reference to angels

clint_silver

I read a thread on the journal at the weekend where a poster was complaining that he was insulted at people coming on expressing grief about that school shooting tragedy where the grief was also accompanied with a reference to the fact the children were angels up in heaven.

not sure he put his point across the best way but I do see what he was saying. Different people grieve in different ways, they express compassion and support in different ways. Should anyone be allowed express a religious addition to their grief as the addition of the religion may dilute it to the person theyre extending support to if theyre non religious.

example.
the poster was saying this should not be allowed
"RIP little ones, you are angels in heaven now"

Poster was saying something like this might be ok
"RIP little ones, I'll say a prayer for you tonight".

it got fairly heated due to subject matter. Am curious to see what the wider aetheist community might think.

robindch

There's a time and a place for discussing religious dishonesty, even if they're well-meaning thoughts, but the immediate aftermath of the violent murders of twenty kids isn't it.

Peregrinus

He's mad. Mad, I tell you. Mad!

I've had people say things to me that they hoped would comfort me, based on their beliefs and hopes rather than mine.

It didn't detract one whit from the support that I get from the fact that they had spoken to me. Their concern for me was just as helpful to me whether there beliefs were the same as mine, or the complete opposite of mine. The fact that they offered what comfort and support they could was what I appreciated.

And, since the, the advice I've always given people who are uncertain how to approach a bereaved person is to offer your support and sympathy in a way which is honest and true to your own feelings and beliefs.

doctoremma

clint_silver wrote: »

the poster was saying this should not be allowed
"RIP little ones, you are angels in heaven now"

Poster was saying something like this might be ok
"RIP little ones, I'll say a prayer for you tonight".

I think that dictating how people are "allowed" to express their sympathy and condolences is pretty interesting behaviour.

Corkfeen

I used to frequent The Journal but the comment section has annoying people from both sides so i've moved on. Meaningful discussion is not to be found there for the most part....

clint_silver

robindch wrote: »

There's a time and a place for discussing religious dishonesty, even if they're well-meaning thoughts, but the immediate aftermath of the violent murders of twenty kids isn't it.

totally agreed and what I thought as well (a grimace with an accompanying "wrong time mate") but I didnt want this thread to be about the timing of the fellas post.

doctoremma

clint_silver wrote: »

totally agreed and what I thought as well (a grimace with an accompanying "wrong time mate") but I didnt want this thread to be about the timing of the fellas post.

So can you clarify why your adversary felt differently about the two statements? That the first asserted an (apparent) untruth as fact?

aidan24326

clint_silver wrote: »

the poster was saying this should not be allowed
"RIP little ones, you are angels in heaven now"

A person who says that means well so what's the problem?

As Robin said it isn't the time to start dissecting, I'd just accept the well-intentioned sentiment and leave it that, even though I do hate such vaccuous statements.

Delirium

clint_silver wrote: »

I read a thread on the journal at the weekend where a poster was complaining that he was insulted at people coming on expressing grief about that school shooting tragedy where the grief was also accompanied with a reference to the fact the children were angels up in heaven.

not sure he put his point across the best way but I do see what he was saying. Different people grieve in different ways, they express compassion and support in different ways. Should anyone be allowed express a religious addition to their grief as the addition of the religion may dilute it to the person theyre extending support to if theyre non religious.

example.
the poster was saying this should not be allowed
"RIP little ones, you are angels in heaven now"

Poster was saying something like this might be ok
"RIP little ones, I'll say a prayer for you tonight".

it got fairly heated due to subject matter. Am curious to see what the wider aetheist community might think.

It's the religious person's "language of grief" for expressing condolences/sympathies to the grieving friends/family of the deceased. Why shouldn't a religious person be able to express their heartfelt sympathies to someone?

clint_silver

doctoremma wrote: »

So can you clarify why your adversary felt differently about the two statements? That the first asserted an (apparent) untruth as fact?

I'll try to articulate my thoughts on this...

If you were to say "RIP little ones, theyre angels in heaven now". : its impressing on the bereaved that its a fact your religion now has taken ownership of the bereaveds deceased. If the bereaved has a different religion or none, they may believe their deceased are anywhere but angels at heaven and could take offense. (debatable whether they should but lets jsut say they could)

"RIP little ones, I'll say a prayer for you tonight". : I'll consult my religious beliefs to give you strength to get through your loss. each to their own.

For me, theres not a defining ownership with the second one. personally, I aint taking offense here, Im a recently lapsed believer, I just "see" what theyre getting at.

clint_silver

aidan24326 wrote: »

A person who says that means well so what's the problem?

As Robin said it isn't the time to start dissecting, I'd just accept the well-intentioned sentiment and leave it that, even though I do hate such vaccuous statements.

as I posted earlier, take the tragedy at hand out of this topic as its something that could occur at any time.


edit: just to clarify "something that could occur" I meant "someone could make that comment at any time".

doctoremma

clint_silver wrote: »

If you were to say "RIP little ones, theyre angels in heaven now". : its impressing on the bereaved that its a fact your religion now has taken ownership of the bereaveds deceased. If the bereaved has a different religion or none, they may believe their deceased are anywhere but angels at heaven and could take offense. (debatable whether they should but lets jsut say they could)

OK, I see your point (if not agree). If someone said that my deceased child was "an angel in heaven", I'd simply accept that as:
1. A platitude, born out of habit, discomfort or situational awkwardness.
2. A genuine attempt to comfort me with what they believe is a helpful statement.

Having said that, I would never offer a similar expression of condolence, not least because I don't believe it but also because I wouldn't want to pre-empt anyone else's belief. So in a way, I agree with your adversary when managing my own behaviour, but I don't "enforce" those rules on the behaviour of others.

In any case, I draw comfort from such statements not by what the statement itself proclaims but because the person has made an attempt to acknowledge and help with pain. That's what gives comfort, that other people care about you and yours.

robindch

clint_silver wrote: »

I just "see" what theyre getting at.

I'd imagine most A+A people probably agree and dislike religion piggy-backing on the tragedy.

But in times like this, well, I think it's a lot more tasteless to draw attention to somebody else's well-meaning religious thought, than it is to make a well-meaning religious thought in the first place. The first signals the elevation of religion above feeling; the second kindness, even if it's bland.

Not included in the above, of course, is the kind of comment produced by Mr Huckabee and others.

lazygal

I don't think this is the right time to call people on their references to angels.


But on the other hand, I'm a member of a couple of other mums forums and there's a constant reference to 'lost angels' by women who've had miscarriages or stillborn babies, with tickers/signatures underneath user names with the date/gender of their 'little angels'. There a subforum within one of them with the title 'lost angels' which invites women to 'record your angel'. Every time I see it I have to refrain from asking what those of us who don't believe in angels or meeting a miscarried foetus in the afterlife are supposed to do. I guess I don't want to step on toes. But I got talking to one mum about it, who expressed her hatred of the phrases like 'there's an angel waiting in heaven/watching over you/one more angel for God to mind' which well meaning people trotted out over a few years of hell she had. References to angels p!ssed her off and it reached a point where she had to tell people that while she knew they meant well, platitudes like that were meaningless and instead of offering comfort just got her back up.

If I was unfortunate enough to lose a child through miscarriage or other means, a well-meaning reference to 'angels' would simply remind me that I don't believe I'll see my child again, rather than offering me any solace or consolation.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

But I got talking to one mum about it, who expressed her hatred of the phrases like 'there's an angel waiting in heaven/watching over you/one more angel for God to mind' which well meaning people trotted out over a few years of hell she had. References to angels p!ssed her off and it reached a point where she had to tell people that while she knew they meant well, platitudes like that were meaningless and instead of offering comfort just got her back up.

You might enjoy Smile or Die by Barbara Ehrenreich. The author was diagnosed with breast cancer some years ago and spent time in hospital, during which she became frustrated with the fluffy-pink-heart-and-rabbits "I'm a survivor!" smile-or-die positive-attitude expected of all cancer patients:

http://www.amazon.com/Smile-or-Die/dp/1847081738/ref=la_B000AQ4X9S_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1355763651&sr=1-10

loveisdivine

I can see why people might get annoyed having it said to them alot. I know I would.

In all honesty I really hate it when you see forums/articles/whatever clogged up with "RIP precious angel". Actually I need to correct that as its usually spelled horrifically too "RIP preshus angle". For some reason it just really grates on my nerves.

ShooterSF

Within a small group if I know no one knows the people personally and aren't as emotionally attached as in this situation I might play into the idea that their religion is true and follow the logical conclusion to point out that we can't say that for sure as we don't know the kids standing in regards sin or belief depending on which you think gets you into heaven, just to remind them that their religion is actually pretty nasty when it comes to dealing with most of the dead. But only if I'm in a really cranky mood and I know the people well enough.

lazygal

robindch wrote: »

You might enjoy Smile or Die by Barbara Ehrenreich. The author was diagnosed with breast cancer some years ago and spent time in hospital, during which she became frustrated with the fluffy-pink-heart-and-rabbits "I'm a survivor!" smile-or-die positive-attitude expected of all cancer patients:

http://www.amazon.com/Smile-or-Die/dp/1847081738/ref=la_B000AQ4X9S_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1355763651&sr=1-10

I actually read this and enjoyed it. I like her writing style since Nickel and Dimed. She spoke a lot of sense, I hate that 'I beat cancer, it was all down to my positive attitude' crap. Thank medical science, not your cheery demeanor.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

I actually read this and enjoyed it.

Likewise I first heard of her on BBC R4 a few years back -- I think the interview is still available here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pqfjh

clint_silver

robindch wrote: »

Likewise I first heard of her on BBC R4 a few years back -- I think the interview is still available here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00pqfjh

I'll have a read of this. Nice one.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

You might enjoy Smile or Die by Barbara Ehrenreich. The author was diagnosed with breast cancer some years ago and spent time in hospital, during which she became frustrated with the fluffy-pink-heart-and-rabbits "I'm a survivor!" smile-or-die positive-attitude expected of all cancer patients:

http://www.amazon.com/Smile-or-Die/dp/1847081738/ref=la_B000AQ4X9S_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1355763651&sr=1-10

When I was diagnosed with cancer I just stopped telling people as I found the response feck all use to me.

'oh my God - I am devastated. That has really upset me. You will be in my prayers. I'll get a Mass said for you yeah?' - Yeah, a Mass would be super after all it's not like I could have done with someone making sure I had milk/bread, walking the dogs when I wasn't able, popping in and lighting the fire, making some soup etc'.

People did do these things - they were to a person Atheists. Perhaps my religious friends were too busy praying as I sure as **** never saw them....:rolleyes:

I may be still annoyed..:cool:

magicbastarder

clint_silver wrote: »

I read a thread on the journal at the weekend where a poster was complaining that he was insulted at people coming on expressing grief about that school shooting tragedy where the grief was also accompanied with a reference to the fact the children were angels up in heaven.

didn't a poster from here on the A&A section mention that one of his comments on the journal on that article was deleted because he said something similar to the above?

Dades

magicbastarder wrote: »

didn't a poster from here on the A&A section mention that one of his comments on the journal on that article was deleted because he said something similar to the above?

Twas here.

Obliq

lazygal wrote: »

If I was unfortunate enough to lose a child through miscarriage or other means, a well-meaning reference to 'angels' would simply remind me that I don't believe I'll see my child again, rather than offering me any solace or consolation.

One of my best friends has had a number of miscarriages after many attempts at IVF, and has now given up trying. She has faith in a God, but this was the start of her painful and ongoing rejection of the Catholic Church's dogma. Every religious relative, friend and neighbour who was aware of what she and her husband was going through, spouted some dreadful platitude at her each time, along the lines of "It was meant to be", "God works in mysterious ways", "Everything happens for a reason", and "Who are we to know God's plan". As the only atheist she knows, she let fly about it all to me one day, and her hurt was very, very clear to me.

She felt that every one of those comments indicated that something was wrong with her in the eyes of God. Realising that these people hadn't at all meant it that way didn't help (they all became thoughtless people in her eyes), nor the realisation that this God they spoke of could not be the one she had/has faith in.

Where the abuse scandals, denigration of women through religion and fear of her job lest she speak up (she's a primary school teacher) did not lead her to question why she still attended Mass in spite of feeling betrayed by the church - these platitudes did.

keane2097

Obliq wrote: »

One of my best friends has had a number of miscarriages after many attempts at IVF, and has now given up trying. She has faith in a God, but this was the start of her painful and ongoing rejection of the Catholic Church's dogma. Every religious relative, friend and neighbour who was aware of what she and her husband was going through, spouted some dreadful platitude at her each time, along the lines of "It was meant to be", "God works in mysterious ways", "Everything happens for a reason", and "Who are we to know God's plan". As the only atheist she knows, she let fly about it all to me one day, and her hurt was very, very clear to me.

She felt that every one of those comments indicated that something was wrong with her in the eyes of God. Realising that these people hadn't at all meant it that way didn't help (they all became thoughtless people in her eyes), nor the realisation that this God they spoke of could not be the one she had/has faith in.

Where the abuse scandals, denigration of women through religion and fear of her job lest she speak up (she's a primary school teacher) did not lead her to question why she still attended Mass in spite of feeling betrayed by the church - these platitudes did.

Reminds me of the line in Dogma -

I remember the exact moment. I was on the phone with my mother and she was trying to council me through this thing and nothing she was saying was making me feel any better and she said, “Bethany….God has a plan.” I was so angry with her. I was, like, “What about my plans?”, you know? I had planned to have a family, with my husband, wasn’t that plan good enough for God? … Apparently not.

fisgon

As for what people are "allowed" to say, I agree with most of the previous posters, in the aftermath of a tragedy it is not the time to be bringing up issues about religion.

In general, though, some of the comments quoted are indicative of the completely platitudinous nature of religion itself. If a comment or attempt at solace comes from a religious perspective it is almost impossible that it is anything other than empty and trite.

The references to "angels" really show this up. I often wonder if people saying them really believe them, or if they are simply following a set pattern of things you are supposed to say. The other points about "God's plan" and the absolute worst, "everything happens for a reason" (Oh really, so what is the reason for the Holocaust, Slavery, the Inquisition, child rape, the massacre of children by a maniac in New England, and on and on.....?) lays bare the complete absence of any form of meaning or profundity in religion in the most harrowing of times.

They are empty of comfort because they can't be anything else, based as they are on a series of fantasies.