John Little in 1871

littlealison

I have given up on John Andrews for now - and now have questions about my greatgrandfather John Little
(whose son married John Andrews' granddaughter, but that just complicates things...)

John Little was in Dublin by 1870, bringing his first wife Margaret, who then died after her fourth child was born. He remarried within 6 months to Isabella Barr, from Glasgow.

I'm interested in the Irish Glass Bottle Works because John Little was involved and became manager there.


He seems to have worked at the Irish Glass Bottle Works until about 1889 or 1890, when he set up on his own at the Hibernian Bottle Works.



However what I am wondering about is - did he start when the IGBW opened in 1871 - and did he work on tank furnaces for glass then? (A continuous flow system only very recently patented.)

In 1875 he and James Alexander King took out a patent for improvements to this system, so I know they were working tanks then.


Does anyone have any information on this?



- Alison.

ifconfig

Hi Alison,

While doing research on my own "Little" ancestors (who were in Ireland since the early 18th century) I did come across the census records for other Littles and was careful to try to delineate which Little families were clearly not related to us.

I do remember coming across a Richard/Richie/Ritchie Little who was listed as a glass bottle worker/engineer/craftsperson based in Dublin and with a Scottish birthplace.
I assume you've already trawled through those records 1901/1911 Irish census.

I would have to go back over the notes which I took but I am guessing Richard was son or first cousin or close relative of John.
Otherwise it would be a big coincidence given the same or very similar professions.
One could speculate that the elder Little came over to Ireland with that specific craft.
I wonder if there was some association between glass bottle crafts guilds and manufacturers in Scotland and Ireland and whether he was recruited or cherry picked for this skilled work.

The surname Little is particularly common in lowland Scots Border areas (often spelled Lyttle or indeed Liddle/Liddel).
There are some theories that the Scots version of the name came from the river Liddle which straddles part of those regions (eg, Dumfries/Galloway).
The Littles in Scotland were notably part of the so called Riding Clans who often took mercenary positions during the various wars between England and Scotland. Other surnames included Elliot and Beattie.
It is likely that a lot of Little/Lyttles in Northern Ireland were planted settlers who have this heritage.

It would be interesting to figure out the deeper ancestry of your grandfather as to whether he was a Scottish Little going back centuries or whether he was part of an Irish Little family who went to Scotland and returned when career opportunities opened up as Dublin became quite industrial and sucessful as a business location.

My own interest is in the Irish Littles - who apparently descend from an old Gaelic family in Fermanagh/Cavan/Monaghan O'Beaghain -> Beggan and Little. Also I am following a lead on a fascinating other source of the Little surname in Ireland due to a German Palatine immigrant, Wilhelm Klein who settled in Dublin/Leinster unlike the majority of Palatines who settled in Limerick/Wexford/Cork and Kerry.
Finally, there is still a fair possibility that there are Littles in Ireland who may be related to Petit , a Norman baron who was awarded huge tracts of land in Westmeath and Meath during the latter stages of the Norman conquest.
Anglicisation of surnames may conceal the origin.

I am hoping, in time to get a Y-DNA/genetic test done since there are a number of Little DNA studies and databases out there from the diaspora of Littles (either of Irish/English/Scottish/French/German origin).

Hope at least some of this is of use to you - even though perhaps not 100% relevant to your ancestor.

littlealison

Hello ifconfig.

Very interesting about the Littles in Ireland. However I don't think I am related. I haven't found any connection so far to the Dumfries area, and I don't think any of my Little ancestors were in Northern Ireland.

I have Thomas Little (weaver) m in 1786 in Glasgow, who may be the Thomas Little b 1766 to an Adam Little in Dollar near Alloa. (Adam being one witness to the birth.)
There are other records which point to an Alloa connection.

The direct line goes: Thomas Little......Thomas Little 1793.......John Little1812.......John Little1841.........Ritchie Little, 1862.
Both Johns were bottlemakers. So were many others in the extended family, in Ireland, Scotland and England!

I am still trying to sort out what happened in the years 1868-1871, when both Johns left Glasgow and John (One) went to Newton-le-Willows in Lancashire and John (Two) (I think) went first to Newton and then to Dublin.

I think that John Two went to Dublin specifically to join the new bottle works, built in 1871 but advertised for tenders in Belfast in 1870. He may have worked in another bottleworks there first, but the newspaper records are contradictory!
I think both Johns may have been trying to get in on the new technology of the tank system.....they were both very quick previously to get into working the new regenerative furnace in Glasgow (1862).

There is some evidence that John Two didn't get on very well with his father, who stayed in Newton, where it is almost certain that the works there, closed since 1861, were started up again to try out the tank system.

Both ended as partners in bottleworks: and Ritchie went back to Glasgow after 1914, to work as a shipbuilder and then to emigrate to Canada in 1923.....I have been corresponding with his grand-daughter there.

So - I think that my ggrandfather John was a Scottish Little from way back.
I know about the Fighting Littles and have the names Elliot and Armstrong connected here.

But whether we come from the Dumfries area originally, I don't know.

- regards, Alison.

ifconfig

Hi Alison,

You have done some great research.
Establishing the information about patents in glass production and making the tie to your ancestors must be very rewarding.

There is the site below which shows distribution of Littles across UK.
The 1881 option is probably a better gauge of surname distributions.
It certainly sounds like Alloa is where your Littles were clustered.
I was on the cusp of buying a book about the Border Reivers/Fighting Littles and Armstrongs when I found out that our earlier origin wasn't from where I had assumed it might be.
So, I never got around to purchasing that book - but the history looked fascinating.

Here is the National Trust surname site - it really is more for trying to get affirmation that a surname had significant presence in one area or another (based on census data).

http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Surnames.aspx

Carolina Maria

I knew your relative, Stella Dowse, very well. She was a wonderful person. Please contact me if you wish to hear more.

Carolina Maria.