Running quicker V's Running further- An Ultra Question

sideswipe

Trying to decide on my goals for next year and at a bit of a crossroads.

I signed up for the Conn Ultra last year after reading the race reports here.
I felt at the time it would be a nice challenge and change after trying to get my times down this year. Unfortunately I struggled for most of the year and while I got plenty of milage in (just shy of 2000 at the moment) I struggled to get the times down, Breaking sub 3:30 in Berlin but feeling I should have been able to knock another chuck off that.

I've been getting some good quality milage in but strained my calf muscle during a half marathon last weekend which my physio thinks will keep me from running for 2 weeks, he also questioned my sanity running the Ultra!

I know this can be a divisive issue but I'd be interested to get peoples opinions on what they would do in my position-

Try to improve my times over distances up to marathon or give the ultra a go (which I fear will do nothing to improve my speed)?

TFBubendorfer

Your physio knows sweet FA about ultra running, so I'd ignore his opinion entirely.

With regards do pace vs. distance, it does not have to be a question of either/or, it can be one after the other.

You can build a great endurance base fitness when training for an ultra. You won't be all that speedy during the ultra itself, but you can take those fitness gains and build on them for your subsequent races at faster speeds.

menoscemo

Whats your limiting factor at marathon distance? Is it Endurance or speed?

I always found that training for Conn Ultra took chunks off my Marathon PB. Not necessarily because it made me faster at the shorter distances (though it did a bit) but because it allowed me to get the maximum out of the speed I already had.

So if you feel that endurance is your issue over marathon then yes, training for Conn Ultra should help you improve your Marathon time.

MrCreosote

sideswipe wrote: »

Try to improve my times over distances up to marathon or give the ultra a go (which I fear will do nothing to improve my speed)?

Which one do you feel you'd enjoy more?

sideswipe

menoscemo wrote: »

Whats your limiting factor at marathon distance? Is it Endurance or speed?

Six marathons in and I'm still not sure of the answer to that question:o
Although at times I feel it's neither option a or b above but rather option c - my head. I really have to fight with myself to push through pain and discomfort while racing. That's why I'm thinking of racing more over shorter distances to train myself to HTFU more effectively.

Which one do you feel you'd enjoy more?

Good question. I'd only enjoy one if I hit my target, I'd probably enjoy the other by just completing it, similar to the feeling I got from my first marathon.

I suppose you are right Thomas in that it's not an either/or situation. I'm probably leaning towards giving it a shot as planned (current injury permitting). The fact I'm 39.3 years old on race day has to be some sort of omen!!

Enduro

sideswipe wrote: »

Six marathons in and I'm still not sure of the answer to that question:o
Although at times I feel it's neither option a or b above but rather option c - my head. I really have to fight with myself to push through pain and discomfort while racing. That's why I'm thinking of racing more over shorter distances to train myself to HTFU more effectively.

The thing is that pain and discomfort should always be there, no matter what the distance, presuming you want to give it your best shot. There's no escaping it (unless you're racing for position and you're miles in front of all your competitors!). It's different types of pain and discomfort, depending on the distance, but not necessarily any easier for longer/shorter events . It's your inner drive and determination that will get you through in the end. Really engaging with the racing aspect of the event is one of the main motivators I use to harness endurance speed.

It sound like you want to give Conn a go... just go for it!

tHE vAGGABOND

Asked myself similar questions when looking at 2013, and I just came to the conclusion that

1) Conn is one of the best and most beautiful races in the country IMHO, based on having done the half a few years ago, so I wanted to go back there..
2) The Ultra seems a bit crazy, so I wanted to give it a go - for myself and for the overall experience..
3) The folks I know in real life [Who also mainly also hang out in these parts] who have done the Ultra have blown massive chunks off marathon times in second half of year..

Therefore thinking about my running plans, life experience and just wanting to have fun - it seems like a good plan

So Im doing the Conn Ultra in April and blowing the crap out of my marathon PB in DCM in October

McWotever

+ 1 on the vAGGABOND

I did the Ultra last year and shaved 20 mins off my DCM time and ran a sub 3:20. And at that I felt brand new crossing the DCM line. The extra distance in the ultra defiantly stood for me. My friend who did the ultra with me also PB'd in DCM

Go for it.

rom

To be blunt I presume that the only reason why people knocked huge chunks off their marathon PB by ultra training is that they didn't train correctly for the endurance side of the marathon. Personally if my goal race was a marathon I wouldn't train and do an ultra. The recovery/taper of an ultra and it not being an A race would be a nice bit of training time lost that you could have used towards marathon training. If most beginners trained for a marathon like they would train for an ultra then their times would be much better based on the same weekly mileage and sub 3 would be today's sub 4 like it was before.

menoscemo

rom wrote: »

To be blunt I presume that the only reason why people knocked huge chunks off their marathon PB by ultra training is that they didn't train correctly for the endurance side of the marathon. Personally if my goal race was a marathon I wouldn't train and do an ultra but train for an ultra and do a marathon. The recovery/taper of an ultra and it not being an A race would be a nice bit of training time lost that you could have used towards marathon training. If most beginners trained for a marathon like they would train for an ultra then their times would be much better based on the same weekly mileage and sub 3 would be today's sub 4 like it was before.

I agree with this to an extent. I set my last 2 marathon PB's while training for an Ultra.
The only problem was that I was left so fatigued by setting marathon PB's that I messed up the ultra :pac:

In Fairness though If you can get up to 60-70-80 miles/week (or whatever) of easy running while training for an Ultra it will serve you well as a base building excercise s alter in the year you should be able to reporoduce the same quantity of mileage with a bit of extra quality thrown in....

SnappyDresser

Its always going to be about the marathon. Even the dog in the street remembers the marathon greats but only the ultra geeks care about those 24/48 hour or 100 mile champions :O)

Enduro

i008787 wrote: »

Its always going to be about the marathon. Even the dog in the street remembers the marathon greats but only the ultra geeks care about those 24/48 hour or 100 mile champions :O)

Sure, if you're likely to be a marathon great. However, on the off chance that you're not born and raised in the rift valley though, it makes sod all difference to 99.999999% of the population (both dog and human) whether your marathon PB or your 24/48 hour pb is better.

Hakuna Matate

TFBubendorfer

i008787 wrote: »

Its always going to be about the marathon. Even the dog in the street remembers the marathon greats but only the ultra geeks care about those 24/48 hour or 100 mile champions :O)

I'm sure neither the dogs in the streets nor the vast majority of their owners could tell you the name of either the present Olympic marathon champions nor the reigning marathon world record holders (even if some people might be familiar with the name of the present female record holder if you mentioned it).

SnappyDresser

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I'm sure neither the dogs in the streets nor the vast majority of their owners could tell you the name of either the present Olympic marathon champions nor the reigning marathon world record holders (even if some people might be familiar with the name of the present female record holder if you mentioned it).

Will have to disagree on that I think. Zatopek, Shorter, De Castella, Lopez, Bordin, Gebrselasie, Speeding, Ikangaa are very well know to many sports fans. Cant see them knowing any Ultra runners unfortunately

Enduro

i008787 wrote: »

Will have to disagree on that I think. Zatopek, Shorter, De Castella, Lopez, Bordin, Gebrselasie, Speeding, Ikangaa are very well know to many sports fans. Cant see them knowing any Ultra runners unfortunately

Agreed that the chances are that the general sportsfan is more likely to be able to name a world class marathon runner than a world class ultra runner. But that's not really all that relevant to the race choices of anyone posting here, is it?

I mean, if we were to take this to its logicial conclusion then everyone should just play soccer and forget everything else, as I would say if you took a worldwide sample of both sportsfans and non-sportsfans you'd find that soccer greats had by far the best name recognition (Pele, Maradona, even Beckham :eek:). Marathon runners, or even sprinters (much higher recognition than marathoners generally) are literally and metaphorically not in the same ballpark.

ecoli

I have to agree with Rom here. Take a look at how many people approach Ultra running.

If you look at the approach of many who run Ultras they build there mileage through easy - moderate runs building there aerobic capacity

To me this just sounds like Ideal build up to marathon training for people coming off lower mileage backgrounds. Of course you are gonna see benefits simply because if you look at the majority of marathon runners across the world when you get down to the sub 2.45 region you will see the majority of them have developed to the level where this sort of mileage is the norm for many in marathon training

Effectively many peoples perception of Ultra training in this case is mainly just proper marathon training mileage