?

penzo

as in eire and gaelige? maybe or over simplyfying it but wouldn't most countries have very similar words? although tbh i'm not actually sure what either word literally means.

cheers

Davidius

Gaeilge descends from a form meaning 'of the Gaels'.
Éire descends from a word ultimately meaning 'fertile land' I believe.
I don't think there is any link between the two.

I am not too knowledgeable on the subject but I'll give it a go. I suppose the Gaels identified more as being a cultural grouping rather than as 'people from Ireland' especially because they had spread to Scotland and Mann by this point. The notion of being Irish or Scottish or Manx was probably a later development after the culture and politics diverged. Also up until recently the perspective seems to be more that Irish, Scottish Gaelic and Manx were dialects of the same language.

There are countries with similar names for their language and nation. There are a few of those that have names which come from the name of the common language of the people, rather than the language name coming from the place name. If a Gaelic language was the first language of Ireland, Scotland and Mann and they politically united then they might be called 'Gael-land' (then proceed to be referred to as 'Gay-land').

In countries with many regional languages then there might be attempts to give a language political prestige by naming it after the country. This is often done to undermine other languages native to the region. For example the Spanish government referring to Castillian as Spanish/Espanol when there are other languages native to Spain.

johnolocher

There isn't a link between the names, the Gael's spoke Gaelic (gaeilge) but te Gael's never identified as a island nation they were more a lose federation of tribes who identified with their families and kingdoms. Ireland also was never entirely Gaelic so we didnt become Gaelland or something. Dublin was founded as a Viking settlement, and later we had the Normans & British. Ireland developed from the goddess Eiru, I'm not entirely sure when name Ireland started bein used. But there is no link between Éire and Gaeilge.

I think calling the Irish language Irish in English is relatively recent development as some way to politicise Irish and Ireland, ie a country with its own language to bolster a separate cultural identity around the time of the Gaelic league and the independence movement of the late 1800's.

An Coilean

johnolocher wrote: »

There isn't a link between the names, the Gael's spoke Gaelic (gaeilge) but te Gael's never identified as a island nation they were more a lose federation of tribes who identified with their families and kingdoms. Ireland also was never entirely Gaelic so we didnt become Gaelland or something. Dublin was founded as a Viking settlement, and later we had the Normans & British. Ireland developed from the goddess Eiru, I'm not entirely sure when name Ireland started bein used. But there is no link between Éire and Gaeilge.

I think calling the Irish language Irish in English is relatively recent development as some way to politicise Irish and Ireland, ie a country with its own language to bolster a separate cultural identity around the time of the Gaelic league and the independence movement of the late 1800's.

Its not really accurate to say that the Gael never identified the island of Ireland as being a political entity of its self.
The political reality in Ireland was of many small kingdoms with a few overlords who exercised regional control. There was however a deeply embedded concept of what the traditional power structure of the island was, even if in practice it rarely lined up with the reality on the ground. Those concepts of a traditional power structure defined the regional powers, Commonly seen as Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Meath as fifths. I.E. they were seen as parts of a whole. Even if that whole was never realized in practice.
In fact Michael Richter's book on Medieval Ireland suggests that in Early Ireland, Ireland was not just considered to be a political whole, but was even seen as a world unto itself.


The use of the word Irish in English to describe the Irish Language goes back much further than the 1880's, its use is well documented several centuries before, for example by English officials complaining about the odious babbeling of the 'Irysh tounge' in the pale.

johnolocher

An Coilean wrote: »

Its not really accurate to say that the Gael never identified the island of Ireland as being a political entity of its self.
The political reality in Ireland was of many small kingdoms with a few overlords who exercised regional control. There was however a deeply embedded concept of what the traditional power structure of the island was, even if in practice it rarely lined up with the reality on the ground. Those concepts of a traditional power structure defined the regional powers, Commonly seen as Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Meath as fifths. I.E. they were seen as parts of a whole. Even if that whole was never realized in practice.
In fact Michael Richter's book on Medieval Ireland suggests that in Early Ireland, Ireland was not just considered to be a political whole, but was even seen as a world unto itself.


The use of the word Irish in English to describe the Irish Language goes back much further than the 1880's, its use is well documented several centuries before, for example by English officials complaining about the odious babbeling of the 'Irysh tounge' in the pale.

I am not of the opinion that the average Gael would have felt much of a national connection with Ireland. There was a connection between the Kingdoms but in my view the average Gael on the bog would have been proud to be from their family or their Kingdom if we are comparing the national unity we feel today for say Irish football. Politically like I said it was a loose federation of Kingdoms who recognised each other and sometimes fought and conquered each other, but I don't think the evidence is there to suggest it was ever a true nation, it was heading that way certainly but Gaelic Ireland was conquered before a true Gaelic nation could ever rise.

Thanks for the info on the term Irish.

penzo

thanks for the replies, interesting responses.

leaves me wondering now though when each of the names started being used. so was "ireland" an outside term that replaced eire? or was eire a just a more poetic name that never had serious political conantations?

I do find it strange that if we were widely known as the gaels what that word didn't find it self in out national name.

johnolocher

Éire and Ireland both come from Éiru (Ire-land). Éiru was a Gaelic goddess so there is the connection Gaelic Ireland, we are from the land of Éiru. So it wasn't one or the other it's simply an English and an Irish version. I would assume outsiders began naming us Ireland from natives saying Éire, thats only an assumption though. There were other names given to Ireland too such as Hibernia, I guess Ireland stuck.

penzo

ah so I guess, Ironically it's the english word for gaeilge that sort of mimics the trend of some other countries, as in england and english, eire and irish.

Paz-CCFC

johnolocher wrote: »

Éire and Ireland both come from Éiru (Ire-land). Éiru was a Gaelic goddess so there is the connection Gaelic Ireland, we are from the land of Éiru. So it wasn't one or the other it's simply an English and an Irish version. I would assume outsiders began naming us Ireland from natives saying Éire, thats only an assumption though. There were other names given to Ireland too such as Hibernia, I guess Ireland stuck.

I read that, in English, many countries began to become known as what it was in its people's native tongue with land added to the end. Éireland then had the É dropped and became down as Ireland.

An Sionnach Glic

johnolocher wrote: »

I think calling the Irish language Irish in English is relatively recent development as some way to politicise Irish and Ireland, ie a country with its own language to bolster a separate cultural identity around the time of the Gaelic league and the independence movement of the late 1800's.

Well it was called the Irish language in the Statutes of Kilkenny back as far as the 14th century, when the first legal efforts were made to suppress it. You can read the text here for yourself. http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T300001-001/index.html

article 3

III. Also, it is ordained and established, that every Englishman do use the

English language, and be named by an English name, leaving off entirely the manner of naming used by the Irish; and that every Englishman use the English custom, fashion, mode of riding and apparel, according to his estate; and if any English, or Irish living amongst the English, use the Irish language amongst themselves, contrary to the ordinance, and therof be attainted, his lands and tenements, if he have any, shall be seized into the hands of his immediate lord,

I have read that claim a number of times before (that calling the language 'Irish' in English is a recent creation of Irish nationalism), but it appears to me to be something concocted by revisionist historians such as Conor Cruise O'Brien, who sought to marginalise the language and to deprive it of a national identity out of anti-nationalist zeal. A short examination of numerous historical primary sources written by the English in Ireland show that it was referred to as 'the Irish language' or 'Irish' by the English authorities back as far as the Middle Ages.

If any term for the language is more recently coined, it is the anglicisation 'Gaelic' (beloved of those who refuse to call it 'Irish'), which, according to Chambers etymological dictionary of the English language, only goes back to the end of the 16th century ('Gathelik') at the earliest in recorded usage. The spelling 'Gaelic' has its origin in print in the 1770s, it states.

Ireland also was never entirely Gaelic so we didnt become Gaelland or something. Dublin was founded as a Viking settlement, and later we had the Normans & British.

While the Vikings, Normans and English certainly diluted the Gaelic nature of Ireland, I think we can assume fairly safely from the historical record that Ireland was 'entirely Gaelic' before those arrivals, many of whom were subsumed into the majority Gaelic society themselves, hence the passing of laws like the Statutes of Kilkenny above.

penzo

jayzuz, would not have thought it would go back that far !

maybe a mod could move this to the history forum, realizing it's more history based now than language really.


anyone any idea when eire and gaeilge started being used as terms to refer to ireland and irish?

johnolocher

penzo wrote: »

jayzuz, would not have thought it would go back that far !

maybe a mod could move this to the history forum, realizing it's more history based now than language really.


anyone any idea when eire and gaeilge started being used as terms to refer to ireland and irish?

No idea but I'd be very interested to know, perhaps you would get more responses in history.

An gal gréine

I doubt that what every region calls what they speak has changed down the centuries. There would be variations of their spelling but basically in Munster they call it Gaolainn, in Ulster Gaeilic and in Connacht Gaeilge. Of course in Scotland it was/is Gàidhlig (pronounced like the 'ga' in gallop but with emphasis) and in the Isle of Mann Gaelg.
In the last century the authorities in Ireland felt a standard needed to be imposed so 'Gaeilge' was plucked from the bunch. So we also now have 'Gaeilge na hAlbain' for Gàidhlig and 'Gaeilge Mhanainn' or 'Manannais' for Manx.
The English curiously also had a name for the language of Ireland/Scotland and that was Erse. The statutes of Kilkenny did'nt apply to Scotland so maybe that's why they therein used "the Irish language" instead of Erse.
These particular statutes were aimed at the English people now living in Ireland to make sure that what happened previously, when the foreigner became "more Irish than the Irish themselves" did not happen again.
Finally, the Irish at this time did'nt speak English so the term "the Irish Language" would have been new to them.

Agus

An gal gréine wrote: »

The English curiously also had a name for the language of Ireland/Scotland and that was Erse. The statutes of Kilkenny did'nt apply to Scotland so maybe that's why they therein used "the Irish language" instead of Erse.
.

Actually "Erse" isn't a separate word, it's originally just a variant of "Irish" (now rather archaic), and both these forms of the word derive ultimately from Éire / Ériu

Agus

penzo wrote: »

jayzuz, would not have thought it would go back that far !

maybe a mod could move this to the history forum, realizing it's more history based now than language really.


anyone any idea when eire and gaeilge started being used as terms to refer to ireland and irish?

The various forms of the name of the language derive from the word for "Gael" formerly "Gaedheal" and in Old Irish "Goidel". If you go back about 1500 years the Old Irish word in use at that stage seems to have been "Féni". It is suggested that by the 6th / 7th century the word "Goidel" had been borrowed by Old Irish from a Primitive Welsh word similar to the modern Welsh “Gwyddel” (Irish). It's also been suggested that "Goidel" and "Féni" actually ultimately go back to the same root word in Proto-Celtic / Proto-Indo European.

The modern "Éire" is from the Old Irish "Ériu", which seems to go right back before the beginnings of recorded history in Ireland. The etymology isn't certain but has been suggested to mean "fertile".

According to myth there was a goddess / personification of the land named Ériu who had two sisters called Banba and Fódla. When the Gaels first arrived each of the three sisters asked that they call the island after herself. The Gaels agreed to use all three names, and indeed all three names can be found in old Irish writings. However "Ériu" was most popular and ended up displacing the other two.

An gal gréine

Agus wrote: »

Actually "Erse" isn't a separate word, it's originally just a variant of "Irish" (now rather archaic), and both these forms of the word derive ultimately from Éire / Ériu

Yes I agree but the people were'nt called "the Erse people". They applied Erse to the language only.

mr chips

Fódla - I wonder would that have any connection to the word "fód" (earth), or am I leaping a bit too far here?

An Sionnach Glic

mr chips wrote: »

Fódla - I wonder would that have any connection to the word "fód" (earth), or am I leaping a bit too far here?

Plausible, though I don't have any evidence to support that either.

knoxwilliam

i think this word isn't gaelic (goidelic) in origin, but "welsh" (brythonic).

i think it's gaelic to use the -is suffix for languages.

of course be/arla (be/al ra/) is an exception too, although this is a gaelic (goidelic) word.

examples of endings similar to -ig (as in gaeilig) referring to languges, in welsh:

these are actually -eg not -ig:

y gymraeg (welsh)
y saesneg (english)
yr wyddeleg (irish)
yr aeleg (gaelic)
y frythoneg (brythonic)
yr albaneg (albanian)
yr almaeneg (german)