Heating Advice Please

Dee_1982

Hi there. I am installing a new system into my business, but not sure what the best option is for me.

The business is a 3 story pub
Floor 1. Pub-7 rads, 2 sinks.
Floor 2. Function Room- 4 rads, One Sink.
Floor 3. Small Flat- 6 rads, 2 towel heaters, 3 Sinks, 1 Bath, 2 Showers.

Would it be better to heat the flat separately from the pub and function room?
I have heard a lot of people installing what they call a furnace into there homes and some are running 20+ rads etc from it with great effiency.
What would be my best heating and hot water options be??

sky6

You really need to employ a qualified Heating Engineer ( not a Plumber ) as the variants are two great.For instance will all floors be in use at the same time. If not then you need a zoned system. You might be better with two systems with one as back up for the other, as industrial sized boilers are quite pricey. Have you thought about Solar as your hot Water requirement will also be quite high. I could go on but my first comment is the best advice you'll get.

ccsolar

Hi
As sky6 said you need a heating engineer to discuss your options.
You would be best to zone each radiator using a wall thermostat in each room , you will then be able to control the temperatures of each room , reducing the temperature of the rooms least used and sending the heat to the rooms that are most in use.
You also have the option of solar for domestic hot water and solid fuel possibly in the bar


Cc

Dardania

Is the flat rented out i.e. does the tenant pay for their energy separately?

In which case, it would be best (if possible) that they had their own utility meter...be it gas or electricty. If gas, a small combi boiler...

My advice on the function room would be to look at air heating i.e. an AC split unit or two, as you may need to heat sometimes, and you may need to cool when people are there... Much cheaper capital cost compared to rads, bearing in mind how frequently it will be used. Also, no rads on the walls, restricting how you arrange the

For the pub, AC may be an option depending on the cooling requirement, hwoever if you want rads, get them fitted with TRVs for local temp control, and get a combi boiler close to the WCs

Dee_1982

The flat isn't rented out at the minute but it could be a possibility in the future. The function room would be used typically once or twice a week at night for a few hours.
I have heard a lot of people installing these solid fuel furnaces that are supposed to be very slow burining and economical, have any of you got any experience with them?

Dardania

no direct experience. With a furnace (presume you have in mind a stove), I dont think its feasible to just switch them on / off...it mgiht have to be heating voer a long time. Could look nice in a pub...

With the flat, you don't want to be a provider of heat to the tenant...and debt collector later...it might be cleanest to give them their own heating system.
Elec: cheap captial cost, high running cost
Gas: high capital cost, cheap running cost
Insulation massively helps running costs for both options

With the function room, you said yourself about its frequency of use - choose a system accordingly

Dee_1982

No not a stove. I have heard a lot of people installing a furnace for solid fuel. It looks like an oil burner but you lift a panel on the front to load it up with solid fuel. A few of my friends have installed it in there homes and are amazed by it, low running costs and very slow burning.

Dardania

Something like a biomass boiler: http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Renewable_Heat_Deployment_Programme/About_Renewable_Heating/Wood_Chip_and_Wood_Pellet_Boilers/Biomass_Boilers/Biomass_Boilers.html

Could work well for you - bear in mind:

fuel storage (dry, large enough to keep you going a while, and it must be easily accessible both to the boiler and for deliveries)
where to get the fuel, and costs
ash disposal
availability of technicians locally to service it

For domestic hot water with one of these, you would need a cylinder to store it, two way zone valves, and possibly (though maybe not) a pump...

Do any of your pub appliances (dishwashers etc.) have a hot water connection to use the water? Could be cheaper for running them if they do.

For space and ease of use, I'd push towards a combi boiler: http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/FAQ/Boilers/What%E2%80%99s_a_combi_boiler_and_how_does_it_work.html presuming you have gas or oil available

sky6

If you are renting the Apt then it's own independent boiler is a given. It's only when the Tenant is paying for the Gas themselves will they appreciate it's cost.
I think Solar for hot Water combined with a Thermal store which can be heated by a Boiler to maintain Temperatures at the required level. I've seen Solar producing 19* degrees of heat when the snow was 6 inches on the ground.

Stay away from solid fuel as it's not practical in a pub environment. Unless you want an open fire for effect.

I would definitely go with gas if available. Less trouble all round.

The function room is best having it's own heating system which is used only when needed.
As someone who managed a multi functional building I am aware of all the issues and problems.

Dee_1982

I don't have piped mains gas, but I was going to put a high effiency combi gas boiler in the flat for separate zoned heating and hot water.
Then for the function room I was thinking of putting in AC.
And keep my oil fired heating for the pub.

How would that sound to yous all?

sky6

I take it then that you are going with LPG for the flat which is fine.

I can see your thinking on the Function room but AC will not provide sufficient heating in the very Cold weather. I have it here at home and it's fine most of the year for those chilly evenings, but when the temperatures really drop it stops working. So we switch on the oil boiler to heat the house.

With Function rooms you need plenty of heat early in the night as people arrive and want to find it welcoming. Then the room fills up quickly you need to be able to turn the heat down or off to maintain a comfortable temperature in the room.

Oil is fine for the Pub, but make sure to have it properly serviced by someone competent every year. As oil boilers tend to break down in the coldest of weather and is usually due to poor maintenance.

jimjimt

I am just a humble plumber and have work on houses far larger that the pub.
Small hotels, schools etc without the aid of and engineer so do most plumbers I know. It is our profession.
That size of pub would be a breeze for a experience plumber.

Options are endless on what you can do here. One boiler will do all.
Each floor zoned separately.
The apartment can share the boiler with the pub. you just need to install a energy meter to record heat usages. This would be the same as a community heating system sharing the one boiler each house as a separate energy meter.

I presume space is a premium so installing gas bottles/tank and oil tanks and boilers will clogged up valuable space along with safety restrictions keeping gas bottles away from other heat sources and oil tank.
If you install a solid fuel furnace it would have to be lit continuous for tenants to receive heat and hot water.
Gas heating is only affordable in bulk a large gas tank. Which along with bottles would have restrictions on where to install.
So even with the cost of oil it might be your best option if you have space and a safe area to install an oil tank.
If you have space to install a wood pellet system it would be the best and nearly half the cost of oil.

Have you radiators already installed ? Most pubs install radiators box them in and not worth a damn.
If not consider high installed air fan heaters heated from a boiler of your choice.No chasing of floors and you can install them from the first floor to the ground floor just below the ceiling along with installing heating to the second floor/apartment all at one level. Since it is a function room easy to hide and box in pipes.

Unless you have a kitchen serving food hot water will be the smaller part of your requirements and costs and will need the least consideration.

Installing solar panels thermal stores etc take up space that most pubs do not have along with questionable payback costs.

Also I have yet to see a IT or University in Ireland offering qualifications of heating engineer which involves 4 years of study like that of mechanical/electrical/civil engineer.

Just a few thoughts from a humble plumber.

maradonas

yes seperateley.
any fuel is good fuel solid liquid solar.
anything off the top shelf will keep us all warm too

Dtp79

jimjimt wrote: »

I am just a humble plumber and have work on houses far larger that the pub.
Small hotels, schools etc without the aid of and engineer so do most plumbers I know. It is our profession.
That size of pub would be a breeze for a experience plumber.

Options are endless on what you can do here. One boiler will do all.
Each floor zoned separately.
The apartment can share the boiler with the pub. you just need to install a energy meter to record heat usages. This would be the same as a community heating system sharing the one boiler each house as a separate energy meter.

I presume space is a premium so installing gas bottles/tank and oil tanks and boilers will clogged up valuable space along with safety restrictions keeping gas bottles away from other heat sources and oil tank.
If you install a solid fuel furnace it would have to be lit continuous for tenants to receive heat and hot water.
Gas heating is only affordable in bulk a large gas tank. Which along with bottles would have restrictions on where to install.
So even with the cost of oil it might be your best option if you have space and a safe area to install an oil tank.
If you have space to install a wood pellet system it would be the best and nearly half the cost of oil.

Have you radiators already installed ? Most pubs install radiators box them in and not worth a damn.
If not consider high installed air fan heaters heated from a boiler of your choice.No chasing of floors and you can install them from the first floor to the ground floor just below the ceiling along with installing heating to the second floor/apartment all at one level. Since it is a function room easy to hide and box in pipes.

Unless you have a kitchen serving food hot water will be the smaller part of your requirements and costs and will need the least consideration.

Installing solar panels thermal stores etc take up space that most pubs do not have along with questionable payback costs.

Also I have yet to see a IT or University in Ireland offering qualifications of heating engineer which involves 4 years of study like that of mechanical/electrical/civil engineer.

Just a few thoughts from a humble plumber.

Hi jim, I'm a plumber too. I'm fitting a radiator in a room tomorrow. Have you the number of a heating engineer cause I'm all confused how to do it!!

jimjimt

Dtp79 wrote: »

Hi jim, I'm a plumber too. I'm fitting a radiator in a room tomorrow. Have you the number of a heating engineer cause I'm all confused how to do it!!

I do believe they are mythical creatures of some sorts.

Dtp79

jimjimt wrote: »

I do believe they are mythical creatures of some sorts.

Don't get me started on sizing boilers!!!. Has a heating engineer ever held a spanner?!!