The Public Services Card

thiarfearr

With all the focus on privacy and government intrusion (mainly American for some reason), I'm surprised this hasn't been posted here. The government plans to introduce a biometric identity card, that everyone will have to carry on them by 2017, and will be required to access public services, and already people being sent letters saying if they don't agree to it they won't get their social welfare.

Irish Times article: "Fingerprints unlikely to be required, though technically possible for the future"

IT IS “technically possible” that fingerprinting could be added to the public services card in future if the card’s current anti-fraud features prove ineffective, the assistant secretary of the Department of Social Protection has said.

Speaking to the Oireachtas Committee on Jobs, Social Protection and Education yesterday, Niall Barry said while it was possible to include fingerprints on the biometric card, currently being rolled out to social welfare recipients nationwide, it would create too much of a burden on local offices.

“Adding fingerprints to [the] mix just at the moment when we’re trying to do a lot of stuff with the national employment and entitlements service would be an extra burden on local offices and, to be quite honest, they are completely stretched at the moment.

“It’s technically possible, the card could even hold fingerprints if that’s what you wanted to do, but putting systems in place and checking would be a considerable piece of work,” he said.

“I would certainly prefer to go with our current programme and, if that’s not delivering the goods, to add that sort of feature to it.”

He said the cards currently held biometric information, including a photograph that met the standards of the Civil Aviation Authority: “We’ve also invested in software which, behind the scenes, checks photographs one against the other,” Mr Barry said.

The delivery of the public services card, currently used by 6,000 social welfare claimants, is to be “significantly ramped up” in 2012 following the provision of resources from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

It is envisaged the microchipped card will eventually be used by public bodies to identify an individual at points of service and to provide online services.

Mr Barry said there had been a lot of adverse comment that the system was not “talking with” with other Government agency systems such as that of the Revenue Commissioners, but said “nothing could be further from the truth”, and that it exchanged electronic information with 89 agencies.

Departments were working towards a national database “where various agencies take the lead in their expertise and share that with other departments”.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-id-cards-will-carry-your-key-biological-data-2033079.html

THE controversial public services identity card will be equipped to carry biological data -- such as fingerprints and eye scans -- when it is unveiled later this year.

The new details emerged following the confirmation yesterday that the Department of Social and Family Affairs contracted a biometrics company to produce the cards.

The scheme will now be rolled out in the second half of the year.

The department told the Irish Independent that there were "no current plans to carry DNA or any form of biometric data on the card".

"However, the card, as proposed, can include biometric data," it added.

The Government says that about three million people over the age of 16 will carry the card.

And thousands may have to present themselves at welfare offices to sign up for it when it is launched.

It is hoped that every adult in the country will have a card within three or four years.

Existing data held by the Government -- such as photographs, signatures and PPS numbers -- will be used to create the cards.

Much of the data is already available to the State through other forms of identification, such as passports.

More than three million people over the age of 18 hold Irish passports, but it is not clear how many of them live in the State. Figures for those aged 16 and over could not be provided.

If there are any gaps in a person's information held by the authorities, that person will then have to give the missing details -- meaning thousands of people could have to go to welfare offices.

"It is not possible at this time to estimate the volume of customers for whom data is not held but it is intended to ask these customers to personally register for the card," a statement from Social and Family Affairs Minister Mary Hanafin's department said.

The card will initially contain the holder's name, photograph, signature and public service number, which is used to access welfare benefits and other state services.

In addition, personal details such as a person's date of birth, former surnames and mother's surname are likely to be electronically encoded on the identity card.

Any other information that may be deemed necessary can be either inscribed or electronically encoded on the card.

The Government is ploughing ahead with the scheme despite the reservations of groups like the Irish Council for Civil Liberties.

Fraud

Officials say that it will allow easier access to public services, cut red tape and clamp down on welfare fraud.

Biometric Card Services, part of the Smurfit Kappa Group, has won the tender for the €18m contract.

The company -- which is based in Bray, Co Wicklow -- specialises in vouchers, revenue stamps, cheques, passports and other security-printed products.

The company declined to comment on what kind of biometric data the cards would be equipped to carry, and the Department of Social and Family Affairs could not specify either. The department says that Biometric Card Services will handle what it calls the "personalisation, distribution and customer handling" of the card system.

It also says the company will handle the "provision of associated card bureau services".

"Other departments and agencies would also be in a position to use the card.

"A public service provider who uses the Public Service Card will be able to gain the benefits of card-based identity and authentication with minor changes to their systems," the department said.

"The card can be distributed through multiple means such as the postal system, collected at public offices, etc.

"The method of distribution and location of delivery will depend on the circumstances of each applicant."

It is not intended as a national identity card and the department says that such a card is a "wider issue".

"It would require due consideration by the Government and the development and implementation of legislation to support any such policy."

- Fiach Kelly Political Correspondent

coolhull

But what exactly is the problem?

thiarfearr

thiarfearr wrote: »

With all the focus on privacy and government intrusion (mainly American for some reason), I'm surprised this hasn't been posted here. The government plans to introduce a biometric identity card, that everyone will have to carry on them by 2017, and will be required to access public services, and already people being sent letters saying if they don't agree to it they won't get their social welfare.

Irish Times article: "Fingerprints unlikely to be required, though technically possible for the future"

You've been required to have a card when you're collecting or doing anything else with the social welfare for a good few years now.
It does not contain any information that the old card does not, aside from the photograph, which isn't really an issue unless you go around in a mask the entire time.

And what exactly is the problem or conspiracy with them?

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

You've been required to have a card when you're collecting or doing anything else with the social welfare for a good few years now.
It does not contain any information that the old card does not, aside from the photograph, which isn't really an issue unless you go around in a mask the entire time.

And what exactly is the problem or conspiracy with them?

The big problem is that eventually all the information from these cards will be incorporate it into a human implantable RFID microchip and then placed under your skin. :eek:

thiarfearr

King Mob wrote: »

You've been required to have a card when you're collecting or doing anything else with the social welfare for a good few years now.
It does not contain any information that the old card does not, aside from the photograph, which isn't really an issue unless you go around in a mask the entire time.

And what exactly is the problem or conspiracy with them?

The problem is where they will eventually lead, and what data they may eventually contain, which might be sensitive. If its going to be required for public services, its not a stretch to speculate that it might contain your medical history, which you mightn't want people to see. For example, an employer might require to look at the card, before hiring you, this card could contain everything from your medical history, tax, work history, education and whatever else, all of which you mightn't want available. Also issues with data leaks. And its not impossible that, while in recession we could elect an extremist government, who would then find it very easy to preclude people they didn't like from society.

coolhull

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The big problem is that eventually all the information from these cards will be incorporate it into a human implantable RFID microchip and then placed under your skin. :eek:

They haven't even tried that that in the security-concious U.S., so the chances of Ireland being the first country in the world to implant a PS card under the skins of its citizens are pretty remote, I'd say..... Wouldn't you? Considering that this Govt. can't even figure out a way to means-test Child Benefit, I don't think we should worry too much about them being able to implant a security tag in our bodies

coolhull

thiarfearr wrote: »

The problem is where they will eventually lead, and what data they may eventually contain, which might be sensitive. If its going to be required for public services, its not a stretch to speculate that it might contain your medical history, which you mightn't want people to see. For example, an employer might require to look at the card, before hiring you, this card could contain everything from your medical history, tax, work history, education and whatever else, all of which you mightn't want available. Also issues with data leaks. And its not impossible that, while in recession we could elect an extremist government, who would then find it very easy to preclude people they didn't like from society.

Are you seriously suggesting that all employers will be issued with a scanner, and a manual to read all the info on your card?
And that a Government of the future will be able to read your card, and say to themselves, '' No, we don't like this fellah, let's 'preclude him from society'?
I have a feeling that you and I will be long gone before they come up with that technology

Run_to_da_hills

coolhull wrote: »

They haven't even tried that that in the security-concious U.S., so the chances of Ireland being the first country in the world to implant a PS card under the skins of its citizens are pretty remote, I'd say..... Wouldn't you? Considering that this Govt. can't even figure out a way to means-test Child Benefit, I don't think we should worry too much about them being able to implant a security tag in our bodies

They are certainly heading down that direction.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-military-wants-to-microchip-troops-2012-5

thiarfearr

coolhull wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that all employers will be issued with a scanner, and a manual to read all the info on your card?
And that a Government of the future will be able to read your card, and say to themselves, '' No, we don't like this fellah, let's 'preclude him from society'?
I have a feeling that you and I will be long gone before they come up with that technology

Might seem unlikely, but it'd be easy enough to scan a card. A lot of things will be done digitally in the future anyway, already are. If the likes of Sinn Fein/People Before Profit type parties got into power, or worse variations of them, or even something more local like a corrupt guard that doesn't like you, they could make life difficult for you fairly easily

coolhull

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They are certainly heading down that direction.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-military-wants-to-microchip-troops-2012-5

Had a quick look at that, and from what I can see, some military types are considering a microchipto be implanted into troops so as to locate them when missing -in -action. If I was a soldier, I would be pretty glad they could track and locate me in a situation like that
Besides, even here in Ireland, people have been damn glad to have missing relatives found by technicians using something as simple as a mobile phone signal.

thiarfearr

coolhull wrote: »

Had a quick look at that, and from what I can see, some military types are considering a microchipto be implanted into troops so as to locate them when missing -in -action. If I was a soldier, I would be pretty glad they could track and locate me in a situation like that
.

Not so good though if it gets hacked by the enemy

Run_to_da_hills

thiarfearr wrote: »

Not so good though if it gets hacked by the enemy

And it will no doubt.

Iran has already done a splendid job decoding this.. :pac:

AlekSmart

King Mob wrote: »

You've been required to have a card when you're collecting or doing anything else with the social welfare for a good few years now.
It does not contain any information that the old card does not, aside from the photograph, which isn't really an issue unless you go around in a mask the entire time.

And what exactly is the problem or conspiracy with them?

FWIW,to accquire a new Credit Card Driving Licence,due along shortly,will involve the applicant attending,in person,at a designated location to satisfy a more stringent identification requirement.

It appears that Dud Irish Driving Licences have been very popular EU wide,which has prompted a significant rethink on the id requirements.

Although not fully signed-off on as yet,both retinal scanning AND fingerprinting have both been discussed as methods of establishing an applicants ID...doubtless one reason why it'll now cost €55 a pop !

coolhull

thiarfearr wrote: »

Might seem unlikely, but it'd be easy enough to scan a card. A lot of things will be done digitally in the future anyway, already are. If the likes of Sinn Fein/People Before Profit type parties got into power, or worse variations of them, or even something more local like a corrupt guard that doesn't like you, they could make life difficult for you fairly easily

While I do absolutely agree with you about the threat of Sinn Fein (though much less about Rich-Boy Barrett's crowd) , I honestly still can't see any circumstance in which a card, similar to a passport, student card, driving license or SW card, but with more data, could be anything other than beneficial.
At this moment, hundreds, maybe thousands of Civil Service clerical workers can see my PRSI number. It's no secret, and I would post it up here if anyone is remotely interested (which I can't imagine) .
With regard to my health data, I think it would be helpful at the scene of an accident if a doctor or health worker could instantly see my medical history. I can't see how or why anyone else would be interested.
Maybe I'm crazy, but for me personally, there's no major reason to worry about ID cards, microchips or dog tags (So long as the microchip under my skin doesn't itch!)

coolhull

thiarfearr wrote: »

Not so good though if it gets hacked by the enemy

What's wrong that you didn't quote all my posting on the matter? Sometimes it just doesn't do to be selective.....

thiarfearr

thiarfearr wrote: »

The problem is where they will eventually lead, and what data they may eventually contain, which might be sensitive. If its going to be required for public services, its not a stretch to speculate that it might contain your medical history, which you mightn't want people to see. For example, an employer might require to look at the card, before hiring you, this card could contain everything from your medical history, tax, work history, education and whatever else, all of which you mightn't want available. Also issues with data leaks. And its not impossible that, while in recession we could elect an extremist government, who would then find it very easy to preclude people they didn't like from society.

And the cards might be used to help organise people into labour camps when the Soviets invade.
All of the things you have listed are entirely speculative nonsense with no baring on reality similar to what Rtdhs is claiming.

And then all of the stuff you are worried about are abuses of the card, you could be saying the same thing about any technology that can be potentially used against you should the soviets invade...

Your PPS number already links you to a lot of information about your employment history, medical condition and tax information. This card does not offer any new information, nor is there any indication of it allowing this information to be any more available than the current card does.
If you are going to suggest that something like that is down the road (again I suspect that it will be likewise imaginary) then the government already has the information to release to further their evil plans. This card has no baring on that.

thiarfearr

coolhull wrote: »

What's wrong that you didn't quote all my posting on the matter? Sometimes it just doesn't do to be selective.....

What difference would it make to my point?

gibraltar

thiarfearr wrote: »

Might seem unlikely, but it'd be easy enough to scan a card. A lot of things will be done digitally in the future anyway, already are. If the likes of Sinn Fein/People Before Profit type parties got into power, or worse variations of them, or even something more local like a corrupt guard that doesn't like you, they could make life difficult for you fairly easily

The card will not hold the information, its used to access the database that the information is stored on so trying to read the card would produce nothing of an note.

coolhull

thiarfearr wrote: »

What difference would it make to my point?

Frankly, I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make, exactly. If you're saying that, in a war, a soldier that's captured by the enemy would be identified from his ID tag, that doesn't hold water. A POW is required only to give name, rank and serial number.
If his ID tag reveals that he got his appendix out at the age of 13, or drove without car tax in 2008, it's unlikely to change the course of the war.

thiarfearr

coolhull wrote: »

Frankly, I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make, exactly. If you're saying that, in a war, a soldier that's captured by the enemy would be identified from his ID tag, that doesn't hold water. A POW is required only to give name, rank and serial number.
If his ID tag reveals that he got his appendix out at the age of 13, or drove without car tax in 2008, it's unlikely to change the course of the war.

Thats totally different to what was said :rolleyes:
You said it'd be a good idea if soldiers were chipped so they could be located if they were MIA, I pointed out it wouldn't be a good thing if they were hacked and the enemy could see where all your soldiers were/troop movement etc.

coolhull

thiarfearr wrote: »

Thats totally different to what was said :rolleyes:
You said it'd be a good idea if soldiers were chipped so they could be located if they were MIA, I pointed out it wouldn't be a good thing if they were hacked and the enemy could see where all your soldiers were/troop movement etc.

And are you saying that each soldier would have all the information about troop movements, reserves, deployment, etc. imprinted onto his ID tags... I would imagine most enemy intelligence officers would go down the old-fashioned route of torture, truth serums and so on if they want that kind of information
Anyway I was under the impression that the OP was talking about a civilian's privacy not some remote chance of Ireland going to war with Korea,Tadjikistan or somewhere

thiarfearr

coolhull wrote: »

And are you saying that each soldier would have all the information about troop movements, reserves, deployment, etc. imprinted onto his ID tags... I would imagine most enemy intelligence officers would go down the old-fashioned route of torture, truth serums and so on if they want that kind of information
Anyway I was under the impression that the OP was talking about a civilian's privacy not some remote chance of Ireland going to war with Korea,Tadjikistan or somewhere

You're shifting the goalposts, you replied to something RttH posted about soldiers being microchipped saying it'd be a good idea, just pointing out some possible flaws if you bothered to use your brain and think for a change

coolhull

thiarfearr wrote: »

You're shifting the goalposts, you replied to something RttH posted about soldiers being microchipped saying it'd be a good idea, just pointing out some possible flaws if you bothered to use your brain and think for a change

It's a pity really, I was enjoying our little joust there for a while. But now that you've resorted to personal abuse, I don't see any point in discussing it further.
Bye-bye

thiarfearr

coolhull wrote: »

It's a pity really, I was enjoying our little joust there for a while. But now that you've resorted to personal abuse, I don't see any point in discussing it further.
Bye-bye

seanmacc

coolhull wrote: »

They haven't even tried that that in the security-concious U.S., so the chances of Ireland being the first country in the world to implant a PS card under the skins of its citizens are pretty remote, I'd say..... Wouldn't you? Considering that this Govt. can't even figure out a way to means-test Child Benefit, I don't think we should worry too much about them being able to implant a security tag in our bodies

What they would more likely do if they wanted a widespead implantation project is to outscource the contract to some Halliburton type corporation or subsidury. Yes our government couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery but times are different now, the state is in massive hock to the IMF et al who are run and funded by morally disabled human beings. If one of these evil entities the state is in hock to decide that this is a good idea they will put the gun to the head of our leaders to give a contract for this tagging to one of their many freinds who would be extremely efficient in implementing it.