Build or buy.... which is best for my first Rally car?

barney 20v

So.... I want to finally begin competing in stage rallying in 2013 but can't decide which is better, to build a starter car and to race for
2-3 yrs or to buy a used ready to go package?

I have a budget of 4-5k for a car so I'm looking at 106 gti/corolla gti or MG ZR ,maybe a 205 or civic
I would be happy to keep to group n spec.

Their are many ready to go car's in my price range but many are dog rough and require new safety equipment etc.
I had planned all along to go that route but building my own to my spec with all new equipment is just as cost
Efficient.
I am not new to this sport and am fully aware of the costs involved but it is my life long ambition to rally...
I plan on doing 3-4 events a yr so nothing major...
Anyone got any advice?

darragh o meara

As someone who's done both buying a fully prepped car is the only way to go. You'll save a fortune.

For 4-5 k you'll pick up some nice cars as the value has dropped a lot since the good times. Good starter rally cars would be the likes of Peugeot 106 cup cars ( make sure they have the cup gearbox and shafts, civics are good cars too but in your class you'll be up against big money machinery. The 205 gti is plentyful too and cheap to run. Another good starter car which is great fun is the Ford Ka, but again get a ex challenge car with all the proper bits. I had one starting out and I'm looking for another one as they can be setup for gravel very easily with no extra parts needed, plus they have proflex shocks all round ( the ultimate rally shocks ) and a limo in the gearbox. Good ones put out 105 bhp and are a hoot to drive.

barney 20v

darragh o meara wrote: »

As someone who's done both buying a fully prepped car is the only way to go. You'll save a fortune.

For 4-5 k you'll pick up some nice cars as the value has dropped a lot since the good times. Good starter rally cars would be the likes of Peugeot 106 cup cars ( make sure they have the cup gearbox and shafts, civics are good cars too but in your class you'll be up against big money machinery. The 205 gti is plentyful too and cheap to run. Another good starter car which is great fun is the Ford Ka, but again get a ex challenge car with all the proper bits. I had one starting out and I'm looking for another one as they can be setup for gravel very easily with no extra parts needed, plus they have proflex shocks all round ( the ultimate rally shocks ) and a limo in the gearbox. Good ones put out 105 bhp and are a hoot to drive.

The 106 cup cars are upwards of 8k so they are a no go... Most civics are 6k + so they are ruled out also..
I would ideally like a 106 gti but I have considered a ka.
The ka's can be bought cheap but then they are terrible looking tbh.
I know they handle well but they really are on the bottom of my list.
205s are getting rare and parts are scarce to.
I have considered a swift but they seem expensive to buy and again hard to get parts..
I am thinking of buying a road going 106 and building my own.
106 gti can be got for sub 1500 euro now,how much more to turn into a stage car with basic MSI equipment?

darragh o meara

barney 20v wrote: »

I am thinking of buying a road going 106 and building my own.
106 gti can be got for sub 1500 euro now,how much more to turn into a stage car with basic MSI equipment?

Ok. Off the top of my head. All approx prices.

Rollcage : welded in type € 600
Rollcage fitting : €700-900 depending on who does it. There's a lot of work involved here hence price.
Rollcage padding :€80
Plumbed in fire extinguisher : €250
2 hand held extinguishers : €150
Sump gaurd : €200
Kill switches and pulls : €100
Seats : €400 each
Seat fitting kits : €40 each
Belts : €170 each
Seatbelt cutters : €50
Window film : €80
Bonnet clips and boot springs : € 60
Steering wheel and boss €300



This is just the parts I can think of, this will give you a very basic rallycar. You have to then factor in the costs for :

Stripping the car down to a shell for cage fitting.

Rebuilding the car and replacing any parts that need replacing and on a car that age you will find plenty of small expensive parts that need replacing.

Painting interior.

Sorting out electrics and fitting kill switches.

This is the kinda work that takes time and you won't get it all done in a few weeks unless you send it to someone who can devote 12 hours a day to it for at least two-three weeks.

After this you end up with something basic and I mean very basic, the shocks and brakes won't be up to much abuse so this will be a necessary upgrade when you finish your first stage!! Add in at least €1000 for decent shocks and a upgraded brake setup from a 306 gti ( brembos will cost about €1000 on their own ) then you'll need braided brake lines add €200.

The drive shafts on the 106 aren't great and you'll need to upgrade them too, some say diesel shafts from another pug will do others will only use the pug sport cup shafts add €1000 approx

So after them upgrades you'll have a reasonable rallycar but it won't be competitive.

To make it competitive with the cup cars you'll need:

Ecu upgrade
Engine upgrades
etc

See where I'm going with this?? Even if you buy all the parts your still gonna have to pay someone a few grand to fit them all. Buying a cup car and I have seen one or two for sale around the 5k mark recently and remember just because a car is for sale for 8k doesn't mean it's gonna make it, there's still a few dreamers out there and rallycars aren't that easy sell at the moment.

Buying a fully prepped one will save you a fortune plus you'll get spares, wheels, tyres , and other bits n bobs you'll need.

I can give you a number of someone I know who may be able to help you out looking for a 106gti. Pm me if you want it.

barney 20v

darragh o meara wrote: »

Ok. Off the top of my head. All approx prices.

Rollcage : welded in type € 600
Rollcage fitting : €700-900 depending on who does it. There's a lot of work involved here hence price.
Rollcage padding :€80
Plumbed in fire extinguisher : €250
2 hand held extinguishers : €150
Sump gaurd : €200
Kill switches and pulls : €100
Seats : €400 each
Seat fitting kits : €40 each
Belts : €170 each
Seatbelt cutters : €50
Window film : €80
Bonnet clips and boot springs : € 60
Steering wheel and boss €300



This is just the parts I can think of, this will give you a very basic rallycar. You have to then factor in the costs for :

Stripping the car down to a shell for cage fitting.

Rebuilding the car and replacing any parts that need replacing and on a car that age you will find plenty of small expensive parts that need replacing.

Painting interior.

Sorting out electrics and fitting kill switches.

This is the kinda work that takes time and you won't get it all done in a few weeks unless you send it to someone who can devote 12 hours a day to it for at least two-three weeks.

After this you end up with something basic and I mean very basic, the shocks and brakes won't be up to much abuse so this will be a necessary upgrade when you finish your first stage!! Add in at least €1000 for decent shocks and a upgraded brake setup from a 306 gti ( brembos will cost about €1000 on their own ) then you'll need braided brake lines add €200.

The drive shafts on the 106 aren't great and you'll need to upgrade them too, some say diesel shafts from another pug will do others will only use the pug sport cup shafts add €1000 approx

So after them upgrades you'll have a reasonable rallycar but it won't be competitive.

To make it competitive with the cup cars you'll need:

Ecu upgrade
Engine upgrades
etc

See where I'm going with this?? Even if you buy all the parts your still gonna have to pay someone a few grand to fit them all. Buying a cup car and I have seen one or two for sale around the 5k mark recently and remember just because a car is for sale for 8k doesn't mean it's gonna make it, there's still a few dreamers out there and rallycars aren't that easy sell at the moment.

Buying a fully prepped one will save you a fortune plus you'll get spares, wheels, tyres , and other bits n bobs you'll need.

I can give you a number of someone I know who may be able to help you out looking for a 106gti. Pm me if you want it.

I get what your saying , In relation to getting a cup car for around 5k I find it highly unlikely tbh,no matter how desperate a fella might be to sell.
I am not looking to compete against top cars or crews, I'm just looking to gain experience and get finishes.
Most small FWD cars available have bolt in cages and the bare minimum of safety requirements .
Having looked at your costings I agree with most as being accurate, however seats can be got for much less than 400 euro each.

Just to clarify, I am not a novice to the sport.
I competed many years ago as a navigator and I have been involved with Rallying all my adult life.

Most 106/205s are NOT running brembos or anything like it. Most run standard calipers with carbon Lorraine pads etc,
The big thing everyone tells me is spares, and I agree.
Cup car parts are crazy money, gti parts are readily available and affordable.

darragh o meara

barney 20v wrote: »

I am not looking to compete against top cars or crews, I'm just looking to gain experience and get finishes.


Most small FWD cars available have bolt in cages and the bare minimum of safety requirements .


Having looked at your costings I agree with most as being accurate, however seats can be got for much less than 400 euro each.


Most 106/205s are NOT running brembos or anything like it. Most run standard calipers with carbon Lorraine pads etc,
The big thing everyone tells me is spares, and I agree.

Cup car parts are crazy money, gti parts are readily available and affordable.

Ok to reply to your post Ive separated them into sections.

You want a car to get finishes in, Unfortunately and I have personal experience of this, A car with the basic of everything i.e.. a get you out on the stages at the minimal cost will very likely leave you down somewhere as the parts are not up to the abuse of rallying, Be it brake fluid that boils and leaves you with a pedal that is completely useless, an engine mount that can't handle the abuse , or a drive shaft that snaps under the pressure. All of the above have happened to me in my years at it. In fact in my first rally we didnt even get off the start line as the drive shaft snapped as we put down the power.. There is no greater depressing moment than that happening you I can assure you as there is no refund of your entry fee. So a little extra on the parts will pay off dividends in the long run. Unfortunately Peugeot driveshafts are prone to snapping and hence the reason the pug sport cup shafts are so expensive, because everyone wants them..

As regards safety equipment, This area is something you dont skimp on whatsoever. I will never drive a rallycar with a bolt in cage ever again after having a few accidents over the years. My last accident was in a car with a weld in cage and we hit a solid stone wall head on at near 120mph. The fact that I'm typing this now and not 6 foot under or in a wheelchair like I'm very sure I'd be had it been a bolt in cage is testament to their strength so go with the very best you can afford. Thats not to say a bolt in cage is not effective its just not as good and doesnt offer the same protection.

Regarding seats, Yes you can get cheaper but how much cheaper I dont know, Dealers sell a lot of bucket seats but not all are homologated for rallying so be sure and check this out, Last time I bought wrap around seats they were in the region of 400 each. Again you get what you pay for.

And to the braking question, Don't the cup cars run a 4 pot brembo or alcon caliper on the front?? I'm fairly sure they do, In fact I had a pair of peugeot sport brembo calipers from a 106 for my 306 when I had it but these could have been from a 106 maxi.

But yes I'm 99.9% sure the cup cars had 4 pots on the front. Going down the carbonne lorraine route is advisable and they are great pads but they're very expensive, Over 190 sterling a pair the last time I got them!! However I did find the ferrodo racing ds3000's a bit cheaper and they worked just as well on the 4 pots as well as the 306 gti 6 callipers. Be sure however that you use proper dot 5 brake fluid though as anything else will give you headaches, Its expensive but well worth it...

The 106 gti is a great car and I would love another one in the future but its bigger brother the 206 cup car may also be worth a look and they do appear every so often for handy money, Similar spec too....

106 Rallyes come up for sale from time to time and I know there is one or two on donedeal at the moment within your price range, These should not be ruled out as they are a very capable car, A friend of mine had one for a few years and it was a very able car with plenty of go in it even in group n form!!! The later rallyes had the same engine as the gti iirc, but even with this you could be looking for parts and upgrading as you go along. Most of the 106s are out of homologation now I reckon so you should be good to make a few changes here and there.

Spares are important if you get the right ones, Over time you'll realise what you need and what you don't. Even just having a spare set of wheels if bought new could set you back well into the 100's so again I go back to the buy a fully prepped car as you'll no doubt get a few with it.

Hopefully I've given you some nuggets of advice, Its great to see another person getting involved as in the past few years the sport has been in decline. Im hoping to get back going myself in 2013 with a modified Ford ka with a little surprise under the bonnet that should raise a few eyebrows

barney 20v

darragh o meara wrote: »

Ok to reply to your post Ive separated them into sections.

You want a car to get finishes in, Unfortunately and I have personal experience of this, A car with the basic of everything i.e.. a get you out on the stages at the minimal cost will very likely leave you down somewhere as the parts are not up to the abuse of rallying, Be it brake fluid that boils and leaves you with a pedal that is completely useless, an engine mount that can't handle the abuse , or a drive shaft that snaps under the pressure. All of the above have happened to me in my years at it. In fact in my first rally we didnt even get off the start line as the drive shaft snapped as we put down the power.. There is no greater depressing moment than that happening you I can assure you as there is no refund of your entry fee. So a little extra on the parts will pay off dividends in the long run. Unfortunately Peugeot driveshafts are prone to snapping and hence the reason the pug sport cup shafts are so expensive, because everyone wants them..

As regards safety equipment, This area is something you dont skimp on whatsoever. I will never drive a rallycar with a bolt in cage ever again after having a few accidents over the years. My last accident was in a car with a weld in cage and we hit a solid stone wall head on at near 120mph. The fact that I'm typing this now and not 6 foot under or in a wheelchair like I'm very sure I'd be had it been a bolt in cage is testament to their strength so go with the very best you can afford. Thats not to say a bolt in cage is not effective its just not as good and doesnt offer the same protection.

Regarding seats, Yes you can get cheaper but how much cheaper I dont know, Dealers sell a lot of bucket seats but not all are homologated for rallying so be sure and check this out, Last time I bought wrap around seats they were in the region of 400 each. Again you get what you pay for.

And to the braking question, Don't the cup cars run a 4 pot brembo or alcon caliper on the front?? I'm fairly sure they do, In fact I had a pair of peugeot sport brembo calipers from a 106 for my 306 when I had it but these could have been from a 106 maxi.

But yes I'm 99.9% sure the cup cars had 4 pots on the front. Going down the carbonne lorraine route is advisable and they are great pads but they're very expensive, Over 190 sterling a pair the last time I got them!! However I did find the ferrodo racing ds3000's a bit cheaper and they worked just as well on the 4 pots as well as the 306 gti 6 callipers. Be sure however that you use proper dot 5 brake fluid though as anything else will give you headaches, Its expensive but well worth it...

The 106 gti is a great car and I would love another one in the future but its bigger brother the 206 cup car may also be worth a look and they do appear every so often for handy money, Similar spec too....

106 Rallyes come up for sale from time to time and I know there is one or two on donedeal at the moment within your price range, These should not be ruled out as they are a very capable car, A friend of mine had one for a few years and it was a very able car with plenty of go in it even in group n form!!! The later rallyes had the same engine as the gti iirc, but even with this you could be looking for parts and upgrading as you go along. Most of the 106s are out of homologation now I reckon so you should be good to make a few changes here and there.

Spares are important if you get the right ones, Over time you'll realise what you need and what you don't. Even just having a spare set of wheels if bought new could set you back well into the 100's so again I go back to the buy a fully prepped car as you'll no doubt get a few with it.

Hopefully I've given you some nuggets of advice, Its great to see another person getting involved as in the past few years the sport has been in decline. Im hoping to get back going myself in 2013 with a modified Ford ka with a little surprise under the bonnet that should raise a few eyebrows

You certainly have, I have been looking at Ka's as well, they seem great value . one with a puma engine would be nice,

I have a very secure, job for life and every weekend off, I don't drink /gamble or smoke.... I need to get rallying in 2013.!
Anyways thanks for the advice , hope to be competing with you some day soon.

darragh o meara

barney 20v wrote: »

You certainly have, I have been looking at Ka's as well, they seem great value . one with a puma engine would be nice,

My thoughts exactly. And the puma engine goes in with not much hassle too

barney 20v

darragh o meara wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. And the puma engine goes in with not much hassle too

Which puma engine is the best though? The 1.6 are rare enough

Halfshaft

Good few 1400 ones around. Good little package.

barney 20v

Halfshaft wrote: »

Good few 1400 ones around. Good little package.

Yea I've seen a few come up for sale, I'm busy trying to find specs on the 1597 cc zetec/duratec 8v.. I'd like a ka but not with the old Kent 1300 engine... Don't know much about the 1.4 engines tbh

darragh o meara

barney 20v wrote: »

Yea I've seen a few come up for sale, I'm busy trying to find specs on the 1597 cc zetec/duratec 8v.. I'd like a ka but not with the old Kent 1300 engine... Don't know much about the 1.4 engines tbh

Chris Birbeck is the man to contact about the 1400 ka's. The conversion kit includes an updated dog box. Some of the 1400 ka's I've seen we're up around 160bhp some can make 180bhp but either engine will cost a lot. I wouldn't put the 1300 pushrods down either. It's a nippy engine in such a light body.