Challenge, pick TV and Dave ?

squod

I've lost Challenge, pick TV and Dave for two weeks now. re-tuned both sets and still nothing. fierce annoying as I really need Challenge TV.


Anyone know if theres some manual way of getting them back? Seems all the BBCs, ITVs and stuff I don't want are coming in very clearly.

Peter Rhea

If you're receiving from Divis, the loss of the Arqiva A mux. could be due to interference from Mt. Leinster mux. 2 tests on the same channel.

What part of the country are you in?

squod

Peter Rhea wrote: »

If you're receiving from Divis, the loss of the Arqiva A mux. could be due to interference from Mt. Leinster mux. 2 tests on the same channel.

What part of the country are you in?

Navan, Meath. Receiving from an aerial. Presumably pointed in your general direction (Fermanagh)

Peter Rhea

Fermanagh direction would be the Brougher Mountain transmitter. If you're actually receiving from there, then the Arq. A mux would be subject to interference from Divis, as the Brougher commercial muxes are co-channel with the Divis PSBs.

ardmacha

The basic point is that the minor channels are broadcast at lower power and people in marginal areas may not receive them.

squod

ardmacha wrote: »

The basic point is that the minor channels are broadcast at lower power and people in marginal areas may not receive them.

Cheers. It's just that they're gone for good it seems. And they were grand when they were there! Gonna keep trying to re-tune.

NEW WAVE

I have the same problem as squod and also live near Navan. The aerial is pointed at Divis 60 miles away. I also pick up Arqiva B without any problems. On the Alba Saorview box the Arqiva B signal quality is 100% and the signal level is 85%. I understand both transmit at the same power level. I would have thought if you can receive one at near perfect signal level the other should show something on the signal quality and level bars on the Alba box. However not a sign of anything.

Richard

squod wrote: »

I've lost Challenge, pick TV and Dave for two weeks now. re-tuned both sets and still nothing. fierce annoying as I really need Challenge TV.


Anyone know if theres some manual way of getting them back? Seems all the BBCs, ITVs and stuff I don't want are coming in very clearly.

Probably not much use, but Challenge and Pick TV are now on Freesat. Obviously that will require a dish/box.

Peter Rhea

NEW WAVE wrote: »

I have the same problem as squod and also live near Navan. The aerial is pointed at Divis 60 miles away. I also pick up Arqiva B without any problems. On the Alba Saorview box the Arqiva B signal quality is 100% and the signal level is 85%. I understand both transmit at the same power level. I would have thought if you can receive one at near perfect signal level the other should show something on the signal quality and level bars on the Alba box. However not a sign of anything.

Your trouble is more than likely caused by co-channel interference from the Mt. Leinster Saorview transmissions.

Mux 1 is on channel 23, same as Divis SDN mux, with mux 2 trials on ch.26, same as Arq A.

peadar99

Getting the same issue in east Cavan off an aerial pointing at Divis.
We were getting decent reception on all the NI DVB-T MUXes up to the Mt Leinster testing started.
The interference is basically blanking the signal from Divis on those MUXes - we may sporadically get reception, but it tends not to last any more.

It's no real help if you're just working off an aerial squod, but Challenge and PickTV are available FTA on satellite at the moment.

NEW WAVE

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Your trouble is more than likely caused by co-channel interference from the Mt. Leinster Saorview transmissions.

Mux 1 is on channel 23, same as Divis SDN mux, with mux 2 trials on ch.26, same as Arq A.

Thanks for information. I wonder how large an area and how many people are effected by this issue which I assume would would be even greater during the summer months.

thetwangman

Mt Leinster wiping out UK reception south of the border is one thing but it appears to be also wiping out reception of Divis north of the border. I have satellite, so I have most of the channels anyway, but I like the idea of just using the tv, and I don't want to fork out for a satellite box for the kitchen just for occasional use. I might try a local installer in the new year to see if Mt Leinster can be blocked. Is there any point complaining to the authorities about this?

Peter Rhea

I would think the authorities are well aware of the situation & have factored it into their reception predictions. The PSB muxes of both countries have priority over the purely commercial channels, no matter what side of the border they originate from.

Are you in south Armagh? I entered a random postcode from that general area here: http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/postcodechecker/main/trade/bt358qz/NA/0/NA

You can see that the predicted reception quality for chs. 23 & 26 is well down on that for the other com. mux. on ch. 29. Same for a couple of other postcodes. You can enter your own by clicking 'change address', near the top right of the page.

whitebriar

thetwangman wrote: »

Mt Leinster wiping out UK reception south of the border is one thing but it appears to be also wiping out reception of Divis north of the border. I have satellite, so I have most of the channels anyway, but I like the idea of just using the tv, and I don't want to fork out for a satellite box for the kitchen just for occasional use. I might try a local installer in the new year to see if Mt Leinster can be blocked. Is there any point complaining to the authorities about this?

This issue came up before when mt leinster was on ch 45 and co channel with preseli in Wales.
It wiped out one of its com muxes in fishguard.
Locals were told they had a local relay and should only have freeview lite from there anyway.
You'll probably be told the same.

Your best bet is probably to take it up with your local DUP assembly member,but you'll end up being told to go satelite to be honest.

Gonzo

I am having this problem too living in Dunshaughlin, had perfect reception of these channels and now nothing. Surely something can be done about this, can saorview not broadcast their new mux at frequencies that are different to Freeview so that there are no problems?

whitebriar

Gonzo wrote: »

I am having this problem too living in Dunshaughlin, had perfect reception of these channels and now nothing. Surely something can be done about this, can saorview not broadcast their new mux at frequencies that are different to Freeview so that there are no problems?

As a licence payer,you could enquire how much the electricity is costing for this frivilous testing in a recessionary time,when they're making multi milion euro losses and your licence fee is covering their circa what €100 million borrowings...

It's an awfull lot of your money just for an oireachtas channel and a few test cards on mux 2

Gonzo

Gonzo wrote: »

I am having this problem too living in Dunshaughlin, had perfect reception of these channels and now nothing. Surely something can be done about this, can saorview not broadcast their new mux at frequencies that are different to Freeview so that there are no problems?

I think the big problem is the "digital dividend" - due to the flogging of the 800 MHz spectrum they don't have enough space to separate the transmitters well enough.

Peter Rhea

Gonzo wrote: »

I am having this problem too living in Dunshaughlin, had perfect reception of these channels and now nothing. Surely something can be done about this, can saorview not broadcast their new mux at frequencies that are different to Freeview so that there are no problems?

They can't keep every single person with out of area UK reception happy. Don't be encouraging the amateur frequency planners & financial consultants. Those Welsh switchover threads from a couple of years back were one of the low points of this forum.

NufcNavan

Same problem here, also in Navan.

scruffy66

thetwangman wrote: »

Mt Leinster wiping out UK reception south of the border is one thing but it appears to be also wiping out reception of Divis north of the border. I have satellite, so I have most of the channels anyway, but I like the idea of just using the tv, and I don't want to fork out for a satellite box for the kitchen just for occasional use. I might try a local installer in the new year to see if Mt Leinster can be blocked. Is there any point complaining to the authorities about this?

There might be a way of blocking it. IM getting dave,challenge etc crystal
clear in howth county dublin .Hill blocking mount leinster

You will obviously want an easier solution than building a hill in your back garden but there might be a way , not sure what thou

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

They can't keep every single person with out of area UK reception happy. Don't be encouraging the amateur frequency planners & financial consultants. Those Welsh switchover threads from a couple of years back were one of the low points of this forum.

Nonsense.
The day,a person cannot come here and discuss a reception problem,including policy is a day censorship wins.

Asking whether 2nd muxes are an economical use of licence payers money at the moment is a no brainer.
They aren't.

Peter Rhea

scruffy66 wrote: »

You will obviously want an easier solution than building a hill in your back garden but there might be a way , not sure what thou

If the aerial can't be shielded from the unwanted transmission & one decent aerial doesn't do the trick, an array of 2 aerials spaced horizontally would be worth trying in these cases. When spaced correctly, the Mt. Leinster signal picked up by each should cancel out the other. Will work for most angles of unwanted transmissions, except directly in front & behind.

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Whatever, the forum is a more enjoyable place when you don't have pompous idiots mouthing off on subjects they know little or nothing about.

With respect(something you haven't afforded me in the above),what is the point of more MUX 2 testing if there's nothing cost effective to put on it?
MUX 2 at all sites has been tested ad nauseum for the last couple of years at great cost.I suggest the results be logged and kept in a safe place somewhere untill needed,maybe in a few years.

That would solve the problem.

In the meantime,there is no solution to unwanted interference on a MUX once its enough to garble what's there.
Only hills seem to work and then just sometimes.

Peter Rhea

whitebriar wrote: »

. . . In the meantime,there is no solution to unwanted interference on a MUX once its enough to garble what's there.
Only hills seem to work and then just sometimes.

It's this kind of countering of my post above, that proves you don't deserve much respect. Phased arrays have always been used to reject unwanted transmissions, in the broadcasters' own installations (e.g. reception at relay sites) & also domestic setups.

whitebriar

Peter Rhea wrote: »

It's this kind of countering of my post above, that proves you don't deserve much respect. Phased arrays have always been used to reject unwanted transmissions, in the broadcasters' own installations (e.g. reception at relay sites) & also domestic setups.

Yes but it does not work with dtt except perhaps in very borderline interference circumstances and certainly not with two fringe tx's.
It's blooming amazing where digital goes when its not wanted.
We've plenty of experience down here on trying.

Peter Rhea

Why do you think it doesn't work with DTT? The technique seemed to deliver what was required of it over a whole channel group for analogue transmissions.

I know that with over-the-horizon reception, there will be signal scattering, but it should be possible to null out enough of the offending signal.

whitebriar

Its not what I think,its what I know from experience here in the southeast dealing with Preseli vs Mt Leinster over a 3 year period.
Up north you've only experience of this digital clash for a wet month.

My advice to people in the Republic unlucky enough to have a clash like this,is to lobby,because you're at nothing trying to wave aerials this way or that way to undo the unwanted signal.
Mt Leinster has probably pretty unobstructed path to Navan/east meath,a better route than Divis given its height.

mrdtv2010

whitebriar wrote: »

Its not what I think,its what I know from experience here in the southeast dealing with Preseli vs Mt Leinster over a 3 year period.
Up north you've only experience of this digital clash for a wet month.

My advice to people in the Republic unlucky enough to have a clash like this,is to lobby,because you're at nothing trying to wave aerials this way or that way to undo the unwanted signal.
Mt Leinster has probably pretty unobstructed path to Navan/east meath,a better route than Divis given its height.

As usual you are quite coherent and on the money on this subject (apart from those wasting resources at RTENL as usual, but nothing's changed in the last three years. Complete lack of commercial accountability is evident there. They don't have to pay for these 'experiments': its the hapless licence fee payers.) Resources would be better directed to the on-air content which is currently affordable in the current economic climate in Ireland rather than proving the technically obvious. Again!

As to other rather obvious posters who engage in dull and dismal discourtesy I am a) surprised that they are not properly policed by the moderators on this board and b) that their views are treated with the slightest degree of seriousness.

With that: A very Merry Christmas and a more prosperous 2013!

Peter Rhea

whitebriar wrote: »

Its not what I think,its what I know from experience here in the southeast dealing with Preseli vs Mt Leinster over a 3 year period.

How many phased arrays have you set up? Do you have photos or any recorded info regarding performance? I'm not talking about twin arrays that are set up for max. gain in the wanted direction & nothing else.

Don't be so dismissive of others here. I'd doubt I was the only one pleased when 'closed account' appeared under your first incarnation.

Also, it's no surprise to see that mrdtv offering support to your views. He'd run you a close 2nd for bullShit & pontificating.

Ronnie Raygun

whitebriar wrote: »

Mt Leinster has probably pretty unobstructed path to Navan/east meath,a better route than Divis given its height.

If anything, that would make it easier to null out Mt. Leinster.

whitebriar

Un fortunately,Ronnie,this new signal type has many tricks up it's sleeve to counter the intuitive.
It will depending on terrain bounce back off terrain behind you so no matter what you do,you're up against it if you have an unwanted signal on the same channel as your wanted one.

whitebriar

Gonzo wrote: »

I am having this problem too living in Dunshaughlin, had perfect reception of these channels and now nothing. Surely something can be done about this, can saorview not broadcast their new mux at frequencies that are different to Freeview so that there are no problems?

You should have your recently lost UK channels back soon as according to this post,the RTE NL testing is going to be short lived
Not all but some at least.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82234871&postcount=697

watty

UK Television is a Foreign service. There is NOTHING wrong now with Kippure or Mt Leinster.

It's entirely up to the people that want UK DTT to pay for professional install of properly screened cable, amps and suitable low side lobe & Back-to-front ratio professional aerials. Gain without quality and proper site design is asking for trouble from Tetra and forthcoming LTE and other sites too.

Or get a dish like the majority of people in Ireland need to get UK TV, at least it's all free on Satellite now unlike 12 years ago.

Gonzo

we have all these lost channels on our sky dish, but it's so handy to have them on the aerial as well on other tv's in the house without having to rely on the sky dish where other channels can be viewed. Hopefully the tests will end next week if there is gonna be nothing coming of it and when mux 2 does properly launch hopefully they will use different frequencies.

squod

Little feckers. I watch Challenge maybe four or five times a year for their coverage of a sports event. The good people of RTE (or whatever) have to ruin that too.

SPAWKER

See that channels 56 & 58 are both off air now dont know about Mount Leinster could be too,so should sort out co channel interference.

Ronnie Raygun

whitebriar wrote: »

... this new signal type has many tricks up it's sleeve to counter the intuitive.
It will depending on terrain bounce back off terrain behind you so no matter what you do,you're up against it if you have an unwanted signal on the same channel as your wanted one.

It's still just a UHF radio signal. They're all affected by terrain.

Don't knock what you haven't tried.

NEW WAVE

Can confirm ch 26 from Divis is back.

Gonzo

yes can confirm that the channels are back here too! Challege, dave, picktv, sky news, food network all back and hopefully here to stay.

Ronnie Raygun

Saorview mux 2 will come on eventually.

You really shouldn't regard our own communications infrastructure as merely an impediment to your reception of a few less than top quality UK channels.

I think that Irish people need to realise that we don't have a God given right to receive these channels. We haven't been part of the UK for 90 years so they're foreign channels. I wouldn't consider this a jamming exercise because the testing was on most, if not all, main transmitters. Satellite remains an option for the foreseeable future. Like I said previously, there's even less space to accommodate all of the transmitters now thanks to the flogging of 800 MHz spectrum, and now the UK want to flog 700 MHz too which will cause even more problems if it happens.

If Mount Leinster is causing problems for Freeview viewers in Northern Ireland, or if Divis is causing problems for Saorview viewers in the Republic, then its a different story.

Ronnie Raygun

I wonder if there is any other collection of medium sized islands with the multi-frequency terrestrial tv networks of 2 countries trying to coexist like this?

And in the case of the UK, a very extensive one, carrying a lot of services.

Maybe the complainers need a sense of perspective?

whitebriar

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

It's still just a UHF radio signal. They're all affected by terrain.

Don't knock what you haven't tried.

I only listen to that line from the wife ...
It is only a radio signal yes but it's what it's carrying that is capable of being interpreted by receiving equipment much more differently than analogue and in the case of an unwanted signal bouncing in from somewhere,not interpreted at all.

On a side note,it would indeed be interesting to see how analogue divis at 500kw would compete with a 500kw mt Leinster in a place like Navan.
These things have always fascinated me.
Cairn hill analogue used in certain parts throw heavy co-channel onto preseli analogue.


As for whether we should be watching UK tv,lol that would be an ecumenical matter

Ronnie Raygun

whitebriar wrote: »

It is only a radio signal yes but it's what it's carrying that is capable of being interpreted by receiving equipment much more differently than analogue

If the interferer can be cancelled electrically before it even gets to the receiver, it will never know it was there.

I honestly don't know how effectively this can be done, though I expect even interference from a long way off will have a dominant path & local reflections will be weak.

whitebriar

If the unwanted is sufficiently strong to garble the wanted digital from behind,I wouldn't fancy the chances of nuetering it,its simply too ambient.

There will be issues going forward for people when a big high pressure appears and we get some proper tropospheric ducting.
I sometimes lose Arklow in such circumstances at just 1 mile west of it( but now have Leinster and Kippure to alternate,most people will think its gone though and won't have an alternative tuned.)
I do get french stuff though occasionally, never seen on analogue( bar the odd freaky VHF Spanish visit )
Those are the new co channel problems people will have at times,maybe once or twice a year.
Its all ahead of us.

Gonzo

theres the possiblity of another 7 new mux's from Freeview over the next 4 years for ITV2-4, and some other hd channels so we could see more problems.

On another note, will we ever get the UK channels with Irish advertising on saorview, eg Dave etc? the service on it's own is so limited without the freeview overspill.

Skull Murphy

whitebriar wrote: »

As a licence payer,you could enquire how much the electricity is costing for this frivilous testing in a recessionary time,when they're making multi milion euro losses and your licence fee is covering their circa what €100 million borrowings...

It's an awfull lot of your money just for an oireachtas channel and a few test cards on mux 2

A lot of money, but still a tiny proportion of the total bill, if you want to twist things that way.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

.... Don't be encouraging the amateur frequency planners & financial consultants.

And, right on cue with more financial advice:

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

As usual you are quite coherent and on the money on this subject (apart from those wasting resources at RTENL as usual, but nothing's changed in the last three years. Complete lack of commercial accountability is evident there. They don't have to pay for these 'experiments': its the hapless licence fee payers.) Resources would be better directed to the on-air content which is currently affordable in the current economic climate in Ireland rather than proving the technically obvious.As to other rather obvious posters who engage in dull and dismal discourtesy I am a) surprised that they are not properly policed by the moderators on this board and b) that their views are treated with the slightest degree of seriousness.

I'm not saying that these points aren't valid & I'm not trying to guess at the motivations for the hostility of others but I think I know where he's coming from with this reference:

Those Welsh switchover threads from a couple of years back were one of the low points of this forum.

.... and I would probably go further in stating that I think it's downright nasty & even subversive to accuse our national broadcaster of "jamming" activities & more or less deliberately wasting money.

Just my opinion.