Going the Doctors

msg11

Why is it that a Chemist cannot give out a prescription for a chest infection or flu or other non life treating conditions. The Dept of Health should make a scale of 1-10, the first 1-5 the Chemist can give out the 5-10 has to be given by a Doctor. I have a chest infection, but there is no way in hell I am giving 50 of my finest euro coins to be told this then given a piece of paper.

Can they not update the law on this and move with the times? There are people like me that can't just give 50 to a doctor, while my tax is paying for medical card holders even my so called Pay Related Social Insurance won't cover me to go (in fact it covers very little to be honest).

msg11

msg11 wrote: »

Why is it that a Chemist cannot give out a prescription for a chest infection or flu or other non life treating conditions. The Dept of Health should make a scale of 1-10, the first 1-5 the Chemist can give out the 5-10 has to be given by a Doctor. I have a chest infection, but there is no way in hell I am giving 50 of my finest euro coins to be told this then given a piece of paper.

Can they not update the law on this and move with the times? There are people like me that can't just give 50 to a doctor, while my tax is paying for medical card holders even my so called Pay Related Social Insurance won't cover me to go (in fact it covers very little to be honest).

You need a doctors training and experience to discern if its just a chest cough or TB, or some other serious illness. Not easy to do when you're leaning over the counter at a chemist who is basically trained in knowing drugs and how they work.

osarusan

What if the chemist thinks its a 3 and prescribes accordingly, but it turns out to be an 8?

SunDog

Used to know a guy years back that would go to every pharmacy in town to get "cough medicine".
Nice guy. Lot of positive energy and always a smile.

donegal_road

if you feel a cold or flu coming on, there are 2 things I know you can do to kill it.

Take 6 x 1000mg tablets of vitamin C.

Cut an onion in half and keep it beside you for the day, or beside your bed at night.
The onion trick has just worked for a family member who felt they were coming down with a bad cold yesterday.

super_furry

€50? You're doing well, it's €60 for my GP. There have been times when I know I should have gone but didn't have the cash.

msg11

Do the drugs not say on the packet if symptoms persist contact your doctor. I mean, if I went the chemist got something for the chest infection and it cleared after the course then I would of thought it is a chest infection, if it hasn't then I would say to myself, right time to get seen to and would be happy to give him 50.

I do understand if it was something serious, but if I try treat it first and it's not working and end up going the doctor, is that not better than not treating it at all in the hope it clears when in fact it is getting worse?

Nonoperational

You can't use antibiotics like that, and Chemists aren't trained to diagnose.

humbert

donegal_road wrote: »

if you feel a cold or flu coming on, there are 2 things I know you can do to kill it.

Take 6 x 1000mg tablets of vitamin C.

Cut an onion in half and keep it beside you for the day, or beside your bed at night.
The onion trick has just worked for a family member who felt they were coming down with a bad cold yesterday.

I don't go in for that new fangled shit, it's leeches all the way for me.

Chuck Stone

Candie wrote: »

You need a doctors training and experience to discern if...

I've had asthma most of my adult life.

I don't need to pay a GP to allow me to buy what I know I need.

msg11

Nonoperational wrote: »

You can't use antibiotics like that, and Chemists aren't trained to diagnose.

I'm not asking them to diagnose.

I have looked on the HSE website there and have formed the option that I have a chest infection from looking at the symptoms. If I went the chemist said to the chemist, can you give me something for a chest infection I looked at the HSE website and have all the symptoms, dry mouth, phlegm etc.. The chemist gives me something for it but also warns me if this dose not clear the problem you have to go your GP, the whole process is recorded on a computer and you can't get the same drugs again for 6 months in any chemist.

I mean something has to happen with GP visits the price is madness and it's causing viruses to run riot in the general population cause people like me can't afford to go and the government won't support us cause we work. I mean something is not rite with the system.

What way is it worked in Spain, they have something similar to this?

paddy147

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I've had asthma most of my adult life.

I don't need to pay a GP to allow me to buy what I know I need.

Get a medical card then.Then you can go for free,as many times as you like

msg11

paddy147 wrote: »

Get a medical card then.Then you can go for free,as many times as you like

Not if your in a job paying more than 240 per week you won't get one.

Also, if something like this was to be brought in it could put a halt to the serious volumes of unregulated/untested/dangerous drugs been bought online.

I do think myself it is a good idea, I do agree with posters about if it was something more serious, but I am sure it could be ironed out if this was thought about, it could also save a few million on visits to the GP that the tax payer is funding.

This been Ireland things go backwards before they go forwards.

bnt

There is already a class of drugs / treatments that pharmacists can "prescribe" without a doctor's prescription: they are called "over-the-counter" (OTC) items. So the OP's question is really about what is OTC and what requires a prescription.

paddy147

msg11 wrote: »

Why is it that a Chemist cannot give out a prescription for a chest infection or flu or other non life treating conditions. The Dept of Health should make a scale of 1-10, the first 1-5 the Chemist can give out the 5-10 has to be given by a Doctor. I have a chest infection, but there is no way in hell I am giving 50 of my finest euro coins to be told this then given a piece of paper.

Can they not update the law on this and move with the times? There are people like me that can't just give 50 to a doctor, while my tax is paying for medical card holders even my so called Pay Related Social Insurance won't cover me to go (in fact it covers very little to be honest).

And what exactly is your point there??...(begrudgery perhaps)

As you say in the above post,a medical card is means tested and is given to people on that basis,and is given to people who rely on alot of medication for alot of illnesses,otherwize they would die.

paul4green

Firstly, lay man's term of a "Chest infection" can be a variety of things, from viral bronchitis or viral pneumonia to bacterial bronchitis/pneumonia. Symptoms of which are completely different. Also, bacterial infections vary greatly in terms of treatments and the symptoms seen by the doctor can determine the appropriate antimicrobial therapy to put you on.
Secondly, What if your "chest infection" is actually lung cancer or a more invasive infection such as tuberculosis?
Finally, a pharmacist will not be able to diagnose or exam the lung using a stethoscope, they aren't trained for that or be able to ascertain if your "chest infection" is secondary to something else such as bacterial sinusitis. They could treat the chest infection but not use stronger antimicrobials to clear the source of the problem.

I should think it's well worth your "finest 50" to go see the doctor!

paddy147

paul4green wrote: »

Firstly, lay man's term of a "Chest infection" can be a variety of things, from viral bronchitis or viral pneumonia to bacterial bronchitis/pneumonia. Symptoms of which are completely different. Also, bacterial infections vary greatly in terms of treatments and the symptoms seen by the doctor can determine the appropriate antimicrobial therapy to put you on.
Secondly, What if your "chest infection" is actually lung cancer or a more invasive infection such as tuberculosis?
Finally, a pharmacist will not be able to diagnose or exam the lung using a stethoscope, they aren't trained for that or be able to ascertain if your "chest infection" is secondary to something else such as bacterial sinusitis. They could treat the chest infection but not use stronger antimicrobials to clear the source of the problem.

I should think it's well worth your "finest 50" to go see the doctor!

well said and well posted.

franktheplank

Candie wrote: »

You need a doctors training and experience to discern if its just a chest cough or TB, or some other serious illness. Not easy to do when you're leaning over the counter at a chemist who is basically trained in knowing drugs and how they work.

Funny that i knew a guy recently who had TB, kept going to the Dr's and they kept telling him it was a chest infection!

Yes of course Dr's are important for many things but a lot of their work is routine and often they'll try a standard treatment for general symptoms and based on it's success that's when they'll really look into it.

Can this routine work be given to pharmacists or more advanced specialist nurses, you would think so?

paddy147

For anyone who cant get to see a Doctor during normal hours there is also D-Doc

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/PrimaryCare/GP_Out_of_Hours/D-DOC/



D-Doc sees people from 6pm in the evening to 8am the following morning.

Basicly its an out of hours doctors surgery.

kylith

msg11 wrote: »

I'm not asking them to diagnose.

I have looked on the HSE website there and have formed the option that I have a chest infection from looking at the symptoms. If I went the chemist said to the chemist, can you give me something for a chest infection I looked at the HSE website and have all the symptoms, dry mouth, phlegm etc.. The chemist gives me something for it but also warns me if this dose not clear the problem you have to go your GP, the whole process is recorded on a computer and you can't get the same drugs again for 6 months in any chemist.

I mean something has to happen with GP visits the price is madness and it's causing viruses to run riot in the general population cause people like me can't afford to go and the government won't support us cause we work. I mean something is not rite with the system.

What way is it worked in Spain, they have something similar to this?

But you're not qualified to diagnose either, and it's very possible to diagnose yourself with the wrong illness. Then whatever you get from the pharmacist could either do nothing, make you worse, or aid the evolution of antibiotic resistant bugs.

Pharmacists are generally happy to discuss your symptoms and advise on whether or not they think it's something that you should see a doctor for.

super_furry

I've a bit of a medical condition. Knew it was serious and not something that my GP would be able to treat and that I'd have to see a specialist, fair enough, but to get an appointment with the specialist (private) I have to go to my GP and pay him €60 for a referral letter. I then get diagnosed and treated by the specialist and given a course of medication that will be permanent for the next two years. The first prescription lasts for three months, but my next appointment with the specialist isn't for another six months and to get my prescription refilled I have to again go and pay my GP €60 for a couple of seconds work.

Chucken

paddy147 wrote: »

For anyone who cant get to see a Doctor during normal hours there is also D-Doc

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/PrimaryCare/GP_Out_of_Hours/D-DOC/



D-Doc sees people from 6pm in the evening to 8am the following morning.

Basicly its an out of hours doctors surgery.

Thats a bit of a trip if you live in Sligo

sam34

super_furry wrote: »

I've a bit of a medical condition. Knew it was serious and not something that my GP would be able to treat and that I'd have to see a specialist, fair enough, but to get an appointment with the specialist (private) I have to go to my GP and pay him €60 for a referral letter. I then get diagnosed and treated by the specialist and given a course of medication that will be permanent for the next two years. The first prescription lasts for three months, but my next appointment with the specialist isn't for another six months and to get my prescription refilled I have to again go and pay my GP €60 for a couple of seconds work.

the consultant will have written to your gp with details of what meds you're on. when your script is out, just ring the gp's surgery and ask for a repeat script. most places only charge about €10 for this, rather than booking you in for a full consultation.

super_furry

sam34 wrote: »

the consultant will have written to your gp with details of what meds you're on. when your script is out, just ring the gp's surgery and ask for a repeat script. most places only charge about €10 for this, rather than you needing a full consultation.

I did not know that. Cheers.

Nonoperational

msg11 wrote: »

I'm not asking them to diagnose.

I have looked on the HSE website there and have formed the option that I have a chest infection from looking at the symptoms. If I went the chemist said to the chemist, can you give me something for a chest infection I looked at the HSE website and have all the symptoms, dry mouth, phlegm etc.. The chemist gives me something for it but also warns me if this dose not clear the problem you have to go your GP, the whole process is recorded on a computer and you can't get the same drugs again for 6 months in any chemist.

I mean something has to happen with GP visits the price is madness and it's causing viruses to run riot in the general population cause people like me can't afford to go and the government won't support us cause we work. I mean something is not rite with the system.

What way is it worked in Spain, they have something similar to this?

You've pretty much proved the point there. What exactly would you prescribe for a virus that you can't get without a prescription?

Rasheed

paul4green wrote: »

Firstly, lay man's term of a "Chest infection" can be a variety of things, from viral bronchitis or viral pneumonia to bacterial bronchitis/pneumonia. Symptoms of which are completely different. Also, bacterial infections vary greatly in terms of treatments and the symptoms seen by the doctor can determine the appropriate antimicrobial therapy to put you on.
Secondly, What if your "chest infection" is actually lung cancer or a more invasive infection such as tuberculosis?
Finally, a pharmacist will not be able to diagnose or exam the lung using a stethoscope, they aren't trained for that or be able to ascertain if your "chest infection" is secondary to something else such as bacterial sinusitis. They could treat the chest infection but not use stronger antimicrobials to clear the source of the problem.

I should think it's well worth your "finest 50" to go see the doctor!

Fair enough, but the Op has a point. If I get a chest infection once a year and know a certain antibiotic works, why should I have to go to the GP?

Same with a urinary tract infection, I get these every so often, I know what works but still have to go in to get the script. GP will ask what's wrong, I tell him my symptoms, tell him my antibiotic and the dose and I leave €50 lighter.

Our chemist is great and knows what they are at for anything not very serious, I'd go to them as a first call. I am not into antibiotics though, I think they are probably over used

paul4green

Rasheed wrote: »

Fair enough, but the Op has a point. If I get a chest infection once a year and know a certain antibiotic works, why should I have to go to the GP?

Same with a urinary tract infection, I get these every so often, I know what works but still have to go in to get the script. GP will ask what's wrong, I tell him my symptoms, tell him my antibiotic and the dose and I leave €50 lighter.

Again, there's quite a lot of ignorance in that statement. Different bacteria respond to different antibiotics. You may think a " certain antibiotic" works, but chest infections can be caused by more bacteria than I can count on my 2 hands. Of course, there is the regulars, S.pneumoniae, H.influenzae etc but could you tell me the difference in these two common ones?

Also, Dishing out antibiotics like they are paracetamol is a very bad idea, which I why only a doctor and certain nurses can prescribe.
In india for example, we are seeing multidrug resistant bacteria due it India's disgraceful use of antibiotics. So yes, I think you should have to pay a proper medical opinion and prescrition to protect you and everyone else.

paul4green

bluewolf wrote: »

I am not into antibiotics though, I think they are probably over used

Definitely are overused for cold and flu's etc. Still save millions of lives

franktheplank

paul4green wrote: »

Again, there's quite a lot of ignorance in that statement. Different bacteria respond to different antibiotics. You may think a " certain antibiotic" works, but chest infections can be caused by more bacteria than I can count on my 2 hands. Of course, there is the regulars, S.pneumoniae, H.influenzae etc but could you tell me the difference in these two common ones?

Also, Dishing out antibiotics like they are paracetamol is a very bad idea, which I why only a doctor and certain nurses can prescribe.
In india for example, we are seeing multidrug resistant bacteria due it India's disgraceful use of antibiotics. So yes, I think you should have to pay a proper medical opinion and prescrition to protect you and everyone else.

Agreed, absolutely but it's my experience that even for a more serious chest infection doctors will usually try a general antibiotic first and it's only if this fails that the tests are done to find out the exact strain of infection.

The question being, why can't the pharmacist or advanced nurse take this initial role with the doctor taking over if the first stage treatment doesn't work.

It's been a while since I've had an antibiotic, does it still work like this or are the lab tests done first?

sock puppet

Candie wrote: »

You need a doctors training and experience to discern if its just a chest cough or TB, or some other serious illness. Not easy to do when you're leaning over the counter at a chemist who is basically trained in knowing drugs and how they work.

You don't really. The NHS actually discourage people from going to the doctor if they have a chest infection. Not saying chemists should give out antibiotics but you don't have to go to the doctor every time you get sick.

steddyeddy

Candie wrote: »

You need a doctors training and experience to discern if its just a chest cough or TB, or some other serious illness. Not easy to do when you're leaning over the counter at a chemist who is basically trained in knowing drugs and how they work.

Well sometimes that's true. A chemist would have far more knowledge of biochemistry and pharmocology than a doctor of medicine. Ask a doctor exactly what species of bacteria an antibiotic they prescribe is going to kill and often they will be clueless.

steddyeddy

Nonoperational wrote: »

You've pretty much proved the point there. What exactly would you prescribe for a virus that you can't get without a prescription?

Time. Doctors are over prescribing antibiotics causing an increase in superbugs.

Rasheed

paul4green wrote: »

Again, there's quite a lot of ignorance in that statement. Different bacteria respond to different antibiotics. You may think a " certain antibiotic" works, but chest infections can be caused by more bacteria than I can count on my 2 hands. Of course, there is the regulars, S.pneumoniae, H.influenzae etc but could you tell me the difference in these two common ones?

Also, Dishing out antibiotics like they are paracetamol is a very bad idea, which I why only a doctor and certain nurses can prescribe.
In india for example, we are seeing multidrug resistant bacteria due it India's disgraceful use of antibiotics. So yes, I think you should have to pay a proper medical opinion and prescrition to protect you and everyone else.

Yeah I agree to a certain extent, especially with more severe infections and I've seen the affect of overuse if antibiotics.

I've had four UTI's in the last six months. The same antibiotic worked every time. The last three times, the doctor didn't send a sample for C&S, but I still paid for his time.

Person going in with a skin infection that was sensitive to an antibiotic. It flairs up again, back to the doctor, he looks and repeats the script.

That's what I'm more getting at with antibiotics.

paul4green

Rasheed wrote: »

Yeah I agree to a certain extent, especially with more severe infections and I've seen the affect of overuse if antibiotics.

I've had four UTI's in the last six months. The same antibiotic worked every time. The last three times, the doctor didn't send a sample for C&S, but I still paid for his time.

Person going in with a skin infection that was sensitive to an antibiotic. It flairs up again, back to the doctor, he looks and repeats the script.

That's what I'm more getting at with antibiotics.

I make my GP send things away for C&S when I'm sick, I had recurrent bacterial bronchitis, kept giving my augmentin which wasn't working. Results came back, bacteria in question was producing Extended Spectrum B lactamases and was completely resistant to augmentin. Put onto clarithromycin, cleared up in 5 days.

4 UTI's in 6 months sounds rough to be honest. I'd definitely get C&S done on that by GP.

IvySlayer

A chemist is not a doctor. That's why.

Legal minefield in what you are proposing. If you can go to the chemist and ask for flu medicine, you don't have the flu.

steddyeddy

paul4green wrote: »

I make my GP send things away for
C&S when I'm sick, I had recurrent bacterial bronchitis, kept giving my augmentin which wasn't working. Results came back, bacteria in question was producing Extended Spectrum B lactamases and was completely resistant to augmentin. Put onto clarithromycin, cleared up in 5 days.

4 UTI's in 6 months sounds rough to be honest. I'd definitely get C&S done on that by GP. Are you female?

That's exactly my reasoning. An old lecturer of mine is a botanist. Botanists would generally have a good knowledge of biochemistry. Anyway his wife went to the doctor with a uti and came back with an antibiotic. My lecturer went to the doc on his wife' behalf and asked the doctor what bacteria was causing the infection? The doc hadn't a clue and it turned out the antibiotic prescribed was killing a different bacteria to the one causing the infection. The effect was to remove compitition for the pathogenic bacteria thus prolonging the uti.

paul4green

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's exactly my reasoning. An old lecturer of mine is a botanist. Botanists would generally have a good knowledge of biochemistry. Anyway his wife went to the doctor with a uti and came back with an antibiotic. My lecturer went to the doc on his wife' behalf and asked the doctor what bacteria was causing the infection? The doc hadn't a clue and it turned out the antibiotic prescribed was killing a different bacteria to the one causing the infection. The effect was to remove compitition for the pathogenic bacteria thus prolonging the uti.

Exactly my point, question your doctor to death! It's your health at the end of the day like.
My GP has told me he feels like he's sitting his medical board examinations again when I come to him :P.

franktheplank

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's exactly my reasoning. An old lecturer of mine is a botanist. Botanists would generally have a good knowledge of biochemistry. Anyway his wife went to the doctor with a uti and came back with an antibiotic. My lecturer went to the doc on his wife' behalf and asked the doctor what bacteria was causing the infection? The doc hadn't a clue and it turned out the antibiotic prescribed was killing a different bacteria to the one causing the infection. The effect was to remove compitition for the pathogenic bacteria thus prolonging the uti.

Yup, I think doctors usually have a 'first step' method. Treat things first with a general antibiotic or treatment, which is known to work in the majority of cases for this set of symptoms.

It's only if this fails you actually get the real medical analysis. I don't see why the pharmacist or an advanced nurse couldn't give you this general treatment and if it fails, then you go to the doctor.

Am I missing out on something?

Rasheed

paul4green wrote: »

I make my GP send things away for C&S when I'm sick, I had recurrent bacterial bronchitis, kept giving my augmentin which wasn't working. Results came back, bacteria in question was producing Extended Spectrum B lactamases and was completely resistant to augmentin. Put onto clarithromycin, cleared up in 5 days.

4 UTI's in 6 months sounds rough to be honest. I'd definitely get C&S done on that by GP.

Yeah the UTI's are cat but it's the same bacterium causing, and why I'm getting them so we know trimethoprim does the job.

I feel for you with the chest infection. Nothing as bad as not knowing what's making you sick and side effects, that some people suffer, from Augmentin, can be as bad. The doctor should have sent sputum away, definitely after the first course not working.

All I'm saying is €50 is a lot to people these days.

The system is flawed and more nurse practitioners are needed.

steddyeddy

Indeed. I also question my doc to death aswell. If he doesn't know the underlying biochemistry and microbiology of an illness I change docs.

dj jarvis

franktheplank wrote: »

Yup, I think doctors usually have a 'first step' method. Treat things first with a general antibiotic or treatment, which is known to work in the majority of cases for this set of symptoms.

It's only if this fails you actually get the real medical analysis. I don't see why the pharmacist or an advanced nurse couldn't give you this general treatment and if it fails, then you go to the doctor.

Am I missing out on something?

yup , you are missing out that a good lot of doctors are rubbish , lazy feckers
ESPECIALY the ones who work in a poor area and have a lot of medical card holders on their books


edit + sorry about the post , im using a finnish keyboard and they keys are all over the place
those places are rammed with people all the time , they dont have time to go deep into your problem , and do the usual 2 min and out the door

i was having a heart attack on 2 diff occasions and 2 diff doctors in my local cattle market missed it + i had the CLASSIC + chest arm teeth cramps all on left side + but these top notch docs missed it , got the " ah sure its prob a virus " ****e and chrged 60 euro each time for my troubles

i knew i was having a heart attack so when i got home called a ambulance , the paramedic within 2 mins got it spot on , and withing 20 mins was being operated on (the first time ) within 20 mins , spent 14 days in ICU , yet this trained GP missed it totally , even after i told him what i thought it was , and the second time around it was a consultant who got it wrong , and told me to go home and see my GP , who happend to be the guy that missed it in the first place

so putting all your faith in a GP to come up with the right answer is a dangerous prospect

so if a i had of turned up at a chemist with my problem i know for sure they would have called a ambulance straight away + but 2 GPs told me to go home and get into bed + if i had of listened to them i would be dead

so all this crap about the GP knows best is just not true + most want you in and out as quick as they can . why ? for money

kirving

paul4green wrote: »

Again, there's quite a lot of ignorance in that statement. Different bacteria respond to different antibiotics. You may think a " certain antibiotic" works, but chest infections can be caused by more bacteria than I can count on my 2 hands. Of course, there is the regulars, S.pneumoniae, H.influenzae etc but could you tell me the difference in these two common ones?

Also, Dishing out antibiotics like they are paracetamol is a very bad idea, which I why only a doctor and certain nurses can prescribe.
In india for example, we are seeing multidrug resistant bacteria due it India's disgraceful use of antibiotics. So yes, I think you should have to pay a proper medical opinion and prescrition to protect you and everyone else.

I can't disagree with any of that, it's all true. What gets people is that there is sometimes a gap between a pharmacists common sense, and a €50-60 bill.

An electrical engineer could probably give you a hundred reasons why your TV won't turn on, all very complicated and above most peoples understaning. But that doesn't prevent the guy the local hardware shop giving a reasonalby informed opinion based on his own experience - even if there is a tiny risk of electrocution.