Weird statements in my "lease"

Panline

Hello,

There are a few statement in my lease that I find weird, I wanted to check how common it is:
- First it is not called a lease agreement but a "license agreement"
- It states that "the licensee's occupation of the premises is not intended to be exclusive in any nature. The licensor and any person person authorized by him shall have the right to enter the premises freely at any time and for any purpose without obtaining the permission of the licensee".
- It states "in the event that no fixed term is specified in the second schedule hereto this license agreement is to be taken to be a license from week to week determinable by either party on one week notice ending on any day". Which means, if I understood well, that the landlord can tell us to leave the flat with only a 1 week notice?! I thought it was 28 days if the apartment has been rented for less than 6 months... What is right?

So how common is this all? Is it normal that I find it weird and non compliant with Irish laws?

I know I should I paid more attention before signing but when I signed I had already paid the deposit (which was necessary to "reserve" the flat) and I was urged to find something... I'm currently trying to leave it but I don't have the address of the landlord and he won't answer his email / his phone.

Thanks,

Panline

ps: we are currently paying 4.5E a day in electricity which, on top of being really expensive, is really inconvenient because we have a coin-operated electricity meter and he re-sell the electricity at the rate of 30cts/kWh. The heating is supposed to be "central" but the landlord doesn't heat enough and the overall temperature of the flat doesn't exceed 12/14°C. As a result we have an extra heating which we only use in our bedroom, at night. The rest of the electricity goes into our laptops, immersion and oven / hot plates. When we were not heating at all the electricity cost a little above 2E a day.

Taking a shower has become really uncomfortable because even though the immersion has finished heating the water and we do have hot water in the sinks, it doesn't always come to the shower or it comes but there is no pressure at all.

Yes, we already have let him know about this all.

/vent

not even wrong

The PRTB have an article here covering this exact subject.

Short form: these clauses in your lease are invalid, the landlord cannot escape his legal obligations simply by renaming the "lease" to a "license".

Odelay

Post a photo of the meter here, make sure you take allow the camera to focus. someone here will be able to see the rate per kw/hr you're paying. Sounds ridiculous high. if is is too high you can compare to a normal rate, plus standing charges and take it to you landlord showing him how much extra you're paying per month and ask him kindly to get the meter adjusted to a fair rate.

As for the lease/licence I'm no expert but sounds like bull, show it to someone in threshold.

Best of luck and hope you get to have a warm and relaxed Christmas in your new home.

djimi

None of that is worth the paper it is written on. The landlord can write anything of that nature that they want into the lease; even if you sign it it is still illegal.

If you are renting the flat (as opposed to living with the landlord) then you are a tenant, not a licensee. It looks to me like they went looking for a template for a lease and found one for a licensee, which is a very different type of tenant and one who has almost no rights. You are fully covered by the tenancy act and any clause that is written into your lease that aims to reduce the rights set out for you in the tenany act is invalid and illegal.

Panline

Maybe I am over-paranoid (or over pissed off) but I've been questioning the honesty of my landlord. I quoted this passage of my agreement that states that the landlord can enter my apartment when he wants, as he wants and without notice or permission. Well, he does that. Not really serious, but once we had a question about the attic and came and checked it when we were not here and without informing us. We learnt about this when we asked him if he had an update the attic and said it has already been checked. Recently our 2E coin-operated electricity was full and we sent him a text asking him to empty it. We did not have any answer back and have never heard from him but it has been emptied. I'm so angry at him, I wish I could have a tchat except he is unreachable.

Something else rings my bells. In my building there are 7 flats and we are all foreigners. Not a single Irish. We I forst came to visit all the other flat-seekers were foreigners. So maybe it is just a "funny fact", or maybe he does choose only foreigners because he knows they know less than Irish people about what is acceptable / legal and what isn't.

As for the pictures of the meter as reuested by Odelay here they are: http://imgur.com/ROV7N,SKIoA,EmU7N - Sorry I only have a cellphone so the quality is crap. The first one shows the meter itself, the second one my current credit (8E something) and the last one the rate I'm paying.

djimi

You would be well advised to go off and read up on the tenancy act, as well as sites such as Citizens Information and Threshold, and learn your rights as a tenant inside out so that you can quote them back to him word for word. Your landlord is a complete clown who doesnt have a single clue of the law or of his obligations as a landlord by the sounds of it. Bury this idiot under a pile of your knowledge of tenancy law and perhaps he will get the message.

Start with the fact that it is illegal for him to enter the property without your expressed permission and without prior reasonable notice (ie no less than 24 hours).

Then remind him that there are laws in place regarding notice periods and that he cannot ask you to leave whenever he feels like it. Point him towards the PRTB website where he can read up on the previous cases which involve illegal evictions; many of which result in the landlord paying out compensation to the tenant.

Mrs OBumble

Ahh, the OP has said that they want to leave, but cannot get in touch with the landlord.

So I'm not sure that all that rights stuff is necessarily relevant.

OP, can you text him your notice? Is there a fixed term lease that you're trying to get out of?

Procrastastudy

OP - play him at his own game. Ignore your rights and conform to the conditions of the licence; you are only required to give one weeks notice if what you have transcribed is correct.

Panline

I managed to reach him today (which is miracle...). He said he received our email (he didn't answer it) and say that the lease was for one year (there is no date and it's not a lease, but I haven't say anything). He said to give him 1 or 2 weeks notice when we move out in January and to let the flat clean and that I should have my deposit back. He also say that I should pay the full month in January and that he will pay back the % of the month I haven't spent in the flat.

My plan is to move ASAP in January and let's see if he "cooperates". If he tries to keep a full month / the deposit when we move out I head to PTRB and Threshold (I'll be sure to mention that to him). I know the laws are on my side so I'm not afraid and I will let him know about my intentions in case I don't have my money back.

not even wrong

In your situation I'd let the last month's rent be your deposit. Chances are he will try to keep the deposit. The PRTB will rule in your favour but they are very poor at enforcing their judgements.

Chris_5339762

He also say that I should pay the full month in January and that he will pay back the % of the month I haven't spent in the flat.

I could almost guarantee you wont see that % back.

Panline

Yes I'm afraid of that, and also of the deposit. But in case he does anything I don't like I head to PTRB and Threshold. I'm quite unsure of the best strategy actually...

djimi

If I were you I would do everything absolutely by the book. If there is no term stated on the "lease" then you should give 28 days notice in writing when you intend to leave. Do not believe a word he says; he decides to keep your deposit and you dont stand a chance of getting it back if you did not follow proper procedure to inform him of your intentions to leave. At least by following the rules properly yoy will be in the right should a dispute arise.

January

According to the ESB those coin operated meters are set by the landlord. As in, they choose what rate you pay per KW...

L1011

January wrote: »

According to the ESB those coin operated meters are set by the landlord. As in, they choose what rate you pay per KW...

If they're making a profit on it, I believe they need to be registered as an energy supplier with the CER. Which they clearly aren't.

JustAThought

Who determines profit ; if he has to empty it ( as stated), time off from work, " administration" costs, travel expenses to empty it, etc etc

OP; he sounds like a nightmare . Find somewhere nice, give your notice in writing & cut your losses & leave. In view of his past un-contact ability I'd be strongly considering doing a total clean with pictures , paying all bills in full with receipts & leaving deposit as final months rent.

He DID come -at your request- to empty the meter so you could have light/heat. No doubt this was at short notice & he didn't leave you hanging for days or weeks not able to use it. He probably also works ; & needs to fit you in around his other co
Mitments. There is a clause you signed allowing him access ; so be fair. It's not as though he just dropped by to use your toilet unannounced.

Next time ; read your lease before signing ; that's what normal people do & if you don't like it ; scratch the clause out & have both parties co-sign & bring a non renting friend/witness.

Best of luck.

odds_on

Panline wrote: »

Hello,

There are a few statement in my lease that I find weird, I wanted to check how common it is:
- First it is not called a lease agreement but a "license agreement"
- It states that "the licensee's occupation of the premises is not intended to be exclusive in any nature. The licensor and any person person authorized by him shall have the right to enter the premises freely at any time and for any purpose without obtaining the permission of the licensee".
- It states "in the event that no fixed term is specified in the second schedule hereto this license agreement is to be taken to be a license from week to week determinable by either party on one week notice ending on any day". Which means, if I understood well, that the landlord can tell us to leave the flat with only a 1 week notice?! I thought it was 28 days if the apartment has been rented for less than 6 months... What is right?

So how common is this all? Is it normal that I find it weird and non compliant with Irish laws?

I know I should I paid more attention before signing but when I signed I had already paid the deposit (which was necessary to "reserve" the flat) and I was urged to find something... I'm currently trying to leave it but I don't have the address of the landlord and he won't answer his email / his phone.

Thanks,

Sorry to come in so late, however, the OP may be a licensee and outside the remit of the PRTB. Thus, a landlord can have any clauses in his Licensee Agreement that he wants.

Licensees can be:
persons occupying accommodation in which the owner is not resident under a formal licence arrangement with the owner where the occupants are not entitled to its exclusive use and the owner has continuing access to the accommodation and/or can move around or change the occupants.

In this situation, a landlord/owner of a property can have a licensee agreement with the occupants and the following conditions should be met and should be defined in the licensee agreement:
1. There is a formal agreement between the owner and the occupant/s,
2. the owner has continuing access to the whole property.
3. the owner can move around or change the occupants.
4. the occupant/s do not have exclusive use of their bedrooms.
5. the occupant/s do not have exclusive use of the any part of the property.

For the avoidance of any doubt, a clause should be included in the agreement, stating that the occupants are not tenants but licensees and that the RTA2004 tenancy laws are not applicable to the occupants.

Panline

Hi, my issue is they never made it clear it wasn't a lease. It was posted on the daft as a 1-year lease and then we paid 200E to "reserve" the accommodation. We only had the papers after that. Yes it may sound dumb but we are newcomers in Dublin and we were living in a temporary accommodation so we were in a rush to find something. Sure we won't make the same mistake in the future.

Now what I don't like about my landlord behavior is that he wants it wants it to be just like a lease. He wants us to stay one year, and bitches about that, however there is no mention of it in the license. Also in the license it is stated that the contract is the weekly one but he expect to pay a full month in advance.

Basically we are considered by him just like tenants (notice period, 1-year lease, etc) but we don't have the regular tenant protection. Also he doesn't seem to give a **** about what is in the license because when we talk to him he advises us to act differently than what is stated on the lease.

As for the coin-operated electricity meter, yes I know he set up the rates himself, when I asked him why it was that high he said that he "never paid attention to it".

odds_on

Panline wrote: »

Hi, my issue is they never made it clear it wasn't a lease. It was posted on the daft as a 1-year lease and then we paid 200E to "reserve" the accommodation. We only had the papers after that. Yes it may sound dumb but we are newcomers in Dublin and we were living in a temporary accommodation so we were in a rush to find something. Sure we won't make the same mistake in the future.

Now what I don't like about my landlord behavior is that he wants it wants it to be just like a lease. He wants us to stay one year, and bitches about that, however there is no mention of it in the license. Also in the license it is stated that the contract is the weekly one but he expect to pay a full month in advance.

Basically we are considered by him just like tenants (notice period, 1-year lease, etc) but we don't have the regular tenant protection. Also he doesn't seem to give a **** about what is in the license because when we talk to him he advises us to act differently than what is stated on the lease.

As for the coin-operated electricity meter, yes I know he set up the rates himself, when I asked him why it was that high he said that he "never paid attention to it".

Just because the agreement says "Licence Agreement" does not mean that it is a licence agreement - depending on the terms and conditions of the agreement will determine whether it is a Licence agreement or a tenancy lease agreement.

Some clauses (among others) that would define it as a license agreement would be:
1. It is a formal agreement between the owner and the occupant/s,
2. the owner has continuing access to the whole property.
3. the owner can move around or change the occupants.
4. the occupant/s do not have exclusive use of their bedrooms.
5. the occupant/s do not have exclusive use of the any part of the property.
6. For the avoidance of any doubt, a clause should be included in the agreement, stating that the occupants are not tenants but licensees and that the RTA2004 tenancy laws are not applicable to them.

In a claim with the PRTB, the adjudicators would look at the entire agreement to determine which type it is and consider the above points.

If it is determined as a licence agreement, the landlord can have any clause that he likes. You sign the agreement - you accept the terms.

If it is determined as a tenancy agreement, the landlord is restricted to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 and any special conditions that are not contrary to that Act. You sign the agreement but many of the terms may be illegal. You will only know for sure by making a claim with the PRTB.

Panline

Panline wrote: »

He also say that I should pay the full month in January and that he will pay back the % of the month I haven't spent in the flat.

Don't agree to this. I did, and I never got it back. Didn't get a cent of the deposit back either.

Panline

Epilogue: I left this flat 2 weeks ago, I had the full deposit back and and I had 1 week of "rent" back (I requested 2 since I paid for the full month but stayed only half). Fair enough, I'm so happy to be done with it.

gugleguy

Nice one. Well Done.