How does one make a new law.

AnonymousSam

I mean, how can an individual put a certain bill into movement.
How much people must back the petition?
How many TD's must introduce the bill to government.
How must one go about a notary public?


For a starters, I think it's important for all people to know this.
And we (I, for one) have been denied this knowledge.

Its no secret that the government is corrupt.
And if it is corrupt, can someone show me which law it is that states that it is illegal for the Irish people to take its corrupted government out of power by non-peaceful protest.
(I'm not advocating this.)
And yes I am aware of private corporations such as An Garda Síochána having "Donations" from this corrupt government.
Even the elections are fixed, and the large majority of the people know this.
And yes I am aware that the bank has Ireland in debt illegally.
I don't need any lectures on the obvious.
I already know the details of the mechanics of our mafioso system.

Back to my question.

How can an individual put a certain bill into movement.
How much people must back the petition?
How many TD's must introduce the bill to government.
How must one go about a notary public?


I just want to know in detail what I would have to do in order for us to pass our own laws. Or must we resort to non-peaceful protest? (which I do not advocate)

I have no interest in becoming a politician. Although it is not a popular view point, I don't blame the government for its evil acts or its so called incompetence. I would more likely blame myself for letting it happen.
Freedom can't be bestowed, it can only be taken.

So can anyone give me the knowledge of what I must do in order to have this voice.

Thank you very much

-Sam

Skinnykenyan

im not sure how average joe you and i would influence law making but firstly a bill is drafted and put to government which will then put the bill to the oireachtas who debate it and amend it accordingly. the seanad and the dail both agreeing that the bill should be passed and is constitutional will put it to the president for ratification. the president then ratifies it or if he has doubts puts it back to the seanad and dail. once its ratified it can become legislation. id reckon you would need alot of political clout in order to have a bill discussed in the houses of government.

Maudi

Skinnykenyan wrote: »

im not sure how average joe you and i would influence law making but firstly a bill is drafted and put to government which will then put the bill to the oireachtas who debate it and amend it accordingly. the seanad and the dail both agreeing that the bill should be passed and is constitutional will put it to the president for ratification. the president then ratifies it or if he has doubts puts it back to the seanad and dail. once its ratified it can become legislation. id reckon you would need alot of political clout in order to have a bill discussed in the houses of government.

bad things happen when good men stand around and do nothing (or similiar)is how the expression goes..for good men read irish people

ChrisOF

AnonymousSam wrote: »

I mean, how can an individual put a certain bill into movement.
How much people must back the petition?
How many TD's must introduce the bill to government.
How must one go about a notary public?


For a starters, I think it's important for all people to know this.
And we (I, for one) have been denied this knowledge.

Its no secret that the government is corrupt.
And if it is corrupt, can someone show me which law it is that states that it is illegal for the Irish people to take its corrupted government out of power by non-peaceful protest.
(I'm not advocating this.)
And yes I am aware of private corporations such as An Garda Síochána having "Donations" from this corrupt government.
Even the elections are fixed, and the large majority of the people know this.
And yes I am aware that the bank has Ireland in debt illegally.
I don't need any lectures on the obvious.
I already know the details of the mechanics of our mafioso system.

Back to my question.

How can an individual put a certain bill into movement.
How much people must back the petition?
How many TD's must introduce the bill to government.
How must one go about a notary public?


I just want to know in detail what I would have to do in order for us to pass our own laws. Or must we resort to non-peaceful protest? (which I do not advocate)

I have no interest in becoming a politician. Although it is not a popular view point, I don't blame the government for its evil acts or its so called incompetence. I would more likely blame myself for letting it happen.
Freedom can't be bestowed, it can only be taken.

So can anyone give me the knowledge of what I must do in order to have this voice.

Thank you very much

-Sam

Hi sam, as far as I am aware there is no mechanism where by a bill can be introduced by an individual citizen through popular petition.
You can contact your local TD and talk to them about a particular issue, or start a campaign to publicise a given issue and pressurise the Government to introduce legislation in a given area, as is happening on the abortion issue currently, but the actual bill will be drafted between the Civil service and the Government parties, that is if they choose to persue it in the first place.

As far as I know you need to have a tecnical group in the Dáil to introduce a bill.

Information relation to Notaries Public can be found here: http://www.notarypublic.ie/index.html

As for peacefully remoaving the government, we have an election every five years, of more often if the Government party/coalition loses its majority.

Scofflaw

AnonymousSam wrote: »

Its no secret that the government is corrupt.
And if it is corrupt, can someone show me which law it is that states that it is illegal for the Irish people to take its corrupted government out of power by non-peaceful protest.
(I'm not advocating this.)

Taking the government "out of power by non-peaceful protest" is covered in the Constitution:

Article 39 Bunreacht

Treason shall consist only in levying war against the State, or assisting any State or person or inciting or conspiring with any person to levy war against the State, or attempting by force of arms or other violent means to overthrow the organs of government established by this Constitution, or taking part or being concerned in or inciting or conspiring with any person to make or to take part or be concerned in any such attempt.

cordially,
Scofflaw

jimmycrackcorm

Op, the easiest way is to actually stand for election. But I suspect, based on your post that you wouldn't get a lot if support.

Sponge Bob

Only the cabinet can 'make' a new law, in effect. Private members bills will generally be whipped out of it by the government, no matter what. The whips manage government business in the Dáil.

hatrickpatrick

The truth about it is, the cabinet make a decision with almost no consideration of what the public actually wants, and then they put it to the Dail, where it's ring fenced against public input by the fact that any TD who obeys his or her constituents rather than his or her party leadership is thrown out of the party.

The whip system makes a total farce of democracy and while that system stands, the concept proposed in the OP - which is a concept that should definitely be possible for ordinary citizens - is never going to happen.

Last week, Eamonn Gilmore praised his TDs who voted with the leadership against the wills of the people as "brave", while denouncing the true bravery of those who voted for what the people they represent wanted and accepted the unjustified consequences of that.
So to be honest, what you actually have to do is convince the cabinet. The TDs are rather irrelevant since their balls are in a vice throughout their entire term in office.

Sponge Bob

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So to be honest, what you actually have to do is convince the cabinet. The TDs are rather irrelevant since their balls are in a vice throughout their entire term in office.

Precisely. Always remember we have a 4-5 year long dictatorship by cabinet after every election and not a parliament as such. After the last election we even have a new concept called dictatorship by cabinet subcommittee where a mere 4 of the c.18 who attend cabinet make the decisions in effect.

If you have a problem with anything then talk to one of the 4, not to a minister or a junior minister or least of all a TD.

View

Sponge Bob wrote: »

After the last election we even have a new concept called dictatorship by cabinet subcommittee where a mere 4 of the c.18 who attend cabinet make the decisions in effect.

And none of the decisions of this "Gang of 4" needed to secure democratic support from either the full cabinet or the Oireachtas, did they? :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

Has one never head of "party discipline" , non???

Fr Tod Umptious

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The truth about it is, the cabinet make a decision with almost no consideration of what the public actually wants, and then they put it to the Dail, where it's ring fenced against public input by the fact that any TR who obeys his or her constituents rather than his or her party leadership is thrown out of the party.

The whip system makes a total farce of democracy and while that system stands, the concept proposed in the OP - which is a concept that should definitely be possible for ordinary citizens - is never going to happen.

Last week, Eamonn Gilmore praised his TDs who voted with the leadership against the wills of the people as "brave", while denouncing the true bravery of those who voted for what the people they represent wanted and accepted the unjustified consequences of that.
So to be honest, what you actually have to do is convince the cabinet. The TDs are rather irrelevant since their balls are in a vice throughout their entire term in office.

But those who voted for the budget are"brave"

its much tougher to vote for cuts that need to be taken to address our long term problem and face the wrath of the public than to just ignore the problem and pretend that it does not exist, as the likes of SF and a lot of people around here do.

hatrickpatrick

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But those who voted for the budget are"brave"

its much tougher to vote for cuts that need to be taken to address our long term problem and face the wrath of the public than to just ignore the problem and pretend that it does not exist, as the likes of SF and a lot of people around here do.

This is a democracy, if the people who a politician "represents" don't like a bill then that politician shouldn't vote for it.

If they followed this principle, you might have some actual justice in this country, such as hanging corrupt former politicians like Bertie Ahern out to dry instead of continuing to pay him tens of thousands of euro from the public pure each year with absolutely no logical justification for that.

If the people aren't in power, the elites take over, as has happened here. The only people who aren't suffering are those who had their fingers on the button during the mess, and that is a fundamental consequence of the fact that the majority of the people have no leverage whatsoever.

Fr Tod Umptious

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is a democracy, if the people who a politician "represents" don't like a bill then that politician shouldn't vote for it.

If they followed this principle, you might have some actual justice in this country, such as hanging corrupt former politicians like Bertie Ahern out to dry instead of continuing to pay him tens of thousands of euro from the public pure each year with absolutely no logical justification for that.

If the people aren't in power, the elites take over, as has happened here. The only people who aren't suffering are those who had their fingers on the button during the mess, and that is a fundamental consequence of the fact that the majority of the people have no leverage whatsoever.

But they may have principle.
Maybe TDs believe that its better to make a cut in an non core payment like a respite grant than to increase income tax for all.

The way I see it is that the last budget was so fair that people have glamed on to this obscure payment to make a point about because there is noting else to jump up and down about

StillWaters

By submitting a petition to the oireachtas

http://petitions.oireachtas.ie/online_petitions.nsf/PetitionForm?openform&type=intro+to+petitions&lang=EN&r=0.3698347397148609

Sponge Bob

StillWaters wrote: »

By submitting a petition to the oireachtas

http://petitions.oireachtas.ie/online_petitions.nsf/PetitionForm?openform&type=intro+to+petitions&lang=EN&r=0.3698347397148609

I am unaware that any petitions were ever turned into statute law.

They are intended to deal with the Abbeylara situation....where an Oireachtas investigation was ruled illegal ....... but I think a constitutional amanedment is required to give this committee a sound legal basis on which to operate. Even then I feel the whips will frustrate their operation.

See > http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/iop-committee/

micosoft

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is a democracy, if the people who a politician "represents" don't like a bill then that politician shouldn't vote for it.

If they followed this principle, you might have some actual justice in this country, such as hanging corrupt former politicians like Bertie Ahern out to dry instead of continuing to pay him tens of thousands of euro from the public pure each year with absolutely no logical justification for that.

If the people aren't in power, the elites take over, as has happened here. The only people who aren't suffering are those who had their fingers on the button during the mess, and that is a fundamental consequence of the fact that the majority of the people have no leverage whatsoever.

I think you are getting confused between Santa Claus and Representative Democracy which is the system of Democracy we have (and pretty much all democratic countries use).

In a representative democracy we elect representatives who should represent the greater good. That means they consider the facts as they are when they vote, so when the country is bust they vote to bring the states expenditure under control. The alternative is that we lose what little sovereignty we have and have the EU/IMF step in to run us. Not that I particularly support the current government but they are doing what they have to do.

Your Santa Claus version of Democracy is where your personal opinion (you seem to feel you speak for this mythical "ordinary" worker) means that whatever you wants you gets. So you want no bank debt. Vote it away! You want loadsa money for all the "ordinary" voters. Vote the money into existence! You want jobs for everyone! Well just vote them up. It's just that easy.

If you wonder why all politicians in Ireland lie it's because of voters like you - who can't handle reality, believe in fairy tale promises at election time and then can't understand why those obvious lies don't happen when the reality of running a country hits their elected politician. The irony is that the last politician that did exactly what the People wanted WAS Bertie Ahern - the most populist of all politicians who bought himself election after election. I'm pretty certain you voted for him.

Sponge Bob

No mention of the present Minister of Finance trying to buy an election in 2002 by compensating people who unwisely gambled in eircom shares. Sure that wouldn't be fair.

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/election_2002/parties/layout.pdf

So the choice is stark: it is between an Ireland that is short-sighted, selfish, unfair and
inward-looking and an Ireland that is forward-looking, compassionate and generous.
It is a choice between a philosophy that says money is all that counts, and one that puts
money in the wider context of quality of life.
This manifesto gives an overview of the kind of Ireland Fine Gael believes in.

However buying electione etc has nothing to do with the utter impotence of parliamentary democracy in an Ireland run by a small cabinet cabaal and their party whips.

And we haven't even started on the role of the Civil Service in suppressing private bills etc.

micosoft

Sponge Bob wrote: »

No mention of the present Minister of Finance trying to buy an election in 2002 by compensating people who unwisely gambled in eircom shares. Sure that wouldn't be fair.

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/election_2002/parties/layout.pdf



However buying electione etc has nothing to do with the utter impotence of parliamentary democracy in an Ireland run by a small cabinet cabaal and their party whips.

And we haven't even started on the role of the Civil Service in suppressing private bills etc.

Not sure if you are responding to me but all Parties lie in Ireland to get into power. That was the point I was making. The only time you'll see some truth is when they are talking to the IMF or EU or at Davos.

Parliamentary impotence is baked in to our system. We need to double TD's salaries (yes you heard right) and quarter their numbers (so we still save 50%). Very few well paid and powerful TD's would have vastly greater influence to create a effective parliamentary democracy. The current set-up is too parochial and there are too many with too little power.

Sponge Bob

micosoft wrote: »

Not sure if you are responding to me but all Parties lie in Ireland to get into power. That was the point I was making. The only time you'll see some truth is when they are talking to the IMF or EU or at Davos.

There is no evidence that politicians elsewhere do not lie to win votes and there is equally no evidence that our lot are more truthful with the IMF than they are with the electorate. Consequently I fail to see why you conflated both observations.

Parliamentary impotence is baked in to our system. We need to double TD's salaries (yes you heard right) and quarter their numbers (so we still save 50%). Very few well paid and powerful TD's would have vastly greater influence to create a effective parliamentary democracy. The current set-up is too parochial and there are too many with too little power.

That bit is true overall ( dunno about the double salaries) . I would reduce the Dáil to 12 x 10 member constituencies for starters....irrespective of whether I would incease the opportunities for them to legislate as distinct from be whipped in to vote for whatever the civil service produces for the government.

But in order for parliament to be a supreme representative body they must produce meaningful legislation themselves. At present they are allowed to produce nothing and will lose thir party whips if they genuinely try to do so.