Another Shooting "Trap" in America.

Storm 10

FFS..

http://news.sky.com/story/1029721/firefighters-shot-dead-in-house-blaze-trap

The man who ambushed four firefighters, killing two of them, spent 17 years in jail for beating his grandmother to death.

Two volunteer firefighters have been shot dead and two others injured when a gunman opened fire as they were responding to a house fire in New York state, police said.

The gunman, named as William Spengler, opened fired on the four men as they arrived shortly after 5:30am to put out the blaze in Webster, said police chief Gerald Pickering.

Police said Spengler set fire to a car and house to lure the firefighters to his house on the shore of Lake Ontario.

"It does appear it was a trap," an emotional Mr Pickering said at a news conference.

Spengler, 62, had served more than 17 years in prison for beating his 92-year-old grandmother to death with a hammer in 1980 at the house next to where Monday's attack happened.

Police said Spengler died at the scene after shooting himself in the head.

One of the firefighters who died, Mike Chiapperini, was also a town police lieutenant, but it was not clear whether he returned fire.

The other firefighter who was killed was named as Tomasz Kaczowka.

The two wounded firefighters, named as Joseph Hofsetter and Theodore Scardino, remained in a critical condition in hospital.

Police were concerned that Spengler's sister, Cheryl Spengler was in the house where the fire started, reports said.

Spengler reportedly lived there with his sister and mother, Arline Spengler, who died in October.

An off-duty police officer who was driving past the scene also has injuries from shrapnel, Mr Pickering said.

The fire spread and destroyed six other homes in the quiet lakeside town, around 340 miles (550 km) northwest of New York City.

The gunfire initially kept firefighters from battling the blaze.

The neighbourhood's residents were evacuated and searched by police, and a SWAT team was called to the scene.

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said the shooting was "a senseless act of violence" and offered his condolences to the victims' families.

"New York's first responders are true heroes as they time and again selflessly rush toward danger in order to keep our families and communities safe," he said.

Monroe county sheriff Patrick O'Flynn said: "It's sad to see that that this is becoming more commonplace in communities across the nation."

Police records indicate Spengler was originally charged with second-degree murder in connection with grandmother Rose Spengler's death, but He pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of manslaughter.

The shooting in Webster comes 10 days after the shooting rampage at a school in Newtown, Connecticut, in which 20 children and six adults were killed.

The Newtown massacre has revived debate in the United States on the country's gun laws, which are far more lax than in most other developed nations.

Mr. Rager

Cúnt

funnights74

Shocking stuff, how this guy was released after the extremely violent nature of his first crime should have a lot of people asking questions.

Dartz

Shooting in America

In other news, rain is wet.

Biggins

funnights74 wrote: »

Shocking stuff, how this guy was released after the extremely violent nature of his first crime should have a lot of people asking questions.

How he was released and then got his hands on an automatic weapon is another question that will have to be looked into too!

Sadly as its America and the masses of weapons there, it wouldn't be too hard for a criminal such as him to get one it seems.

El Guapo!

Awful thing to happen. RIP

But, cue the America bashers diving into this thread.
People get shot everyday in different countries and people go on rampages too but nobody bashes those countries.
In fact, I'm pretty sure if people mocked other races as much as they do Americans, they'd be banned from AH. Seems to be ok as long as its America though.

Biggins

Dean09 wrote: »

Awful thing to happen. RIP

But, cue the America bashers diving into this thread.
People get shot everyday in different countries and people go on rampages too but nobody bashes those countries.
In fact, I'm pretty sure if people mocked other races as much as they do Americans, they'd be banned from AH. Seems to be ok as long as its America though.

You have a point but if any other country that has had now 62 mass killings since 1982, they too would get told off and knocked a bit for allowing the situation to get that far so sadly easily.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2

Korvanica

MERICA !!!!

Kat1170

Biggins wrote: »

How he was released and then got his hands on an automatic weapon is another question that will have to be looked into too!

Sadly as its America and the masses of weapons there, it wouldn't be too hard for a criminal such as him to get one it seems.

Think you'll find criminals everywhere don't have too much bother on that score.

UrbanSea

Kat1170 wrote: »

Think you'll find criminals everywhere don't have too much bother on that score.

And how many of those spree killers would be described as criminals before they do the act?

Most are mentally unstable people who have easy access to guns.

im invisible

Spengler eh?




Dr. Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Dr. Peter Venkman: What?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why?
Dr. Egon Spengler: It would be bad.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad"?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

GreeBo

Clearly if the firemen were armed this wouldnt have happened....goddamit the NRA were right!

Biggins

Kat1170 wrote: »

Think you'll find criminals everywhere don't have too much bother on that score.

True.

GalwayGuy2

But, cue the America bashers diving into this thread.
People get shot everyday in different countries and people go on rampages too but nobody bashes those countries.
In fact, I'm pretty sure if people mocked other races as much as they do Americans, they'd be banned from AH. Seems to be ok as long as its America though.

You see a lot of hate filled vitriol on Facebook lately. Such as an image with this caption: Which country was built on the enslavement of one race (with a picture of a black man) and a genocide of another (picture of an old Indian women).
The answer if pretty much most powers under the sun:rolleyes: We might as well blame the Scandinavians for the vikings.
Or just pop over to the conspiracy theory forum.

In my opinion criminals who fire on ambulance or firefighters are absolute scum.

notnumber

The United States of Arms...

theoneeyedman

GreeBo wrote: »

Clearly if the firemen were armed this wouldnt have happened....goddamit the NRA were right!

Beat me to it.....they should all be accompanied by armed guards I reckon!! It'd make getting cats out of trees a lot easier anyway !

Capt'n Midnight

Any bets on how long it will be before a copycat incident brought on by media overexposure ?

garv123

Biggins wrote: »

How he was released and then got his hands on an automatic weapon is another question that will have to be looked into too!

Sadly as its America and the masses of weapons there, it wouldn't be too hard for a criminal such as him to get one it seems.

What weapon did he use? Didnt see it mentioned in the article.

Herb Powell

Dean09 wrote: »

Awful thing to happen. RIP

But, cue the America bashers diving into this thread.
People get shot everyday in different countries and people go on rampages too but nobody bashes those countries.
In fact, I'm pretty sure if people mocked other races as much as they do Americans, they'd be banned from AH. Seems to be ok as long as its America though.

No. Is there any first world nation where this happens so regularly?

Sorry, but something is fuccked up over there, and it's ok to say it. I have no vendetta against America, but problems should be called out as they are seen.

Killer Wench

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Beat me to it.....they should all be accompanied by armed guards I reckon!! It'd make getting cats out of trees a lot easier anyway !

Usually, included amongst the first to respond is a patrol car near the scene of the incident. They are usually there to control onlookers who get too close to the action, so it raises questions as to where the po-po were when this happened.

Killer Wench

Third largest population in the world: 340 million people

Third or Fourth largest country by land mass

300 million guns in circulation YET we are not talking about 300 million or 30 million or 3 million or 300K or 30K deaths related to guns. More people die in drunk driving alcohol accidents than gun related deaths in the US.

Gun laws need to change, but for FFS, to say that it is a cultural phenomenon is ridiculous!

LiffeyValleyB

GreeBo wrote: »

Clearly if the firemen were armed this wouldnt have happened....goddamit the NRA were right!

The house clearly should have been armed too, "Wanna set fire to me? Let's see what Mr Glock has to say about that!"

czx

Herb Powell wrote: »

No. Is there any first world nation where this happens so regularly?

Of comparable size, no.

Pottler

Biggins wrote: »

How he was released and then got his hands on an automatic weapon is another question that will have to be looked into too!

Sadly as its America and the masses of weapons there, it wouldn't be too hard for a criminal such as him to get one it seems.

Indeed Biggins. But then, as you well know, if one wants a legally held automatic pistol in Ireland, one will jump through an awful lot of hoops and probably get turned down. If one just wants an automatic pistol, one just gives €500 to Dave down the pub and one gets one straight away. I'd imagine then, that in America, it is not too hard to get hold of a gun, legal or no.

Herb Powell

Killer Wench wrote: »

Third largest population in the world: 340 million people

Third or Fourth largest country by land mass

300 million guns in circulation YET we are not talking about 300 million or 30 million or 3 million or 300K or 30K deaths related to guns. More people die in drunk driving alcohol accidents than gun related deaths in the US.

Gun laws need to change, but for FFS, to say that it is a cultural phenomenon is ridiculous!

But it does not happen anywhere near as often anywhere else.

GreeBo

LiffeyValleyB wrote: »

The house clearly should have been armed too, "Wanna set fire to me? Let's see what Mr Glock has to say about that!"

Should have been armed with a flame thrower....delicious ironing.

garv123

Pottler wrote: »

Indeed Biggins. But then, as you well know, if one wants a legally held automatic pistol in Ireland, one will jump through an awful lot of hoops and probably get turned down. If one just wants an automatic pistol, one just gives €500 to Dave down the pub and one gets one straight away. I'd imagine then, that in America, it is not too hard to get hold of a gun, legal or no.

Oh if blay reads this post he will be banging his head off the wall.

You cannot own automatic weapons in Ireland no matter what it is.

Automatic weapons are also not easy to get a hold of legally in america either.

Pottler

garv123 wrote: »

Oh if blay reads this post he will be banging his head off the wall.

You cannot own automatic weapons in Ireland no matter what it is.

Automatic weapons are also not easy to get a hold of legally in america either.

If I wanted to, which I don't, emphatically, I don't, I can have one delivered pretty much faster than a Take-away. You can indeed own one in Ireland. Wether it's legal or not, that's the difference. I doubt if the legality of it's ownership would make the bang any less loud or lethal. I know what you're saying, I should have said semi-automatic, but let's not get caught up in semantics and a small metal protrusion into the rear action parts.

El Guapo!

There are issues in the US with gun crime. That's undeniable.
But as soon as something like this happens in the states, everyone jumps on it and is screaming about "crazy Americans" and rolling their eyes. But if the same thing happens elsewhere, it gets a little bit of attention and is then quickly forgotten about.

According to Wiki, the USA has a gun-related death-rate (including suicides and accidents) of 10.2 per 100,000.
Ireland is 1.03 per 100,000.

Now, when you compare our populations, that's also pretty shameful on our behalf.
Granted, we don't have people shooting up schools and such, but I think we should look close to home and solve our own problems before pointing the finger and taking the moral high ground.

dandynamo

Dean09 wrote: »

There are issues in the US with gun crime. That's undeniable.
But as soon as something like this happens in the states, everyone jumps on it and is screaming about "crazy Americans" and rolling their eyes. But if the same thing happens elsewhere, it gets a little bit of attention and is then quickly forgotten about.

According to Wiki, the USA has a gun-related death-rate (including suicides and accidents) of 10.2 per 100,000.
Ireland is 1.03 per 100,000.

Now, when you compare our populations, that's also pretty shameful on our behalf.
Granted, we don't have people shooting up schools and such, but I think we should look close to home and solve our own problems before pointing the finger and taking the moral high ground.

Yeah but Irelands rate is less according to your sources. So America obviously has a mcuh greater problme

notnumber

Dean09 wrote: »

There are issues in the US with gun crime. That's undeniable.
But as soon as something like this happens in the states, everyone jumps on it and is screaming about "crazy Americans" and rolling their eyes. But if the same thing happens elsewhere, it gets a little bit of attention and is then quickly forgotten about.

According to Wiki, the USA has a gun-related death-rate (including suicides and accidents) of 10.2 per 100,000.
Ireland is 1.03 per 100,000.

Now, when you compare our populations, that's also pretty shameful on our behalf.
Granted, we don't have people shooting up schools and such, but I think we should look close to home and solve our own problems before pointing the finger and taking the moral high ground.

Maybe Im pissed but..

10.2 per 100,000.
Ireland is 1.03 per 100,000.

Thats ten times more!

El Guapo!

dandynamo wrote: »

Yeah but Irelands rate is less according to your sources. So America obviously has a mcuh greater problme

Yeah but who are we to shake our heads and tut when we also have our own gun crime problem.

dandynamo

Dean09 wrote: »

Yeah but who are we to shake our heads and tut when we also have our own gun crime problem.

A problem which is ten times greater in America. If you compared Irelands rate to ther countries I would confident it be would be lower than the average.

El Guapo!

notnumber wrote: »

Maybe Im pissed but..

10.2 per 100,000.
Ireland is 1.03 per 100,000.

Thats ten times more!

Number 1: Yes you're pissed. But it's Christmas so that's allowed.

Number 2: I wasn't saying we have a bigger problem. I was saying we also have a problem on our own doorstep so we can't really look down on America for their problems.

Killer Wench

Herb Powell wrote: »

But it does not happen anywhere near as often anywhere else.

Really?

Murders with firearms (most recent) by country

#1 South Africa: 31,918 Total Population: 50,586,757
#2 Colombia: 21,898 Total Population: 46,366,364
#3 Thailand: 20,032 Total Population: 66,720,153
#4 United States: 9,369 Total Population: 314,993,000
#5 Philippines: 7,708 Total Population: 94,852,030

Herb Powell

Dean09 wrote: »

Yeah but who are we to shake our heads and tut when we also have our own gun crime problem.

Oh come on. There is no comparison.

When was our last mass shooting?

El Guapo!

dandynamo wrote: »

A problem which is ten times greater in America. If you compared Irelands rate to ther countries I would confident it be would be lower than the average.

From the chart I saw, we rank higher (worse) than Spain, Netherlands, UK, India, Ukraine, Poland........
and a lot more too.

Pottler

Dean09 wrote: »

Number 1: Yes you're pissed. But it's Christmas so that's allowed.

Number 2: I wasn't saying we have a bigger problem. I was saying we also have a problem on our own doorstep so we can't really look down on America for their problems.

Oh yes we can. This could well be the panto thread.:)

Herb Powell

Killer Wench wrote: »

Really?

Murders with firearms (most recent) by country

#1 South Africa: 31,918 Total Population: 50,586,757
#2 Colombia: 21,898 Total Population: 46,366,364
#3 Thailand: 20,032 Total Population: 66,720,153
#4 United States: 9,369 Total Population: 314,993,000
#5 Philippines: 7,708 Total Population: 94,852,030

Oh of course. I was referring specifically to the phenomenon of mass shootings in First World Nations, however.

El Guapo!

Herb Powell wrote: »

Oh come on. There is no comparison.

When was our last mass shooting?

If you read my posts you'll notice I acknowledged the point that we don't have mass murders here.

Killer Wench

Dean09 wrote: »

From the chart I saw, we rank higher (worse) than Spain, Netherlands, UK, India, Ukraine, Poland........
and a lot more too.

#41 Ireland: 12 Total Population: 4,487,000

dandynamo

Dean09 wrote: »

From the chart I saw, we rank higher (worse) than Spain, Netherlands, UK, India, Ukraine, Poland........
and a lot more too.

Ireland has a much lower population than those countries. There is a much worse problem in America.

Pottler

I think the best outcome we can expect from this doomed thread is that now a few more people know that the Philippines has 94 million people. Who knew? I thought it was tiny..

El Guapo!

Pottler wrote: »

I think the best outcome we can expect from this doomed thread is that now a few more people know that the Philippines has 94 million people. Who knew? I thought it was tiny..

Everyday's a school day!

Anyway in too tired for this thread at the minute.
It's christmas......I'm off to sleep.
Happy Christmas folks.

Herb Powell

Dean09 wrote: »

If you read my posts you'll notice I acknowledged the point that we don't have mass murders here.

Yeah I see.

We have a problem, but the vast majority of our shootings seem to be gang related. In the USA, they have much worse gang problems AND the problem of these mass shootings. I just don't think we are anywhere close to the US, and pretending like we are comes off as very........IDK, contrarian?

Biggins

Dean09 wrote: »

There are issues in the US with gun crime. That's undeniable.
But as soon as something like this happens in the states, everyone jumps on it and is screaming about "crazy Americans" and rolling their eyes. But if the same thing happens elsewhere, it gets a little bit of attention and is then quickly forgotten about.

According to Wiki, the USA has a gun-related death-rate (including suicides and accidents) of 10.2 per 100,000.
Ireland is 1.03 per 100,000.

Now, when you compare our populations, that's also pretty shameful on our behalf.
Granted, we don't have people shooting up schools and such, but I think we should look close to home and solve our own problems before pointing the finger and taking the moral high ground.

We are trying to solve our own problems (just as America is).
America (and others) for simple example, bring up regular about us and how outdated our laws/outlook is regarding abortion to begin with. They look at our out-datedness, our 20+years of knuckle-dragging out the issue, procrastinating.
We in turn opinionate about their craziness over their inability to get their equal heads about weapons.

It NOT an attack on the America for a lot of us, just BECAUSE its America.
We have equally thoughts about other countries which have individual problems - and they too often crop up regular in AH as well as elsewhere.

Personally, I sick and tired of people getting on their high-horse and saying a lot are out just to bash America - we NOT JUST selecting America for the sake of trying to get a dig in at them over every issue - in this case its ONE issue and thats guns.

One issue - does not make a case that everyone is out to bash the states over everything!

P.S.
The gun numbers you quoted are slightly off - I suggest you read this post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82352185&postcount=109

From October 2012 research John-Hopkins report:

Gun violence in the United States is unusually high for a nation of such wealth. Although there is little difference in the overall crime rates between the United States and other high-income countries. the homicide rate in the U.S. is seven times higher than the combined homicide rate of 22 other high-income countries. This is because the firearm homicide rate in the U.S. is twenty times greater than in these other high-income countries.

We don't have the moral (any) ground in a lot of things and rightly too, we should be equally hauled over the coals for our errors, misjudgements by other people of other countries.
In the long run, by also highlighting our issues and maybe adding pressure - we get off our asses eventually and get things done too.

Manic Moran

funnights74 wrote: »

Shocking stuff, how this guy was released after the extremely violent nature of his first crime should have a lot of people asking questions.

Won't matter to people who want to point at the US and go 'evil guns/stupid laws'. Or the fact that it would appear he wasn't legally authorised to posess firearms in the first place, as an ex-convict.

Nor will the fact that people shooting at firefighters has been known to happen in the UK as well, although in this case, it was an outright effective lethal ambush.