Lock picks...

LazyClouds

Just wondering if this was an accurate gif:



If it's not could someone please explain how one picks a lock?

Morag

TOG the dublin Hackerspace run a group for those wishing to learn lockpicking skills.
http://www.tog.ie/calendar/ or try a hackerspace near you.

Squeaky the Squirrel

Youtube is full of vids

fasttalkerchat

Worth pointing out that its illegal to have one so keep yourself right when experimenting/teaching yourself.

Deise Musashi

Definitely carrying those would be considered "going equipped".

Take a look at lock scrubbing and bumping if your interested though.

Gosub

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Worth pointing out that its illegal to have one so keep yourself right when experimenting/teaching yourself.

Is it illegal in Ireland to carry picks and associated equipment? One of my hobbies is lock picking. I love puzzles. Untangling huge knots is a great pleasure of mine. I see locks as the ultimate puzzle. The stronger the security the greater the challenge. I carry locks and picks in my car to fiddle with while I'm waiting for the other half outside a shop. Am I breaking the law?

Back to topic. Yes that is an accurate representation of basic picking.

aaakev

Gosub wrote: »

Is it illegal in Ireland to carry picks and associated equipment? One of my hobbies is lock picking. I love puzzles. Untangling huge knots is a great pleasure of mine. I see locks as the ultimate puzzle. The stronger the security the greater the challenge. I carry locks and picks in my car to fiddle with while I'm waiting for the other half outside a shop. Am I breaking the law?

Back to topic. Yes that is an accurate representation of basic picking.

Yes you are actually breaking the law! My own opinion on this would be the same as carrying a knife, if your not acting the mick no one will have any reason to hassle you

Gosub

aaakev wrote: »

Yes you are actually breaking the law! My own opinion on this would be the same as carrying a knife, if your not acting the mick no one will have any reason to hassle you

Wow! I'm not in Ireland at the moment, and it's not illegal here in Spain. But when I return I can't carry on my hobby? I'd better take the mini picks out of my wallet when I go back for 2 weeks soon.

I don't suppose you'd know which section I would be falling foul of?

How do locksmiths get around this, is there a licencing system?

aaakev

Gosub wrote: »

Wow! I'm not in Ireland at the moment, and it's not illegal here in Spain. But when I return I can't carry on my hobby? I'd better take the mini picks out of my wallet when I go back for 2 weeks soon.

I don't suppose you'd know which section I would be falling foul of?

How do locksmiths get around this, is there a licencing system?

Dont know the exact section but it has been quoted here and elsewhere on boards before, if i was not on my phone id do a search...

Locksmiths are the only ones who are allowed have them!

I wouldnt worry too much, like i said unless your drawing attention to yourself no one is going to hassle you. Might not be the best thing to have on you going through customes at the airport though!!

Edit; found this thread in the law forum

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056401910?page=1#post_74607105

And this is the law being broken according to them

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0015.html#sec15

Gosub

aaakev wrote: »

Dont know the exact section but it has been quoted here and elsewhere on boards before, if i was not on my phone id do a search...

Locksmiths are the only ones who are allowed have them!

I wouldnt worry too much, like i said unless your drawing attention to yourself no one is going to hassle you. Might not be the best thing to have on you going through customes at the airport though!!

Edit; found this thread in the law forum

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056401910?page=1#post_74607105

And this is the law being broken according to them

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0015.html#sec15

Thanks for that! Off I go investigating. Apologies to OP for dragging this off topic.

I'll get me coat.

Edit: Reading that law it looks like they would have to prove intent. Keeping picks at your residence seems to be OK so, the hobby continues.

juice1304

It is not illegal to own/have in your possession or even to carry lockpicks unless the gardai have reason to believe you are robbing somewhere. And unless you have been picking locks for a number of years you won't be able to just walk up to a lock and open it in seconds, you would be better off using a bump key if you don't know what you are doing.
Also find me a garda that knows what a set of lockpicks look like. :rolleyes:
I have been picking locks for around eight years now it is easy enough once you get a hang of it.
I will answer any question if you like, Unless a mod says otherwise.:)
There used to be a big lockpicking community on youtube around six years ago. Here is one of my old videos from around five years ago.
The best picks are made by peterson i would'nt buy anything else, although you will ruin your first set so you would be better off making them, I will post a video on how to make a simple set if you like. Also learn to SPP single pin pick raking open a lock is only done by people who don't really know how to pick locks.
TOOOL have some good info and LSI and there are forums dedicated to locksport.

juice1304

aaakev wrote: »

Locksmiths are the only ones who are allowed have them!

That is wrong all you have to do is say you are a part time locksmith anyway, There is no licence to become a locksmith etc.. no training needed and most can't pick locks. You make more money charging to drill the barrel and replace the lock etc..

Squeaky the Squirrel

Theirs no lock pick police. Move on.

Mat the trasher

Anyone able to point me to a pick set for opening the type of lock used in wheel clamps. Useful hobby no?;)

aaakev

juice1304 wrote: »

That is wrong all you have to do is say you are a part time locksmith anyway, There is no licence to become a locksmith etc.. no training needed and most can't pick locks. You make more money charging to drill the barrel and replace the lock etc..

There was a thread a while back about this subject and someone who did it as a hobby explained it was illegal to have them, i thought the thread was in this forum but i cant seem to find it? From what i remember the person was pretty knowlegable on the subect ( or at least seemed to be.....)

Gosub

aaakev wrote: »

There was a thread a while back about this subject and someone who did it as a hobby explained it was illegal to have them, i thought the thread was in this forum but i cant seem to find it? From what i remember the person was pretty knowlegable on the subect ( or at least seemed to be.....)

Yeah, I followed up on that thread. There was a link to the relevant law. On the face of it, it's fairly straightforward. You can have lock picking equipment without breaking the law. AGS would have to prove intent to charge you. As the law reads, there is no mention of any particular equipment. You could be charged for carrying a brick or a pencil if AGS could prove you intended to use it to break into a premises or vehicle.

mawk

Mat the trasher wrote: »

Anyone able to point me to a pick set for opening the type of lock used in wheel clamps. Useful hobby no?;)

Cough cough boltcutters cough

Pat Mustard

Gosub wrote: »

Yeah, I followed up on that thread. There was a link to the relevant law. On the face of it, it's fairly straightforward. You can have lock picking equipment without breaking the law. AGS would have to prove intent to charge you. As the law reads, there is no mention of any particular equipment. You could be charged for carrying a brick or a pencil if AGS could prove you intended to use it to break into a premises or vehicle.

There are two basic offences under the relevant piece of legislation.

The first offence is possession of a particular article with intent to commit specified offences, such as burglary or theft.

The second offence is in relation to:
-possession of a particular article
-made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with
-the commission of specified offences (such as burglary or theft)

The difference with the second offence being that it is not necessary to show intent to commit the specified offences (burglary, theft, etc).

(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

I saw this thread some time back and I looked at the old thread on the Legal Discussion forum.

I threw up a new thread here, setting out the legislation (taking account of amendments) and asking for people's interpretations of one of the defences. Unfortunately, nobody replied.

Gosub

But surely that implies either intent or actual commission of a crime. Just having picks in your posession, in itself, can't automatically be construed as being involved in crime. My 'reasonable excuse' for having picks is: it's my hobby. Or even: I'm a locksmith.

I've never used my lock tools for criminal purposes., but they have been useful in helping people over the years. Everything from accidental home lock-outs to using my 'wigglers' to help people get into their cars. I even helped the Spanish police to gain entry to an apartment where a man had died. Saved them from breaking the door down.

A credit card can be used in the commission of a crime, but it isn't (yet) against the law to have one about your person.

Just to repeat what a previous poster said. Criminals don't pick locks, they put a boot through a door or smash a window.

Pat Mustard

Gosub wrote: »

But surely that implies either intent or actual commission of a crime.

What I am saying is that of the two offences in the legislation, the second offence does not require proof of intent to commit one of the specified crimes such as burglary or theft. The offence is as quoted in bold in my previous post, above.

Gosub wrote: »

Just having picks in your posession, in itself, can't automatically be construed as being involved in crime. My 'reasonable excuse' for having picks is: it's my hobby. Or even: I'm a locksmith.

If you have a reasonable excuse then no offence has been committed, by definition.

If you can show it's your hobby, then I imagine that you would likely argue that you have the lockpicks for a recreational purpose, and that this is a reasonable excuse. Being a member of lockpicking club would tend to support that argument. Lockpicking is a very unusual hobby, and I have no doubt that a judge would take some convincing. Stranger things have happened, I suppose.

If you are a locksmith returning from work, then I doubt you'd find a Garda who'd charge you in the first place, and even if he did, you would likely argue that you had a reasonable excuse, those lockpicks being required for your job.

You can rest assured that if some punter tells a judge that he is a locksmith but can't back up that assertion, it won't impress the judge.

Gosub

The Mustard wrote: »

What I am saying is that of the two offences in the legislation, the second offence does not require proof of intent to commit one of the specified crimes such as burglary or theft. The offence is as quoted above.




You can rest assured that if some punter tells a judge that he is a locksmith but can't back up that assertion, it won't impress the judge.

I see where you're coming from, but since no equipment is specified can a simple toothpick not be classed as 'going equipped'?

made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with
-the commission of specified offences (such as burglary or theft)

That, to me, implies that anything can be seen as made or adapted for use etc...

Since there is no certification or licencing, I can call myself a hobbyist locksmith. It's not a lie, neither is it an attempt to deceive anyone. If I wanted to set up a locksmith business tomorrow I could put away all my non-destructive entry tools and buy a battery drill. Then I'd be a locksmith.

I'm an old dude who is partially disabled. If I can be seen as a possible burglar then we'd better start building gas chambers, because surely the Nazis have taken over. I can barely get through a door with a key these days.:D

Pat Mustard

Gosub wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but since no equipment is specified can a simple toothpick not be classed as 'going equipped'?

I can't see the prosecution managing to swing that one, unless they can show that the toothpick is adapted for the commission of one the offences (see below):

See s.15 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001.

S.15 Possession of certain articles

(1) A person who is, when not at his or her place of residence, in possession of any article with the intention that it be used in the course of or in connection with—
(a) theft or burglary,
(aa) robbery,
(b) an offence under section 6 or 7,
(c) an offence under section 17 (blackmail, extortion, demanding money with menaces) of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994, or
(d) an offence under section 112 (taking a vehicle without lawful authority) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961,
is guilty of an offence.

(1A) A person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, is in possession of any article made or adapted for use in the course of, or in connection with, the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence.

(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that at the time of the alleged offence the article concerned was not in his or her possession for a purpose specified in that subsection.

(2A) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1A) to prove that the article concerned was not made or adapted for use in the course of or in connection with the commission of an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1).

(3) Where a person is convicted of an offence under this section, the court may order that any article for the possession of which he or she was so convicted shall be forfeited and either destroyed or disposed of in such manner as the court may determine.

(4) An order under subsection (3) shall not take effect until the ordinary time for instituting an appeal against the conviction or order concerned has expired or, where such an appeal is instituted, until it or any further appeal is finally decided or abandoned or the ordinary time for instituting any further appeal has expired.

(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.

Gosub wrote: »

That, to me, implies that anything can be seen as made or adapted for use etc...

I did not manage to nail down a definitive answer to that. Hence the thread in Legal Discussion. I was looking for caselaw to explain the law on it. I haven't found any yet. There must be loads of english caselaw on it somewhere, though.

Gosub wrote: »

Since there is no certification or licencing, I can call myself a hobbyist locksmith. It's not a lie, neither is it an attempt to deceive anyone. If I wanted to set up a locksmith business tomorrow I could put away all my non-destructive entry tools and buy a battery drill. Then I'd be a locksmith.

It's your hobby. You could argue that in court. Depending on all circumstances, it might be a winner. The hobby is the classic excuse given by guys who get done for possession of a knife: "I had it for fishing, Judge." It has worked many times in the past.

Gosub wrote: »

I'm an old dude who is partially disabled. If I can be seen as a possible burglar then we'd better start building gas chambers, because surely the Nazis have taken over. I can barely get through a door with a key these days.:D

You probably don't meet the profile of the usual people stopped by Gardai anyway.

Overall, I think the legislation may be a little OTT on this though.

Gosub

Y'see there's that word "intention" again. Does that not mean that intent has to be proven?

I know I'm unlikely to be pulled, searched and charged. It would be funny to see the reaction of a judge though. " Your Honour, he was attempting to break into the premises, but he had trouble getting out of his vehicle"

Interesting exchange of views.

Pat Mustard

Gosub wrote: »

Y'see there's that word "intention" again. Does that not mean that intent has to be proven?

Were you referring to S.15(1)?

I mentioned previously that there are two offences. The first offence is under S.15(1) which refers to intention, etc. The second offence is under S.15(1A), which does not refer to intention to commit those offences listed (a) to (d) etc.

Gosub

The Mustard wrote: »

Were you referring to S.15(1)?

I mentioned previously that there are two offences. The first offence is under S.15(1) which refers to intention, etc. The second offence under S.15(1A), which does not refer to intention.

Ah right. So a defence for this would be 2A? In that the article in question was made or adapted to be used in my hobby.

Pat Mustard

Gosub wrote: »

Ah right. So a defence for this would be 2A? In that the article in question was made or adapted to be used in my hobby.

In a hypothetical situation where one is charged under s.15(1A), you would first see if there was a reasonable excuse (or indeed lawful authority, if applicable).

Secondly, one would look to the defence under s15(2A), which is broken down as follows:
-to prove that the article concerned
-was not made or adapted for use in the course of or in connection with the commission of an offence
-being an offence referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (1).

I set up the thread that I mentioned earlier to discuss that defence.

My argument boiled down to this:

Simply put, I suppose the argument could be that lockpicks can serve to open locks, which of itself is not necessarily connected with some offence under paras. (a) to (d) of S.15(1).

But I cannot give a definitive answer on that at the moment. Maybe there is some caselaw somewhere, which could clarify that.

Gosub

I suppose I could prove it was my hobby. I have training locks (slotted at the pins) and other practice pieces, also a lot of printed material relating to locksport. Maybe if I couldn't prove it was my hobby, it would be less of a defence.

Lock picking, as a hobby, is a bit of a solitary affair for loners like me. Clubs are not necessary to enjoy the sport. There is a competition element to the sport (I kid you not) and this is where a locksport club would come in.

Pat Mustard

Gosub wrote: »

I suppose I could prove it was my hobby. I have training locks (slotted at the pins) and other practice pieces, also a lot of printed material relating to locksport. Maybe if I couldn't prove it was my hobby, it would be less of a defence.

Lock picking, as a hobby, is a bit of a solitary affair for loners like me. Clubs are not necessary to enjoy the sport. There is a competition element to the sport (I kid you not) and this is where a locksport club would come in.

It sounds like you have a lot that tends to show that lockpicking is your hobby, alright.

Hopefully, you will never have to rely on legal argument in relation to this.

Squeaky the Squirrel

helen12

Although a lot of videos available on YouTube but You can get an idea from here .how to lockpick.