Help with valuation of medieval sword please?

Becks251

Hi can anyone help with any info or valuation of this sword please. I have attached a picture. If you are able to help I have more pictures I can send you.

Thanks

Judgement Day

Becks251 wrote: »

Hi can anyone help with any info or valuation of this sword please. I have attached a picture. If you are able to help I have more pictures I can send you.

Thanks

No pic.

ahnowbrowncow

Becks251 wrote: »

Hi can anyone help with any info or valuation of this sword please. I have attached a picture. If you are able to help I have more pictures I can send you.

Thanks

I'll give you 1 shilling

Becks251

Further picture

Dr Strange

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

I'll give you 1 shilling

Please refrain from posting if you have nothing constructive to say.

Merch

I thought when I saw it, along the lines of something Morrocan or Ethiopian or maybe Indian.
(it could be a reproduction of a sword design from a location which was later ruled by another power).

While it looks like a cavalry sword (less likely in the above, more so the latter two possibly).
I'm basing that cavalry opinion more on the scabbard, (now I'm not an expert or an assesor in any way, just have an interest in militaria)
I was sure I'd seen something like this in a book I have, so when I looked it up, there is a almost identical design called a
"shamshir" says its the classic Persian saber, curved blade. The pommel is identical in the drawing I have to the one on that image and the guard closely matches it too, (but) it also says the design is found in India. Not being so far from each other I can see how thats possible.

Do you have any closer images? is that some material on the scabbard?, how'd you come across it?

with shamshir as a starting point, I found this on google by going to images and clicking on what looks appropriate (http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/index.html)

As for value, don't have an idea

Also, I wouldn't be so sure its medieval, maybe post medieval (if thats a term in usage) the info I show points to 17th century on up to the mid or late 19th century, but I'm sure they found and perfected a design over a long time, that spawned variations based on access to materials and specific needs.

dpofloinn

From the pictures I would hazard a guess at it being a Kilij a Turkish style of sword http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilij
Quite popular with the British post Waterloo as the Duke of Wellington favored a similar style of sword.I wouldn't even take a guess at its exact age or value only to say it is probably Victorian .Could you post more pictures of the sword without the scabbard and post more info about the sword such as blade length,degree of the curvature.Are there any markings on the blade or the ricasso?

Merch

dpofloinn wrote: »

From the pictures I would hazard a guess at it being a Kilij a Turkish style of sword http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilij
Quite popular with the British post Waterloo as the Duke of Wellington favored a similar style of sword.I wouldn't even take a guess at its exact age or value only to say it is probably Victorian .Could you post more pictures of the sword without the scabbard and post more info about the sword such as blade length,degree of the curvature.Are there any markings on the blade or the ricasso?

Is it too late to say I thought it might have had a turkish look to it

Although I stick with my original assertion of shamshir, I believe it looks like the turkish blades thicken out towards the tip and generally seem to have a wider blade than this slender design that is angled steeply from the blade.
I couldn't find anything that looked like it in the book I have, but its a fairly limited book with only a section on swords.
Actually, that wiki link says kilij is turkish for sword, I think shamshir is the equivalent for the Persians, it means sword I believe.
I've read that a similar design was used in India by the Mhugals, but the handgaurd and pommels were different from the info I saw, it seems likely a sword of this design (possibly used on horseback/suited to mounted use) could easily have travelled and become widespread over the mid-near east region of Asia, and evolved into slightly different designs over a long period of time.
It looks like the predominant shape is a steeply curved blade to the point, it seems likely that later European designs for cavalry swords were copied from this design?

I should say in use up to the 20th century, I cant find a picture but a similar weapon may have been used by Russian Cossacks, while a film might not be good for authenticating history, it might not be too far off, I think in Dr Zhivago, cossacks are seen breaking up a demonstration with a similar weapon too?

http://www.tsarsarsenal.com/long_w.htm
At the end of this page there are some examples
klytch (kilji) and shamshir are all mentioned

Becks251

Thanks for all your help everyone, I have posted some more pictures of the blade itself. There are definitely some x markings on the blade and there seems to be some other writing. The actual blade is approx 33 inches. We came across it as it belonged to my grans sister and we think she spent time travelling but don't know where.

Becks251

Another picture

Merch

Hard to make that out
not that Im a linguistic expert, but it doesnt look arabic.

Maybe its an older version of a current language,
It might help if you knew where this person went on travels to? other corroborating information, like postcards or the date it occured to get an idea what was possible, ie was a certain place unlikely because it was inaccessible to foreigners or tourists or due to war etc, so rule out stuff first then try and narrow down what was possible?

having said that, an item purchased in X country doesnt mean it originated there, it could have travelled for a long distance over a long time.

You'd need to do a bit of research or consult a museum, maybe in the UK?
Turkic? Kufic??

Maybe look up languages at possible locations, and see what was in use where and try and get examples of the scripts they used?

dpofloinn

''I've read that a similar design was used in India by the Mhugals, but the handgaurd and pommels were different from the info I saw, it seems likely a sword of this design (possibly used on horseback/suited to mounted use) could easily have traveled and become widespread over the mid-near east region of Asia, and evolved into slightly different designs over a long period of time.''

Yes you wouldn't be wrong there.The shamshir sword style migrated from Persia to India, Egypt and North Africa and to Turkey and lead to variations such as the Kilij,the Mameluke etc

These swords gained popularity with both the British and French in the Napoleonic period and as far as i know the 1831 pattern Mameluke style sword is still the regulation dress sword for British Generals.The Mameluke is also the current dress sword of the USMC

dpofloinn

My Knowledge of Arabic languages is poor to say the least. I do know there many regional variations.I wonder do you work with or know anyone with a Middle Eastern or North African background who might recognise the script and point you in the direction of its country of origin? In the past and even now if you walk down any market in Turkey,Egypt etc you will meet countless traders with Tourist trinkets like traditional swords, knives etc .So it could be tourist bring back or indeed nothing to say it wasn't picked up in a flea market or auction 40 years ago.It might be no harm to send an email to some museums with plenty of pictures and see what happens

Becks251

Hi everyone,

Thanks again for all your help it is very much appreciated and very useful. Iam trying to get someone to have a look at the markings on the sword and see what they mean and I will also contract my gran to see if she tell me any more about it.
I will let you know if I get any other info.

Becky

Merch

update us with some info of what you find out
A value would be interesting, but personally I'd prefer to see that on a wall rather than sold.

Becks251

Hi Merch,

I emailed the photos to bonhams auctioneers out of interest and they have just replied advising that it is a 19th century shamshir so you were right but they don't say where it originates from. They would like to put in their sale and have stated a £600-£800 guide price.

I am still fascinated as to where it has come for and how it came to be In my family so will be looking into this further and unsure now as to whether to sell but will see what happens.

Thanks for all your help.

Kind regards

Becky

Merch

Interesting,
Well, if you ever find out what the writing is, let us know.

Becks251

Hi everyone,
Just to update you that the sword is now with bonhams auctioneers and they have advised that it has a rhino horn grip, we never even realised this. We have to get a license if we want to sell it, I wonder does that give any indication of age or where it came from? I am still interested to find out more about the sword but we have still decided to sell... It will be listed in the armoury auction at bonhams on 24/04/13.