What's a cheap way to record music from a sounddesk at a gig?

the_syco

Hey all,
In the past I've recorded a gig, but the volume would be well above the peak of the camcorders mic (and thus the video would be just bad noise), so I'm wondering what equipment would be recommended to record from the sound desk? Upstairs in Fibbers (Parnell St, Dublin) would be the most often venue.

Hoping to get something below the €100 mark that I could plug into a laptop, that would have ports that plug into a standard sound desk that would be able to take in the sound, so I could mux it later into a video of the gig to produce clearer sound.

I have in the past asked JC to output a lower volume, but it still peaked above what the camera could handle, so would be looking for something that could handle high peaks of sound, if that's at all possible?

Any ideas?

DamagedTrax

€5 - thats all you need. go from the desk 'rec out' or 'tape out' into your laptop and set your input levels in whatever recording software that you use.

wonski

DamagedTrax wrote: »

€5 - thats all you need. go from the desk 'rec out' or 'tape out' into your laptop and set your input levels in whatever recording software that you use.

Surprised that whoever was working on the sound didn't suggest this "solution" to OP.
The only disadvantage of this is when one or more instrument/tracks are not going through the pa, eg small gigs where guitar amp isn't mic'd up.

the_syco

DamagedTrax wrote: »

€5 - thats all you need. go from the desk 'rec out' or 'tape out' into your laptop and set your input levels in whatever recording software that you use.

I tried this into the digital camcorder (it had an external mic input), and the peaks were too high. Same when I tried recording it into a laptop. The sound is by default loud for the venue, so when it went into the digital camcorder or the laptop, the sound would be too loud, and would just be noise. As it was hitting all the peaks, if I reduced it with software at a later stage, I'd still just have a (lower) bar of noise.

wonski wrote: »

Surprised that whoever was working on the sound didn't suggest this "solution" to OP.
The only disadvantage of this is when one or more instrument/tracks are not going through the pa, eg small gigs where guitar amp isn't mic'd up.

JC has a good setup, and all instruments come through the desk before it's fed to the speakers.

wonski

No matter how loud the venue is, you should be able to record it through tape out.
It is either desk that is the problem, or maybe faulty cable.
You have to make sure you to reduce input levels before recording, not after in DAW.

gctest50

1) MONO / STEREO output switch
2) GROUND switch for noise free operation
3) LINE / MIC input switches
4) Ultra-slick trim controls !
5) Auxiliary mini-jack input is ideal for wireless mics
6) Two balanced XLR inputs
7) Output mini-jack to camcorder
8) Retractable azimuth pin
9) Camcorder mounting bolt
10) Study die cast aluminum chassis
11) Premium shielded balancing transformers
12) Tripod socket

good few $$ more but made for the job?

dunno if it'd be any good , ask someone who knows

http://www.markertek.co.uk/Home/BeachTek-DXA-2T-Dual-XLR-Compact-Adapter

the_syco

wonski wrote: »

You have to make sure you to reduce input levels before recording, not after in DAW.

Aye. Even with output levels (from the desk) at the lowest, the trim was too high for my camcorder. I'll see if I can borrow a newer laptop that may have a better sound card, with maybe a external sound box of some type to reduce the level of sound.

gctest50 wrote: »

1) MONO / STEREO output switch
2) GROUND switch for noise free operation
3) LINE / MIC input switches
4) Ultra-slick trim controls !
5) Auxiliary mini-jack input is ideal for wireless mics
6) Two balanced XLR inputs
7) Output mini-jack to camcorder
8) Retractable azimuth pin
9) Camcorder mounting bolt
10) Study die cast aluminum chassis
11) Premium shielded balancing transformers
12) Tripod socket

good few $$ more but made for the job?

dunno if it'd be any good , ask someone who knows

http://www.markertek.co.uk/Home/BeachTek-DXA-2T-Dual-XLR-Compact-Adapter

May work, as it has trim controllers, but at €200 for something that I'd only be using rarely is a bit too much. In saying that, I'll see if I can use the terminology to get something cheaper.

I think my problem is that the peaks trim is too high, and needs to be lowered to something to something that I can record. One of the people I know had an external USB sound card that cost them around the €250 mark, but they could justify it as they were entering the sound business as a career rather than as part of a hobby, as my case is, more or less.

Thanks for the comments.

wonski

Does the desk have line out output you could use?
I would try other outputs before spending money on sound cards/usb interfaces.
If the levels are not acceptable, there is something wrong with the setup.
BTW RCA output on the desk has to be line level, so it should work with line in input on pc/camcorder. There may be difference in level signal, as the desk may operate on pro level, and camcorder/pc on consumer level, but you have to be able to match them. If not, we are missing something, and i don't know what it could be.

old gregg

DamagedTrax wrote: »

€5 - thats all you need. go from the desk 'rec out' or 'tape out' into your laptop and set your input levels in whatever recording software that you use.

I use this as an option for some gigs I record for a promoter to pass on to bands. I'll either go directly into a lappy or an external recorder depending on the night. I'll always assume that it's the responsibility of the person mixing to make sure I have a quality feed and am happy to ask them to mic everything to make sure that happens if needs be. Obviously I'll be there for early sound checks to do this so as not to piss them off

godfrey

To record from any sound desk, you MUST plug into a 'line' input, not a mic input, regardless of whether it's a camcorder or your laptop or an external audio device. It also bears no relationship to how loud the PA is.

g

wonski

godfrey wrote: »

To record from any sound desk, you MUST plug into a 'line' input, not a mic input, regardless of whether it's a camcorder or your laptop or an external audio device. It also bears no relationship to how loud the PA is.

g

I think everyone who posted on this thread knows this...The poster above mentioned mics in relation to having the whole show going through the desk.

TroutMask

The most economical way to get a satisfactory live recording is to use a 4-channel recorder, e.g., a Zoom H4n. The Zoom's onboard mics will record the room sound and the 2 line inputs can be fed from the console line outs. There are comprehensive level adjustments on the Zoom so that different console out connector types can be accessed with ease. Bring a selection of connectors and long cables so that you don't get in the house engineer's 'mix'. Bring closed-back headphones so that you can monitor the tracks. Bring a mic stand to mount and aim the Zoom unit. You can then import these 4 tracks into your video editor and line them up using the audio from the camera. This is the inexpensive way to get a convincing 'live sound' - the expensive way involves a splitter at the stage and a mobile recording rig

wonski

TroutMask wrote: »

The most economical way to get a satisfactory live recording is to use a 4-channel recorder, e.g., a Zoom H4n. The Zoom's onboard mics will record the room sound and the 2 line inputs can be fed from the console line outs. There are comprehensive level adjustments on the Zoom so that different console out connector types can be accessed with ease. Bring a selection of connectors and long cables so that you don't get in the house engineer's 'mix'. Bring closed-back headphones so that you can monitor the tracks. Bring a mic stand to mount and aim the Zoom unit. You can then import these 4 tracks into your video editor and line them up using the audio from the camera. This is the inexpensive way to get a convincing 'live sound' - the expensive way involves a splitter at the stage and a mobile recording rig

Zoom recorders are great, i am considering one for my band since we play small gigs and don't feed all instruments through the mixer, but i am puzzled why op can't get right signal levels from the desk.
Is there any chance that instead of tape out they used some monitor output (amplified)? What would happen if you tried to record from headphone output, what is the dB level on this one?

TroutMask

The headphone out is sometimes used for recording, but the impedance is incorrect and headphone outs are often quite hot (higher than line level). Besides the FOH engineer needs the headphone out for monitoring Pre Fader Levels when s/he solos the channels. Basically live 'house' engineers are usually really busy, so unless you've hired them yourself or it's a pre-arranged broadcast gig, then you take what you get. A common strategy is to download the manual for the venue's console so that you know what to expect when you arrive.
A typical kit for linking to a live console would include a selection of adapters and cables - and a set of high-quality isolation transformers can come in handy too for eliminating ground loops.

if6was9

Alternatively you can ask him if he has an Aux spare and get him to do a quick mono mix with this. I do this when I'm doing a small gig and get asked to record out of the desk, otherwise it's tons of vocal and bass drum and the guitars and rest of the kit is quite buried. Don't mind that it's mono, I'd much prefer to have a good sounding, well balanced mono mix than a crappy sounding stereo mix, though some people I've done this for insisted I give them stereo.

If it's clipping like mad even on the lowest settings you're probably going into a mic input instead of a line input, without knowing your laptop and sound card it may be a setting you've to change in the sound devices software. I've definitely seen this before on some in-built sound cards.

Alternatively you could just buy a really cheap interface and get much better quality recording than the in built sound card allows.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/focusrite_scarlett_2i2.htm
Something like this would be very handy for something like you describe and will be much easier to set levels and monitor on.

off.the.walls

I remember taking a peak in at the sound desk in fibbers once and the levels were looking rather high on the desk. Hitting high into orange anyway. May have just been that gig though, they were a metal band.

TroutMask

different consoles like to be run with different gain structures. Some desks sound really nice if you're hitting the summing amplifiers in the subgroups and outputs hard.
+ it depends how the metering is set up, i.e., how it is calibrated.

godfrey

wonski wrote: »

I think everyone who posted on this thread knows this...The poster above mentioned mics in relation to having the whole show going through the desk.

No, not everyone knows this, which is clear from comments like "even with the volume turned down really low it's distorting"...

g

unclebill98

Just asking.....

Would anyone recommend a recording device to run into? Looking for something cheap etc. Zen do a 4-8gb Mp3 player that can record "Voice Memos", not sure its the right tool and its early in the morning! Want to record tonights show and am limited to buying in Ireland, maybe somewhere like Argos.

I do have an iphone etc but acc for that tend not to be freely available in Cavan.

old gregg

If you're stuck and have a laptop then you could go straight in that from the desk via the mic/line in using something like Audacity. It's a little more work but would save you the stress of buying a recorder under pressure.

unclebill98

No laptop but thanks for the replie.

TroutMask

unclebill98 wrote: »

Just asking.....

Would anyone recommend a recording device to run into? Looking for something cheap etc. Zen do a 4-8gb Mp3 player that can record "Voice Memos", not sure its the right tool and its early in the morning! Want to record tonights show and am limited to buying in Ireland, maybe somewhere like Argos.

I do have an iphone etc but acc for that tend not to be freely available in Cavan.

Don't know about the Zen. You''ll need something capable of dealing with a wide range of signal levels, that's why I recommended the Zoom.

unclebill98

Zen doesn't work, no line in.

Don't need mic rooms as stated on the zoom unit. Something like a good aul minidisc player, small and just simple to use.

I've full control over what's being sent to the unit, so no fear of peaking it out etc. it's for personal use afterwards.

iPhones and iPod's etc can do it but not spending money on the extra ap and acc to get it to work.

TroutMask

Desk mixes in small clubs are usually skewed due to the spill from the stage sound. Typically the vocals are too hot and the guitars are too low. It is a feat to get a satisfactory mix from the desk in such places.

unclebill98

That is very true, it's for personal use afterwards to just listen back. I would never say to anyone that a simple stereo mix from a desk, regardless of source/venue would be any use for professional use.

Found my old minidisc player........ Wondering can I find blank mini disc, might be in a bargin bin with blank VHS cassettes!

TroutMask

Ah no - albums have been made 'off the board'. It's just rare that the levels are right, that's all. For minidisc stock you could try eBay - there must be millions of them floating around. ATRAC compression, was it? Apparently they still make blank MDs (probably for Japan - they were very popular there)