The neglected northern end of the 46a

trellheim

been meaning to post for a while. This flagship route is been killed on the northside - no bus lane all the way along the NCR and gets caught on every light - especially at hanlons corner and the cabra road junction. Thing is I can't see where a bus lane would fit !

AngryLips

Well the QBC project happened before the Network Direct project which probably explains the lack of bus lane.

AlekSmart

trellheim wrote: »

been meaning to post for a while. This flagship route is been killed on the northside - no bus lane all the way along the NCR and gets caught on every light - especially at hanlons corner and the cabra road junction. Thing is I can't see where a bus lane would fit !

Nothing really new here...but it should give one a clearer understanding of just how the Articulated Bus experiment failed along the same route....;)

dfx-

AngryLips wrote: »

Well the QBC project happened before the Network Direct project which probably explains the lack of bus lane.

The 10 would've been a flagship-y type route as well, before it was massacred. It should've had a bus lane..

Standard 46A passengers would've have much inclination or history to use the route beyond the city centre, I'd bet - much like the other Network Direct cross city routes, except maybe the 14 - so of course there won't be too many people using it and the VTs needed for the 46A means over-capacity..

trellheim

Standard 46A passengers would've have much inclination or history to use the route beyond the city centre, I'd bet - much like the other Network Direct cross city routes, except maybe the 14 - so of course there won't be too many people using it and the VTs needed for the 46A means over-capacity..

Correct; but there are several people along the NCR who might want to go to UCD etc ( yes classic No. 10 route stuff ) ... but what is the point in tying up so much capacity

The_Wrecker

A lot of tonnage sat there at the church burning fuel. You do get a few going from Phibs spar to UCD, but most jump ship on Oconnel st. Three AX's doing loops of Westmorland st to the Park would do the trick. The 8 min service is not needed over that side after 9am.

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

Standard 46A passengers would've have much inclination or history to use the route beyond the city centre, I'd bet - much like the other Network Direct cross city routes, except maybe the 14 - so of course there won't be too many people using it and the VTs needed for the 46A means over-capacity..

Oh Holy God......I'd be looking at this conundrum from a different perspective....I have a VT with excess capacity along a certain length of route.....how do I set about filling it..?

(For clarity,I'm referring only to Fare-Paying passengers here)

I'd be inclined to get out along that stretch and see what possible commercial tie-ups exist...Aldi's,Lidl's,Tesco Local's, whatever...spend over €25,get a Free One-Day Rambler....?

Spend over €50 get a LeapCard loaded with €10...?

As Mrs(Mr) Beaton famously said in relation to Rabbit Stew...."First,catch your Rabbit"

We have a tendency to study the fluich out of problems like this,all of which goes to allow the problem to grow legs whilst we ponder.....

Sadly,if Ireland had taken Werner Von Braun to it's bosom post WW2 he would be still awaiting the results of a study on whether the Moon was actually made of cheese or not.....:(

trellheim

remember for anyone near parkgate it's probably easier to tip down and pick up a 66,67,25 or 145 ... faster too as all the above use the speedy bus lane into town.

The_Wrecker

trellheim wrote: »

remember for anyone near parkgate it's probably easier to tip down and pick up a 66,67,25 or 145 ... faster too as all the above use the speedy bus lane into town.

Dont forget we mingle with the 39a on our travels too.

CIE

Sounds like a good call to bring back route 10. DB fixed what wasn't broken. In a city, shorter bus routes are more reliable, and this is universal.

Oh yes, and get rid of the alpha suffixes on routes 29A and 46A while we're at it. The 29A was supposed to become the 29 when extended to Baldoyle, and the old route 46 became the "7B" ages ago (as to why they used that number instead of choosing one of the many disused numbers, I do not know; the 7B has nothing to do with route 7).

bmaxi

How long does a round trip on a 46A take? It must be at least three hours, more at rush hour. I caught one at St. Michael's Hospital one day heading for O'Connell St and by journey's end I was thanking the Almighty that my days on Dublin's buses are over. It must be hard to make up lost lap time on the North side leg.

The_Wrecker

bmaxi wrote: »

How long does a round trip on a 46A take? It must be at least three hours, more at rush hour. I caught one at St. Michael's Hospital one day heading for O'Connell St and by journey's end I was thanking the Almighty that my days on Dublin's buses are over. It must be hard to make up lost lap time on the North side leg.

A One way trip off peak is 1hr 23mins, 1hr 41mins peak time. Making up on lost time is normally a short cut down the quays to Dolier st ~ 15/20 mins catch up no problem.

thomasj

CIE wrote: »

Sounds like a good call to bring back route 10. DB fixed what wasn't broken. In a city, shorter bus routes are more reliable, and this is universal.

Why would we bring back the 10? Seriously its a genuine question?

What do you think we should do to the 46a? What about the 39a? What about the d15 routes operating to baggott street?

murphaph

We should make some streets bus (and residents) only. DCC won't do it though as it doesn't benefit them really. Time for the NTA (or whatever it's called these days) to be able to decide on these matters (matters which span silly local authority boundaries).

The_Wrecker

murphaph wrote: »

We should make some streets bus (and residents) only. DCC won't do it though as it doesn't benefit them really. Time for the NTA (or whatever it's called these days) to be able to decide on these matters (matters which span silly local authority boundaries).

Special access streets in this city dont work, the gateless bus gate, Parnell sq east bus lane. Parnell sq to Oconnel buses/taxis only... We need them rising bollards, youtube wont know what hit it!

The_Wrecker

thomasj wrote: »

Why would we bring back the 10? Seriously its a genuine question?

What do you think we should do to the 46a? What about the 39a? What about the d15 routes operating to baggott street?

The 46a is a bulk carrier & big fuel burner (05 VT's) and should never go near pinch points. Turning upon unloading and using the QBC to its fullest with another 100+ passengers.
The Park/Zoo service can commence from Westmorland st without delay and with the 39a crossing our paths very few would lose out.

KD345

CIE wrote: »

Sounds like a good call to bring back route 10. DB fixed what wasn't broken. In a city, shorter bus routes are more reliable, and this is universal.

Why would things be any different with the 10? The problem is not with the number on the front of the bus, it's the traffic on the North Circular Road. I took a 46A last week from Infirmary Road, on the NCR I could see the previous 46A stuck in traffic ahead of us. It's really a traffic nightmare. That said, once the 46A gets beyond Phibsboro it's fine. It carries good numbers and gets people to Belfield far quicker than the 10 did.

AlekSmart

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Special access streets in this city dont work, the gateless bus gate, Parnell sq east bus lane. Parnell sq to O connell buses/taxis only... We need them rising bollards, youtube wont know what hit it!

No need Wreckless,thats all old-hat now....take a leaf out of Dr Livingston's book......Congestion Charge....stick up them cameras...(DCC have already conducted extensive trials of NPR equipment).

€10 a pop and you'll see the congestion melt away....Mind you Dr Mr Livingston did put an extra 400 Buses on and fruz the Busfares too...just to be seen to be fair....:D

bmaxi

The_Wrecker wrote: »

A One way trip off peak is 1hr 23mins, 1hr 41mins peak time. Making up on lost time is normally a short cut down the quays to Dolier st ~ 15/20 mins catch up no problem.

That would involve taking the bus out of service though, not really an ideal solution if it's happening regularly. It suggests to me that what has been mentioned here earlier, i.e. shortened laps on selected services is a better option. That trip from Dun Laoghaire is an ordeal, no free stops, constant loading, heavy traffic. When I worked on the buses it was the easiest route in the city to become permanent on because of the loading and that was when there were two man buses.

The_Wrecker

AlekSmart wrote: »

No need Wreckless,thats all old-hat now....take a leaf out of Dr Livingston's book......Congestion Charge....stick up them cameras...(DCC have already conducted extensive trials of NPR equipment).

€10 a pop and you'll see the congestion melt away....Mind you Dr Mr Livingston did put an extra 400 Buses on and fruz the Busfares too...just to be seen to be fair....:D

Im sure linking the Luas is worth more than 400 buses...... The cameras sound a good idea ~ but we would go the extra mile by giving them to a private company based in Peru.

The_Wrecker

bmaxi wrote: »

That would involve taking the bus out of service though, not really an ideal solution if it's happening regularly. It suggests to me that what has been mentioned here earlier, i.e. shortened laps on selected services is a better option. That trip from Dun Laoghaire is an ordeal, no free stops, constant loading, heavy traffic. When I worked on the buses it was the easiest route in the city to become permanent on because of the loading and that was when there were two man buses.

At peak time a couple of buses an hour would head down the Riverside.
As for making the trip shorter ~ Glendalough bus has the best idea. Touch the edges of the place then turn and return. Enough smaller routes crammed into Suffolk st for the elderly to transfer onto.

dfx-

AlekSmart wrote: »

Oh Holy God......I'd be looking at this conundrum from a different perspective....I have a VT with excess capacity along a certain length of route.....how do I set about filling it..?

(For clarity,I'm referring only to Fare-Paying passengers here)

I'd be inclined to get out along that stretch and see what possible commercial tie-ups exist...Aldi's,Lidl's,Tesco Local's, whatever...spend over €25,get a Free One-Day Rambler....?

Spend over €50 get a LeapCard loaded with €10...?

As Mrs(Mr) Beaton famously said in relation to Rabbit Stew...."First,catch your Rabbit"

We have a tendency to study the fluich out of problems like this,all of which goes to allow the problem to grow legs whilst we ponder.....

Sadly,if Ireland had taken Werner Von Braun to it's bosom post WW2 he would be still awaiting the results of a study on whether the Moon was actually made of cheese or not.....:(

Not just the 05 VTs to fill though with the capacity intersecting the route on the 37/38/38A/39/39A/120/122 and arguably 66/67/69/145.

ordinary_girl

The_Wrecker wrote: »

We need them rising bollards, youtube wont know what hit it!

I saw them when I was in Manchester a few months ago, they're brilliant. They really need to start using them over here!

LXFlyer

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Special access streets in this city dont work, the gateless bus gate, Parnell sq east bus lane. Parnell sq to Oconnel buses/taxis only... We need them rising bollards, youtube wont know what hit it!

Don't fully agree with that. While there are still drivers who ignore the bus priority, there is a huge difference in travel time now between travelling from Parnell Square to Kildare Street at peak times and what it was like prior to the introduction of the bus gate.

Conway635

As regards the delays at Phibsboro, I wonder if the 46A might benefit from using the old 14 routing, which was (inbound only) via Annemoe Road.

When travelling on the 14 in the late 70s, I sometimes noticed that this enabled us to leapfrog a No. 10 which had left the Park 5 minutes ahead of us, but got caught up in the approach to the merge of the Y junction at the church - the 14's routing seeming to benefit from more priority at that merge.

C635

devnull

The 46A doesn't work how it is that is for sure, last week I got on a VT at Westmoreland Street heading towards Phoenix Park, two AV's overtook us by the time we got to Berkeley Road.

Just before driver radioed to say there are two in front of me, and asked to return to the depot to recover the timetable. End result was one AV and one VT pulled in and kicked everyone off and we were told to get on the front AV.

Trouble was that there was not enough room for people from three buses to get on the AV in front, there were about 20 standing downstairs and about 15-20 of us that couldn't get on and had to wait for the next bus because of the early terminating two vehicles.

It's rare I use Dublin Bus these days but as I was drinking that night I was using public transport. Surely it would have made far more sense to actually take the two AV's out of service and put everyone on the VT instead of waiting out in the cold for 15 minutes.

If the driver was over-break etc, why not just swap drivers. The feeling I've got on the rare times that I've got the 46A since the changes is the south side of the route is deemed far more important than the north side.

CIE

KD345 wrote: »

Why would things be any different with the 10? The problem is not with the number on the front of the bus, it's the traffic on the North Circular Road. I took a 46A last week from Infirmary Road, on the NCR I could see the previous 46A stuck in traffic ahead of us. It's really a traffic nightmare. That said, once the 46A gets beyond Phibsboro it's fine. It carries good numbers and gets people to Belfield far quicker than the 10 did.

So why is there traffic on the NCR? What is attracting traffic to it more than to other arteries; where are they coming from and going to? Even frequent bus service is not keeping people off that road and is making them drive? (Oh, it's on one of those "every 7-8 minutes" timetables that really is not 7-8 minutes even without traffic jamming up the roads. Same failure as with CitySwift.)

The 46A does not go directly to Belfield. By that logic, even the old routes 64 and 64A were always "get(ting) people to Belfield faster than the 10 did".

The_Wrecker

CIE wrote: »

So why is there traffic on the NCR? What is attracting traffic to it more than to other arteries; where are they coming from and going to? Even frequent bus service is not keeping people off that road and is making them drive? (Oh, it's on one of those "every 7-8 minutes" timetables that really is not 7-8 minutes even without traffic jamming up the roads. Same failure as with CitySwift.)

The 46A does not go directly to Belfield. By that logic, even the old routes 64 and 64A were always "get(ting) people to Belfield faster than the 10 did".

The main problem on the NCR is that church junction. If the yellow box was kept clear. Also cars not taking up position in the left lane once we get the lights, so 2 cars move into the right lane and nothing can get around to the left lane.

KD345

CIE wrote: »

So why is there traffic on the NCR? What is attracting traffic to it more than to other arteries; where are they coming from and going to? Even frequent bus service is not keeping people off that road and is making them drive? (Oh, it's on one of those "every 7-8 minutes" timetables that really is not 7-8 minutes even without traffic jamming up the roads. Same failure as with CitySwift.)

The 46A does not go directly to Belfield. By that logic, even the old routes 64 and 64A were always "get(ting) people to Belfield faster than the 10 did".

I have no idea why traffic is so bad. My point is whether the bus is displaying 10 or 46A it will be stuck in the same traffic. Why do you think it would be different?

The 46A does get to Belfield quicker than the 10 did, as operating through Leeson Street rather than Baggot Street and Waterloo Road is more direct. Depending on the part of Belfield you're going to, the Flyover can be handier than the new bus terminus.

murphaph

Seems to me a large part of the problem here is a failure of law enforcement (beyond breathalising and speed checking drivers) by the boys in blue. Why am I not surprised...

Passing a no entry sign (with bus and access exemption plate) should be 2 points, just like it is or should be for passing such a sign without exemption plate. The problem is constantly one of poor or non-existent enforcement of the laws we already have.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

Seems to me a large part of the problem here is a failure of law enforcement (beyond breathalising and speed checking drivers) by the boys in blue. Why am I not surprised...

Passing a no entry sign (with bus and access exemption plate) should be 2 points, just like it is or should be for passing such a sign without exemption plate. The problem is constantly one of poor or non-existent enforcement of the laws we already have.

Large part is quite correct.

The reality is of an underresourced Civic Guard force attempting to perform duties,which in the remainder of Europe,are significantly compartmentalized..IE Traffic Police,Local Police,National Police,Gendarmerie etc etc.

Irish administrative thinking appears to focus on a long disproven throry that in every sector,everybody is capable of performing every task.

Theoretically possible,yes,however the level of effectivity at any given task often demands specialization and dedicated resources which we steadfastly refuse to provide.

The answer in this particular enforcement case is to automate it and the infrastructure is quite widely available to do so.

Once the restrictions are clearly signed and timed,then the ANPR Camera simply sits n snaps at whatever amount of € the offence merits...the scale could be graduated if we really can't face the full rigor of punishment vs infringement.

The principle can be used in as many different scenarios as required...

All those Taxi Drivers sitting nonchalantly along the bottom of Grafton Street gazing into space may well shift their asses if it was costing them €80 per gaze...repeated as often as required to lance that particular boil.

The hardy one's ranked-up :eek: ON :eek: the Grafton Street/Suffolk St Pedestrian Crossing could merit a €200 and 4 Point Photo as that particular infringement calls their mental faculties into question also.

Busdrivers,Coachdrivers,Truckdrivers,Cardrivers...Horse and Dray men....CYCLISTS even...grab em all sez I.....But do it electronically,eliminate the chance of sweet-talking the wee Garda or of simply lying your way out of it.....;)

trellheim

As someone has said once it gets to Phibsboro it moves quite well. The 2 main pinchpoints are

1. Hanlons corner : priority is given to Prussia St/Old Cabra road rather than NCR ( usually 1 min cycle time ) No possibility of a buslane really although there is just enough space but its a lights priority problem.

2. Far worse : Cabra Road/NCR at the church. This is NOT due to the yellow box but again really poor priority for the NCR as it gets only 1/4 of the timing, 75% goes to the Cabra road, so the bit between church and Phibsboro fills with vehicles and the buses can't get out. It's only a small timing change needed.

The_Wrecker

trellheim wrote: »

2. Far worse : Cabra Road/NCR at the church. This is NOT due to the yellow box but again really poor priority for the NCR as it gets only 1/4 of the timing, 75% goes to the Cabra road, so the bit between church and Phibsboro fills with vehicles and the buses can't get out. It's only a small timing change needed.

If the first cars through take the right lane then we cant get the VT into the left side and must await the next green.
On another note when we are released by the eagerly awaited green, sometimes the junction is full because of the red light at Doyles corner and a huge backlog.
Its timing at the Church and Doyles that need tweaking.
We will tackle Blessington st next!

trellheim

Ahhh.. Then Extend the box junction a couple of lengths but only on the right hand lane towards doyles corner, that way the VT can get onto the junction and avoid blocking ...

The_Wrecker

trellheim wrote: »

Ahhh.. Then Extend the box junction a couple of lengths but only on the right hand lane towards doyles corner, that way the VT can get onto the junction and avoid blocking ...

Move the box up 12ft and encourage car users into the left lane ~ they fear that dreaded left filter red light (Doyles) so wont use the lane.

AlekSmart

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Move the box up 12ft and encourage car users into the left lane ~ they fear that dreaded left filter red light (Doyles) so wont use the lane.

Ah but Wrecker.....the Irish motorist and the term "encourage" do not sit easily together.....;)

Conway635

trellheim wrote: »

2. Far worse : Cabra Road/NCR at the church. This is NOT due to the yellow box but again really poor priority for the NCR as it gets only 1/4 of the timing, 75% goes to the Cabra road, so the bit between church and Phibsboro fills with vehicles and the buses can't get out. It's only a small timing change needed.

The_Wrecker wrote: »

If the first cars through take the right lane then we cant get the VT into the left side and must await the next green.

Using the old 14 routing via Annemoe Road onto Cabra Road would get round both of these, assuming lack of official action to actually resolve the issue.

As per my previous post, even in the 70s the 14s departing from phoenix Park frequently leapfrogged over 10s that left 5 minutes earlier due to the 14 inbound routing.

C635

The_Wrecker

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ah but Wrecker.....the Irish motorist and the term "encourage" do not sit easily together.....;)

Its kind of 'Mad max' out there at times. Sometimes the left lane doesnt even get a red stopper. If all fails show 'em the panels!:eek:

AlekSmart

The_Wrecker wrote: »

Its kind of 'Mad max' out there at times. Sometimes the left lane doesnt even get a red stopper. If all fails show 'em the panels!:eek:

It all sounds like the recent NEW ! IMPROVED !! Traffic Management system in Sandyford Industrial Estate.....Stupendous amount of Money and Associated other resources to,well.....put in place c.1Km of NEW ! IMPROVED Cycle Lane and add a Static (Non Demand Responsive) Pedestrian Crossing which plays merry-hell with the previously satisfactory arrangement at the Luas Crossing.

Dun Laoighre-Rathdown Council..."Making sure that nothing that works,remains that way for long !!" :eek: