Novenas and vain repetitions... please educate me!

martinedwards

From where I'm sitting, (at the prod end of things) I look at the Bible and see avoid vain repititions.

I see look at the hypocrytes who thing thier many prayers will make a difference....

then I see thousands of RC believers who get great peace and a very spiritual journey through the novena style of prayer......

so please, show me what I've missed (because I must have missed something!!)

The Jammy dodger

The focus is not on repetition on that piece of scripture, the focus is upon ''vain'' prayer. Jesus reptetively prayed in the Garden of Gethsemene three times he asked His Father to let it all pass him by, was Jesus praying in Vain just because He repeated the prayer? Of course not.

So the issue Jesus have with is not the repetition, its the ''vanity''.

SoulandForm

Obviously Novenas can be vain petitions but they are not necessarily.

If people believe that just repeating prayers without putting their heart into it will work mechanically they are indulging in vain petitions.

georgieporgy

Elsewhere in scripture Jesus instructs his followers to "Pray always". And by this he means 24/7. That might lead one to suspect occasional repetition may be involved.

You are married with kids. If your kids say "I love you, I love you , I love you"
many times a day, will you be annoyed with them? Contrast that with the child who never talks to his parents and behaves as if the world owes him a living and complains if his parents don't give him stuff when he asks for it.

Great explanations of this and other questions which drive Prods nuts can be found in any good apologetics book. Authors with a nice style that I recommend are Scott and Kimberley Hahn, Peter Kreeft, Fulton Sheen.
But there are many others too.

Peregrinus

Yup, I don’t think we can read this passage as directed against all forms of repetitive prayer.

I suspect - but I think you’d need someone with a bit more scripture scholarship than I have to be sure - that this was directed at “magical” prayer; the notion that if you say just the right words just the right number of times while standing in just the right posture you can procure the spiritual equivalent of a rabbit popping out of a hat.

I think we need to distinguish between vain repetitive prayer of this kind, and [/i]regular[/i] prayer which is a long-standing Christian tradition, and which often involves repetition. Not just Catholic novenas but rosaries, the divine office, the liturgies of the Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodox, etc traditions, the Jesus prayer, the Lord’s prayer, and many more besides all either involve repetition or are themselves frequently repeated.

martinedwards

OK, thanks for thet.

I can see the value in, say, the Lords prayer, said regularly.

but the idea of "Say 3 our fathers and half a dozen hail Marys"

is that a movie stereotype or is that for real as pennance after confession?

now THAT really does look like vain repetition to me

totus tuus

Many Catholic prayers have indulgences attached to them. An Indulgence remits temporal punishment due to sin which is already forgiven in the Sacrament of confession. In other words, it shortens or omits the time that would be spent in Purgatory after death. The indulgences can also be offered on behalf of the the Souls in Purgatory.

"Can. 992 An indulgence is the remission before God of temporal punishment for sins whose guilt is already forgiven, which a properly disposed member of the Christian faithful gains under certain and defined conditions by the assistance of the Church which as minister of redemption dispenses and applies authoritatively the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints." (1983 Code of Canon Law)

"An indulgence is the remission in the eyes of God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose culpable element has already been taken away. The Christian faithful who are rightly disposed and observe the definite, prescribed conditions gain this remission through the effective assistance of the Church, which, as the minister of redemption, authoritatively distributes and applies the treasury of the expiatory works of Christ and the saints." (Norms for Indulgences)

There are two types of indulgences, plenary and partial.

The following link will give a list of indulgenced prayers.

http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/cg/indulgences.htm#Indulgence%20Information

SoulandForm

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/contrition-attrition.htm

Interesting short article here that ties in with whats being discussed.

homer911

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/contrition-attrition.htm

Interesting short article here that ties in with whats being discussed.

Probably worthy of a thread on its own..

Peregrinus

martinedwards wrote: »

OK, thanks for thet.

I can see the value in, say, the Lords prayer, said regularly.

but the idea of "Say 3 our fathers and half a dozen hail Marys"

is that a movie stereotype or is that for real as pennance after confession?

now THAT really does look like vain repetition to me

You don’t say why it looks vain to you.

The formal penance assigned in confession often (but not always) takes the form of set prayers, just as you describe. It’s largely symbolic - it’s not the set prayers, or the recital of the set prayers, which secures the forgiveness of sin. Rather, the function of the penance is to point to the importance of persisting in repentance - a change of mind and heart, leading to a change of life, and a turning away from sin.

When engaged in repetitive prayer, you can concentrate on the words of the particular prayer that you are repeating. But another way to look at it is to see the repetition of the prayer as a way of first focusing and then stilling the mind, so that you can engage in some deeper reflection or contemplation - precisely the kind of reflection or contemplation, I suggest, which is helpful in fostering a change of mind and heart, which is what the sacrament of reconciliation is all about.

homer911

Peregrinus wrote: »

When engaged in repetitive prayer, you can concentrate on the words of the particular prayer that you are repeating. But another way to look at it is to see the repetition of the prayer as a way of first focusing and then stilling the mind, so that you can engage in some deeper reflection or contemplation - precisely the kind of reflection or contemplation, I suggest, which is helpful in fostering a change of mind and heart, which is what the sacrament of reconciliation is all about.

again, possibly a movie/tv stereotype, but the apparent repetition "at a rate of knots" would counter this view - surely its not possible to "concentrate on the words" if the objective seems to be to get through the whole thing as quickly as possible?

Peregrinus

If you are "praying the words", then you'll recite the prayer slowly. But more usually repetitive prayer is used as an aid to reflection, in which case people often find it helpful to recite it in a rhythmic murmur, often at quite a fair clip.

I don't know about movie depiction of people taking their assigned penances at a gallop; I honestly don't think I've seen any myself. If you do see that, it may have been intended as a comment on the character. In a movie you're more likely to see a depiction of someone praying the rosary, say, and praying it by choice, in which case if they do seem to be speaking fast it's not because they want to finish it - they're under no obligation to begin it, or to complete it.

homer911

Yes, probably not fair to make generalisations