Bronze age offerings in bogs, rivers and lakes.

Prometheus

It can never be proved, but was thinking if the actual reflection of individuals in a water context had anything to do with the reason for votive deposits. Perhaps they saw the reflections as their souls (or whatever their belief system allowed) living in a liminal context. Similar to the Egyptian Ka.
What would be the reason for weapons in particular that are placed in a water context?

pueblo

Petca4 wrote: »

It can never be proved, but was thinking if the actual reflection of individuals in a water context had anything to do with the reason for votive deposits. Perhaps they saw the reflections as their souls (or whatever their belief system allowed) living in a liminal context. Similar to the Egyptian Ka.
What would be the reason for weapons in particular that are placed in a water context?

It's a topic close to my heart :-).

I know very little on the subject but I presume that prehistoric man's spirituality took some form of animism where everything in the natural world would have a spirit.

Water being such a powerful and vital element would certainly have been associated with a very powerful and vital spirit.

As for the association with votive deposits of axes etc in a water context i don't know enough to offer serious comment but in the case of an axe it was more than just a weapon, it was a tool for survival and so perhaps the relationship between water and axe is that of the water of life and the hoped for/petitioned for survival symbolised by the axe?

dr gonzo

If either of you are interested in doing more research I suggest this as a start:

Passage of Arms - Richard Bradley

Prometheus

dr gonzo wrote: »

If either of you are interested in doing more research I suggest this as a start:

Passage of Arms - Richard Bradley

Had to read A passage of arms recently for an essay. I found it very vague and confusing! Which is strange because I usually enjoy anything by Richard Bradley.

dr gonzo

Petca4 wrote: »

Had to read A passage of arms recently for an essay. I found it very vague and confusing! Which is strange because I usually enjoy anything by Richard Bradley.

Thats odd alright, I usually find him readable myself. I must admit that I've read very little of passage of arms, I posted it merely because I knew it specifically dealt with the topic at hand.

pueblo

dr gonzo wrote: »

If either of you are interested in doing more research I suggest this as a start:

Passage of Arms - Richard Bradley

Excellent, many thanks that looks fascinating, will definitely pick up a copy regardless of the possibility of a vague and confusing read!

pueblo

Interesting article on the votive deposition of weapons in a water context in the celtic world here http://traumwerk.stanford.edu/archaeolog/2008/02/celtic_swords_and_arthurs_lady.html

pueblo

and this pdf Hoards, votives, offerings: the archaeology of the dedicated object Robin Osborne 2004

http://www.ffzg.unizg.hr/arheo/ska/tekstovi/hoards_votives.pdf

tac foley

Slightly OT, but you might care to do a little 'digging' into a local site here in yUK - Flag Fen in Peterborough, where an enormous selection of 'broken/killed' votive offerings have been found over the years in the marshy fenland, as well as the remains of the largest wooden processional way found anywhere in the world.

The interface between air and water may have been thought of by bronze-age people as the 'curtain' between the world of the living and the underworld, according to Prof Francis Prior, who has been leading the extended dig there since Noah was learning to paddle.

tac

Wibbs

tac foley wrote: »

The interface between air and water may have been thought of by bronze-age people as the 'curtain' between the world of the living and the underworld

This seems the most obvious and logical explanation for me TF. Even the reflection bit that Prometheus referred to would play into that. The reflection being the internal spirit vibe laying on the surface of the deep etc.

pueblo

Interesting. I read an article on Celtic river & well worship http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/rac/rac15.htmand this passage struck me

"Sanctuaries were erected at these springs by grateful worshippers, and at some of them festivals were held, or they were the resort of pilgrims. As sources of fertility they had a place in the ritual of the great festivals, and sacred wells were visited on Midsummer day, when also the river-gods claimed their human victims. Some of the goddesses were represented by statues or busts in Gallo-Roman times, if not earlier, and other images of them which have been found were of the nature of ex-votos, presented by worshippers in gratitude for the goddess's healing gifts. Money, ingots of gold or silver, and models of limbs or other parts of the body which had been or were desired to be healed, were also presented. Gregory of Tours says of the Gauls that they "represent in wood or bronze the members in which they suffer, and whose healing they desire, and place them in a temple." 1 Contact of the model with the divinity brought healing to the actual limbs on the principle of sympathetic magic. Many such models have been discovered. Thus in the shrine of Dea Sequana was found a vase with over a hundred; another contained over eight hundred. Inscriptions were engraved on plaques which were fastened to the walls of temples, or placed in springs. 2 Leaden tablets with inscriptions were placed in springs by those who desired healing or when the waters were low, and on some the actual waters are hardly discriminated from the divinities. The latter are asked to heal or flow or swell--words which apply more to the waters than to them, while the tablets, with their frank animism, also show that, in some cases, there were many elemental spirits of a well, only some of whom were rising to the rank of a goddess. They are called collectively Niskas--the Nixies of later tradition, but some have personal names--Lerano, Dibona, Dea--showing that they were tending to become separate divine personalities. The Peisgi are also appealed to, perhaps the later Piskies, unless the word is a corrupt form of a Celtic peiskos, or the Latin piscus, "fish." 3 This is unlikely, as fish could not exist in a warm sulphurous spring, though the Celts believed in the sacred fish of wells or streams."

It's probably a stretch but if the Celts offered up replicas of the diseased/injured body part to the spirits then perhaps the bronze age practise of breaking/killing an object before deposition was symbolic of a disease or injury in the person making the votive deposition? Could this be essentially the same ritual?

tac foley

It may well be why we still have the habit ingrained in us to throw a coin into a fountain or stream.

Slightly OT, but the little creek that runs through the ornamental gardens at the Newport OR Sealife Center [well worth a visit if you are that way], has a little sign that reads -

'Attention Visitors - This stream is NOT coin-operated. Thank you.'

tac

Reader1937

Perhaps because water is the only medium that will accept the offering and remove it beyond the hands of people (as opposed to throwing it at a mountain or tree). More offerings buried in ground are found to have been damaged beyond use - people knew they could be retreived from the ground, but not the water.