Loyalists plan march on Dublin.

SoulandForm

The chief organizer of this nearly marched on Dublin before but was prevented by a riot inspired by his links to Loyalist paramilitaries and the fact that his march planned to pass near by the site of the worst Loyalist atrocity. One of the demands is that the Dail not fly the Irish Tricolour; what is lost on him is that the vote about the flag on Belfast city hall was to bring it into line with the UK mainland and that the ROI government had nothing to do with the decision. He also wants the ROI government to completely stay out of Northern Ireland and is annoyed by their lobbying into inquiries into the deaths of ROI passport holders such as Pat Finnucane.

He does have a history though of making wild promises and than not going through with him.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/loyalist-flag-protesters-to-target-oireachtas-tricolour-in-dublin-16255998.html

RichardAnd

They're entitled to protest, I've no issue with that so long as they do so peacefully and we don't have a repeat of last time this was tried. I do, however, think that this flag business is insane. The solution I would have proposed is to fly the union jack 365 days a year and put a tri-colour up on a pole beside it. If anyone else gets upset, they can stick up another flag and then another and perhaps this tribalism might fizzle out.

Mr.Micro

RichardAnd wrote: »

They're entitled to protest, I've no issue with that so long as they do so peacefully and we don't have a repeat of last time this was tried. I do, however, think that this flag business is insane. The solution I would have proposed is to fly the union jack 365 days a year and put a tri-colour up on a pole beside it. If anyone else gets upset, they can stick up another flag and then another and perhaps this tribalism might fizzle out.

The whole flag business was the start of all this trouble, and I hope those on the City Council are happy now for their petty vindictive decision which has set back harmony for some time to come.

SoulandForm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The whole flag business was the start of all this trouble, and I hope those on the City Council are happy now for their petty vindictive decision which has set back harmony for some time to come.

Just exactly how was bringing Belfast into line with the practice of the UK mainland a petty vindictive decision? You realize that the decision to fly the Union Jack 24/7 was made during the Anglo-Irish Agreement crisis and so served as an attempt to show the "tea eggs" who was boss?

The fact of the response and the fact that the flag was flown previously 24/7 shows that there was no harmony to begin with.

Dubhlinner

That's fierce non partitionist for a loyalist

guttenberg

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The whole flag business was the start of all this trouble, and I hope those on the City Council are happy now for their petty vindictive decision which has set back harmony for some time to come.

In September loyalists paraded triumphantly marking the signing of the Ulster Covenant, two months later and they are up in arms that Belfast Councillors democratically decided to only fly the flag in line with the rest of the UK, not 365 days. What an end to 2012 for loyalism eh?

I hope the irony of organising a protest to Dublin to dictate to them about flying the tricolour in protest about ROI "interference" in NI matters is not lost on them. Is it not a bit of a misnomer to call Willie Frazer a victims campaigner anyway? The EU are demanding back the money given to his F.A.I.R grouping as they realised just how bigoted his views are.

Chuck Stone

They shouldn't be allowed to come down.

HowAreWe

Let them come down. :cool:

RobFowl

As long as it's legal let them do what they want.
Have to say anything with William Frazier in it usually is on the crackpot end of the political spectrum so a stunt like this doesn't surprise coming from him.

tayto lover

They could march through Dundalk on the way

hyperborean

The bookies will be empty when all the Celtic jersey wearing wasters go in to throw stones at them.

Mr.Micro

SoulandForm wrote: »

Just exactly how was bringing Belfast into line with the practice of the UK mainland a petty vindictive decision? You realize that the decision to fly the Union Jack 24/7 was made during the Anglo-Irish Agreement crisis and so served as an attempt to show the "tea eggs" who was boss?

The fact of the response and the fact that the flag was flown previously 24/7 shows that there was no harmony to begin with.

Would you say that the decision has brought us to a good place in bringing Belfast into line with the UK mainland? I think not. Taking away a flag from certain people is a big thing and react accordingly. Whatever harmony there was with the flag there is none now, that is for sure. Timing is everything.

old hippy

hyperborean wrote: »

The bookies will be empty when all the Celtic jersey wearing wasters go in to throw stones at them.

I go to the bookies and wouldn't be seen dead in a football jersey. Plus, I'm not into throwing stones at people I disagree with :rolleyes:

They should be allowed march and protest all they want. It's a democracy, after all.

SoulandForm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Would you say that the decision has brought us to a good place in bringing Belfast into line with the UK mainland? I think not. Taking away a flag from certain people is a big thing and react accordingly. Whatever harmony there was with the flag there is none now, that is for sure. Timing is everything.

So you think that Loyalists should be able to dictate with their bullying what happens in Northern Ireland whether they are a majority or not?

SoulandForm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Would you say that the decision has brought us to a good place in bringing Belfast into line with the UK mainland? I think not. Taking away a flag from certain people is a big thing and react accordingly. Whatever harmony there was with the flag there is none now, that is for sure. Timing is everything.

When would be a good time? For Loyalism there would NEVER have been a good time. Loyalism is not based on a principles of harmony- its a principle of "No Surrender" with a huge disdain for "Rotten Prods" and "Lundeys". They interpret compromise as a sign of weakness. You seem very unconcerned about what the celebration of the Ulster Covenant with its threats of mass slaughter against the democratic wishes of the Irish people for Home Rule (Home Rule and NOT Independence) and the yearly Orange Order marches that prevent Northern Ireland from reaching its tourist potential mean to nationalists, republicans and people who are just Roman Catholic. Do you think Loyalists would consider cancelling such for the sake of how others feel?

oscarBravo

SoulandForm wrote: »

So you think that Loyalists should be able to dictate with their bullying what happens in Northern Ireland whether they are a majority or not?

Do you think that any majority should be allowed to dictate with their bullying, or only majorities you agree with?

SoulandForm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Do you think that any majority should be allowed to dictate with their bullying, or only majorities you agree with?

No.

But in the case we are hardly talking about a statue to the Provos in Portadown are we?

Personally I would like no flags or the St Patrick's Cross.

I dont bringing Belfast into line with the UK mainland bullying. Do you?

oscarBravo

SoulandForm wrote: »

I dont bringing Belfast into line with the UK mainland bullying. Do you?

No, but then I didn't consider the year-round flying of the flag to be bullying of nationalists.

If there's one thing that never ceases to depress me about Northern Irish politics, it's how each side leaps to the conclusion that every action of the other is calculated to cause the maximum offence, but innocently proclaims that their own every action is mere logic with no intention to bother any right-thinking person in any way.

I guess my point is, if you're prepared to take offence easily, you ought to be prepared to consider whether your own actions give offence. If you don't care how others feel about your actions, then don't get all huffy if they don't care how you feel about theirs.

mathepac

SoulandForm wrote: »

... to bring it into line with the UK mainland ...

I think you might mean the collection of islands commonly referred to as Great Britain. There is no such thing as a UK mainland, although many Loyalists and Unionists like to imagine there is.

SoulandForm wrote: »

... and that the ROI government had nothing to do with the decision. He also wants the ROI government to completely stay out of Northern Ireland . ...

I think you might mean "Irish Government" there as there is no such country as ROI. Ireland or Eire is fine by me or even IRL or IE, the internationally designated and recognised abbreviations

SoulandForm wrote: »

... ROI passport holders such as Pat Finnucane. ...

Irish passport holders.

Galwayguy35

old hippy wrote: »

I go to the bookies and wouldn't be seen dead in a football jersey. Plus, I'm not into throwing stones at people I disagree with :rolleyes:

They should be allowed march and protest all they want. It's a democracy, after all.

Not down here they shouldn't, the tricolour is none of their business.

fkt

When is this?

Mr.Micro

SoulandForm wrote: »

When would be a good time? For Loyalism there would NEVER have been a good time. Loyalism is not based on a sake of how others feel?

The timing was wrong IMO, the Councillors at Belfast City Council were being petty, vindictive and possibly downright calculated trouble stirring by insisting on the flag being flown for less days. Who even noticed the flag before the decision was mad? For a small petty decision it has enormous capacity to create trouble and certainly was never worth the risk of reversing the peace process.

iDave

Never attended a protest march in my life but id quite happily stand outside Dail Eireann and defend our tricolour from the intolerence and apartheid of loyalism

mathepac

HowAreWe wrote: »

Let them come down. :cool:

No stop them at the Border and give them maps to Belfast City Hall where apparently the decision was taken democratically.

It's about time this bunch of bullies were educated that throwing the toys out of the pram is not the answer and if they want less interference in NI affairs from the Irish government, they might set the tone for the level of non-involvement they would like.

Will this happen? Not a chance IMHO.

COYW

RichardAnd wrote: »

They're entitled to protest, I've no issue with that so long as they do so peacefully and we don't have a repeat of last time this was tried.

I agree that they are welcome to protest but they played no part in the rioting around the Lover Ulster rally. In fact, the loyalists were well on the way back up to Belfast when the worst of the rioting happened. Unfortunately, I can only see their visit ending in one thing, more trouble.

I feel sorry for our police. They will have to face the worst of this, just like the Love Ulster march. I hope the riot police are present from the start and use maximum force to deal with any trouble makers.

As I said before, the decision to take down the flag in Belfast was petty and vindictive.

SoulandForm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The timing was wrong IMO, the Councillors at Belfast City Council were being petty, vindictive and possibly downright calculated trouble stirring by insisting on the flag being flown for less days. Who even noticed the flag before the decision was mad? For a small petty decision it has enormous capacity to create trouble and certainly was never worth the risk of reversing the peace process.

The flying the flag 24/7 was a petty, vindictive and definitely downright hostile move by the Unionist council of the time; this decision was a COMPROMISE. At this stage probably most people in Belfast do not want the Union Jack up there at all. You are right though- the flag coming down has immense symbolic power which is why the Loyalists reacted the way they did. It is a clear sign that their days of bullying our coming to an end. Im sure knowing Northern Ireland that when there is a Catholic/Nationalist majority we may well see injustice meted out to Protestants/Scotch Irish, but maybe we should handle that when we get there?

glic71rods46t0

I say let them come down and protest if they wish. What they have to protest about is hard to figure out - they don't want the Irish Govt getting involved in NI but they want to influence issues in Dublin - wheres the logic?

SoulandForm

mathepac wrote: »

I think you might mean the collection of islands commonly referred to as Great Britain. There is no such thing as a UK mainland, although many Loyalists and Unionists like to imagine there is.
I think you might mean "Irish Government" there as there is no such country as ROI. Ireland or Eire is fine by me or even IRL or IE, the internationally designated and recognised abbreviations
Irish passport holders.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK (sad but true).

There are two states on this Island. The country is called Ireland- the ROI does not include the whole of the country, therefore calling it simply Ireland can be confusing.

SoulandForm

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, but then I didn't consider the year-round flying of the flag to be bullying of nationalists.

Flags are used as markers. Pathetically some people even paint the curbstones Red, White and Blue or Green, White and Orange. The original decision to fly the flag all year round was made to send a strong message to the Nationalists and Republicans of Belfast that City Hall was in no way "theirs", that it belonged to "us".

pablomakaveli

I dont think they should be allowed down. Their only intention no matter what they say is to provoke trouble like the last time and we cant trust our own trouble element to behave if they do.

Besides the security of our own cities should be placed above the want of a bunch of essentially foreigners who want to hold a petty tantrum throwing session.

mathepac

SoulandForm wrote: »

... There are two states on this Island. The country is called Ireland- the ROI does not include the whole of the country, therefore calling it simply Ireland can be confusing.

There is no such entity as "the ROI" There is a sovereign state called Ireland (my country) and there is a section called Northern Ireland which belongs to the United Kingdom. Were is there any source of confusion?

An Irish citizen is entitled to bear a passport with the name "Ireland" proudly emblazoned on it; why use any other name for the country that issued it?

SoulandForm

mathepac wrote: »

There is no such entity as "the ROI" There is a sovereign state called Ireland (my country) and there is a section called Northern Ireland which belongs to the United Kingdom. Were is there any source of confusion?

An Irish citizen is entitled to bear a passport with the name "Ireland" proudly emblazoned on it; why use any other name for the country that issued it?

Ireland refers first and foremost to the country/nation Ireland.

Would it be better to use the term "Free State"?

Defiler Of The Coffin

mathepac wrote: »

An Irish citizen is entitled to bear a passport with the name "Ireland" proudly emblazoned on it; why use any other name for the country that issued it?

For disambiguation. A lot of people out there are confused or simply don't know what the story is with the name of the 26 county-state. It's called Ireland of course but I don't see the problem with referring to it as the ROI, it can help to clarify matters.

oscarBravo

SoulandForm wrote: »

Flags are used as markers. Pathetically some people even paint the curbstones Red, White and Blue or Green, White and Orange. The original decision to fly the flag all year round was made to send a strong message to the Nationalists and Republicans of Belfast that City Hall was in no way "theirs", that it belonged to "us".

...and the decision to end the year-round flying of the flag was made to send a strong message back that now it's "ours" and not "yours" anymore.

Either everyone's sending messages, or no-one's sending messages. Either every symbolic gesture is bullying, or none of them are.

The only thing that bugs me more than the hyper-sensitivity on display by both sides is the hypocrisy that they all have in common.

SoulandForm

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and the decision to end the year-round flying of the flag was made to send a strong message back that now it's "ours" and not "yours" anymore.
.

No its not.

Flying the Irish Tricolour could be considered that.

Flying no flag at all would be a neutral genuine compromise.

Flying the flag in line with the rest of UK is just putting an end to an aggressive act that should never have taken place.

Offy

What Ive read so far really doesnt make sense. As keth67lyoxsp59 said:

keth67lyoxsp59 wrote: »

they don't want the Irish Govt getting involved in NI but they want to influence issues in Dublin - wheres the logic?

The Irish government had no say on the flag issue in NI. That was decided by elected representatives in NI.
Im not surprised the Irish government wants answers as to why an Irish passprt holder was murdered by protestants death squads aided by a British government department. They have every right to ask questions about such an event.
I dont see their protest achieving anything other than trouble. Perhaps thats what they really want.

old hippy

SoulandForm wrote: »

Ireland refers first and foremost to the country/nation Ireland.

Would it be better to use the term "Free State"?

Eugh. I prefer the Republic of Ireland, myself. Free State sounds like something the Northern Irish folk would use.

Project Werewolf

mathepac wrote: »

There is no such entity as "the ROI" There is a sovereign state called Ireland (my country) and there is a section called Northern Ireland which belongs to the United Kingdom. Were is there any source of confusion?

An Irish citizen is entitled to bear a passport with the name "Ireland" proudly emblazoned on it; why use any other name for the country that issued it?

From Wikipedia's article on Names of the Irish State:

There have been various names of the Irish state, some of which have been controversial. The constitutional name of the contemporary state is Ireland,[1] the same as the island of Ireland, of which it comprises the major portion. In 1949 it declared itself a republic and adopted the term Republic of Ireland as its official description while keeping the name Ireland.

You're being pedantic.

SoulandForm

old hippy wrote: »

Eugh. I prefer the Republic of Ireland, myself. Free State sounds like something the Northern Irish folk would use.

I am from Northern Ireland.

oscarBravo

SoulandForm wrote: »

No its not.

Right, so. Unionists and loyalists bully and send messages with their every act and utterance; nationalists and republicans have no interest in such power games, and only ever act out of selflessness and a desire to compromise.

SoulandForm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Right, so. Unionists and loyalists bully and send messages with their every act and utterance; nationalists and republicans have no interest in such power games, and only ever act out of selflessness and a desire to compromise.

Where did I say that.

For the record the naming of the playground recently in South Armagh of an IRA man I found extremely insensitive towards the local PUL population given certain circumstances. Im sure I can think of other times the Shinners have been out of order.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

This forum can only handle so many shítshow NI threads at one time. Closed.

In the future, if you want to actually have threads on different topics related to Northern Ireland, then stop making the same arguments and picking the same fights in every thread - they are becoming indistinguishable.