My dog got violated!

davet82

My dog who is 9 months and is heat for the first time somehow manage to escape, i have no idea how she squeezed out the side gate but to my horror my 9 year old came into to tell me that she had got out and there was a dog jumping on her back!

i ran out to defend her honor but i have no idea if he finished the deed, so after some awkward questions from my daughter i took the proper precautions and took her to the vet for an injection which she has to return to finish tomorrow...

anyways my OH is pro-life and i had no idea that this view extended to the animal kingdom and wasn't happy (i know!) anyways after explaining it was like the morning after pill and it was the little gurrier jack russell from down the road, she reluctantly agreed...

so while i was there i decided to book her in to get 'fixed' now the OH is horrified, she thinks its cruel and that she deserves to have a litter and i'd be robbing her of that...

So is it cruel? Do dogs pine to breed? Is there any side effects?

Outkast_IRE

No its not cruel to get your dog neutered/spayed, its the thing any responsible pet dog owner should do.

There are thousands of unwanted puppies and dogs out there at the moment, there is no need to add to that because of some old notion that every bitch should have one litter.

My dog was spayed as soon as the vet gave the ok, and she has been great i have never seen any issues. I honestly believe they wont miss what they dont know about , and having them in a loving family environment with proper attention will keep them very happy.

dave1982

get her sprayed incase this happens again and you end up with 8 pups no one want.

Dingle_berry

davet82 wrote: »

So is it cruel? Do dogs pine to breed? Is there any side effects?

What would you do with her litter?

It's not cruel. Our bitch was always miserable to the point of crying when in heat. After having her spayed there's none of that now and there's no risk of uterine cancer or infection. No side effects for ours. No change in temperament or attitude or weight.

Odelay

dave1982 wrote: »

get her sprayed incase this happens again and you end up with 8 pups no one want.

One sentence "responsible dog ownership" Get her spayed.

davet82

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

My dog was spayed as soon as the vet gave the ok, and she has been great i have never seen any issues. I honestly believe they wont miss what they dont know about , and having them in a loving family environment with proper attention will keep them very happy.

did you find your dog put on lots of weight, my mothers dog got fixed and the poor thing ballooned in size could this be a side effect or is she just being too generous with the portions?

i know its the politically correct thing to do but i wouldn't want to cause the dog any distress long term either

the vet reckoned it had health benefits too if i went ahead with it so i'm sure its the right thing to do...

Odelay

davet82 wrote: »

did you find your dog put on lots of weight, my mothers dog got fixed and the poor thing ballooned in size could this be a side effect or is she just being too generous with the portions?

i know its the politically correct thing to do but i wouldn't want to cause the dog any distress long term either

the vet reckoned it had health benefits too if i went ahead with it so i'm sure its the right thing to do...

Did she use a measure cup when feeding? Spayed or not an overfed dog will get fat.
I use a measure cup, no extras, dogs, like us like more but food, but all needs to be measured. Not always easy on the heart for you to do but better for your dogs heart.........

Christmas day and birthdays are the only exception:D

ABajaninCork

Especially with bitches, it's kindest to get them spayed ASAP after the first heat.

Pyrometria, phantom pregnancies, uterine cancer, are just some of the risks if you don't get her spayed.

davet82

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Especially with bitches, it's kindest to get them spayed ASAP after the first heat.

Pyrometria, phantom pregnancies, uterine cancer, are just some of the risks if you don't get her spayed.

I'll use them examples to make my case thanks

beardedmaster

davet82 wrote: »

i ran out to defend her honor but i have no idea if he finished the deed, so after some awkward questions from my daughter i took the proper precautions and took her to the vet for an injection which she has to return to finish tomorrow...

Your poor daughter! :pac:

Chuck Stone

davet82 wrote: »

after explaining ... it was the little gurrier jack russell from down the road, she reluctantly agreed...

Well lah-de-dah. A lowly JRT is not good enough Mrs. Precious Pooch. Goodness me no. An Irish Kennel Club Cavalier King Charles Spaniel on the other hand?

:pac:

mosi

You say it's her first heat? Definitely have her spayed as soon as your vet gives the ok to do so.Being spayed before either the first or second heats greatly reduces her chances of getting mammary cancer.

Outkast_IRE

davet82 wrote: »

did you find your dog put on lots of weight, my mothers dog got fixed and the poor thing ballooned in size could this be a side effect or is she just being too generous with the portions?

i know its the politically correct thing to do but i wouldn't want to cause the dog any distress long term either

the vet reckoned it had health benefits too if i went ahead with it so i'm sure its the right thing to do...

that is just down to portion control, and what food you are feeding the dog, i feed a good quality food thats grain free so that helps alot, the dog was a bit heavier when being fed standard food with loads of wheat and maize in it.

I would always reccomend feeding the grain free foods like TOTW, Orjen, Lukullus etc.

kylith

davet82 wrote: »

did you find your dog put on lots of weight, my mothers dog got fixed and the poor thing ballooned in size could this be a side effect or is she just being too generous with the portions?

i know its the politically correct thing to do but i wouldn't want to cause the dog any distress long term either

the vet reckoned it had health benefits too if i went ahead with it so i'm sure its the right thing to do...

Both my dogs are spayed and neither are overweight. One of them actually lost weight after the operation. Weight is a case of calories in and calories out.

It is not cruel to get a bitch spayed. Various cancers, pyometra, phantom pregnancies, being constantly hounded by males, and you dropping a bunch of puppies off at the pound to be euthanised because no-one wants them - that's cruel.

It will not cause your bitch any harm to be spayed. She will not get depressed. She will not even notice. Dogs don't sit around planning families; once the operation is done and her hormones have settled down she won't know any different. Even if she did notice she'd probably call it a relief.

You're lucky that your daughter spotted her, and that the male was a small breed; if she'd been bred by a large dog she could have died trying to give birth to puppies too large for her.

Tranceypoo

Agree with the others, please get her spayed!

My female was done almost 2 years ago now and hasn't put on an ounce, she gets the correct measured amount of food and regular exercise, just like me...ahem...

davet82

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Well lah-de-dah. A lowly JRT is not good enough Mrs. Precious Pooch. Goodness me no. An Irish Kennel Club Cavalier King Charles Spaniel on the other hand?

:pac:

excuse me my dog is actually a king charles :pac:

i've nothing against JRTs but this little anckle snapper is out all times of day and night being a menace... i wouldn't expect him to make much of a father the little fecker has been hanging around my house for days


anyways i've made my case to make the OH to see sense but she done a little googling herself and found some website condeming the inhuman spaying of animals, apparently in Norway its illegal, I'll keep working on it but i think she is coming around.

Thanks for all the replies and info, will wait until after the second heat to get it done, I'm presuming a cost of a €100 should cover it?

Toulouse

If you do enough googling you'll always be able to find the answer that you want.

If your wife really wants honest answers then tell her to email a few people on the front line who deal with the fall out of irresponsible pet owners and breeders every day. http://www.irishanimals.ie/general/index.html

These people have the highest regard for animal welfare and I doubt you will find one that will tell her that neutering is cruel or inhumane. Bringing more unwanted pups into a country with massive over-production problems, now that is inhumane.

Get her down to the vet for the injection and then get her spayed. Don't wait until after her second heat, you've already been caught out once.

Tranceypoo

I think the reason it's illegal in Norway (is it really?) and I know in Sweden it's not really the 'done thing' (although I don't know if it's illegal), is because they have a completely different attitude to dog/animal welfare and actual proper welfare laws THAT ARE REINFORCED, so it's not necessary, people don't let their dogs out to wander the streets (like your JRT friend), people don't dump unwanted litters in ditches and then still let their dog have yet another litter, people don't treat dogs like disposable items and take them to the pound when they have a baby or get a new sofa (and I'm not even kidding), in these countries I believe your dog has to be leashed, registered etc and if you break those laws there's consequences (unlike here) and people just don't do it there.

So, if your OH wants to do some research I would suggest she/he doesn't compare apples with oranges, which is what he/she is doing by comparing Ireland with Norway when it comes to dog welfare. Google Ireland specifically when it comes to dog welfare (or lack thereof) and he/she and you will see what a terrible, shameful and frankly disgusting record we have here of putting dogs to sleep every year because so many people don't get their dog spayed/neutered, let their dog roam/wander, got a cute puppy which then got bigger (oh I didn't realise it was going to get bigger) and started chewing and barking and toileting everywhere (oh I didn't realise I would have to take it outside and walk it AND feed it? Really?!!)

Honestly, the argument that it's 'cruel' and even worse that every female should have a litter is from the dark ages, being pro-life means you believe that every human has a right to life surely? How on earth does it equate with dogs? I don't get that logic?

davet82

Toulouse wrote: »

If you do enough googling you'll always be able to find the answer that you want.

If your wife really wants honest answers then tell her to email a few people on the front line who deal with the fall out of irresponsible pet owners and breeders every day. http://www.irishanimals.ie/general/index.html

These people have the highest regard for animal welfare and I doubt you will find one that will tell her that neutering is cruel or inhumane. Bringing more unwanted pups into a country with massive over-production problems, now that is inhumane.

Get her down to the vet for the injection and then get her spayed. Don't wait until after her second heat, you've already been caught out once.

Thats a good idea, I'll check that out and set the missus straight...

and you're right, i'll book her in tonight when she goes back for her second injection no point putting it off

davet82

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Honestly, the argument that it's 'cruel' and even worse that every female should have a litter is from the dark ages, being pro-life means you believe that every human has a right to life surely? How on earth does it equate with dogs? I don't get that logic?

I know it makes no sense but i get where she is coming from even though i totally dont agree, my OH loves dogs, she sees them has having the same rights as humans, i guess she feels the dog has feelings like us and also she probably wants to try keep the puppies! :P

The pro-life thing was more me making light of the subject but she does think she is being robbed of motherhood which is silly as its obviously instinct only.

And idk who started a dog has to have at least one litter or its not good for her rumor/myth, i could kick them in the shins right now

ISDW

Well done for being so responsible.

maybe also google bitch dying having pups, there are some real horror stories out there about people losing their beloved dogs while going through the whelping process, its one reason that I have never bred, I couldn't take the chance.

it really is a very sad fact that the pounds and rescues in Ireland are all full to the brim, including KC registered pedigree dogs, of breeds that you really wouldn't expect to see dumped or straying. So, finding homes for pups is very, very hard now, unless they come from exceptional breeders who have waiting lists.

I hope your daughter wasn't too traumatised

ShaShaBear

Also mention to her how lucky your doggie was that it was only an ickle JRT that got to her first. Could have been a bigger dog, and the pups would be absolute agony for her to give birth to. Plus, they would be mongrels - no selling those if you have any sense! So you could be stuck with a litter of pups, lets say 4. She won't have them for a good while yet, so you can forget about pawning them off on people as Christmas presents. So, how do you propose you rehome 4 pups? Say no-one you know wants one. Do you put an ad on DoneDeal and let your "pro-life" missus assume they wont be bred to death or left in a tiny garden all day howling and crying for attention? Do you take them to a no-kill shelter and abandon them, assuming they will get a home and not be left in a metal run for the next year or two? Or do you keep all four of them, don't get them spayed either, and then let them breed amongst themselves?

There's some very commonly-occuring issues for your missus to think about :rolleyes:
You're doing the right thing!

kylith

davet82 wrote: »

I know it makes no sense but i get where she is coming from even though i totally dont agree, my OH loves dogs, she sees them has having the same rights as humans, i guess she feels the dog has feelings like us and also she probably wants to try keep the puppies! :P

She needs to disabuse herself of that anthropomorphisation, dogs don't think like us, they don't make a decision to have a family; their hormones kick in and say 'do this', so they do it, they don't even know how they get pregnant, for goodness sake!

You said that the JRT was hanging around your house? That'll happen every time she comes into heat, with every male dog within sniffing distance. It'll happen every time you take her for a walk while she's in heat. Every male for a couple of miles around, for a couple of weeks, every six months. Does your wife think your dog will enjoy being chased like that? Would your wife be comfortable walking her while being pursued by males?

We didn't get my childhood dog neutered until she'd had her third litter, we should have gotten it done sooner but my dad thought she was safe in the garden. Unfortunately males kept climbing the six foot gate to get to her. That's 12 puppies we had to find homes for, and it wasn't easy, even in the 80s. My dad resorted to threatening to drown the pups in order to guilt family members into to taking them.

Take your wife to your local SPCA. Talk to them about how many pups they get in a year: how many are 'accidental' litters that couldn't find homes, how many are people deciding that the pup they got on a whim isn't that cute after a couple of weeks of chewing everything and weeing on the carpet, and how many just appear at the gate. Ask your wife if she would be happy for the puppies to wind up there, or in the pound, or just thrown onto the street, or left in a ditch, or sold on to who knows who knows what end.

gozunda

davet82 wrote: »

My dog who is 9 months and is heat for the first time somehow manage to escape, i have no idea how she squeezed out the side gate but to my horror my 9 year old came into to tell me that she had got out and there was a dog jumping on her back!

i ran out to defend her honor but i have no idea if he finished the deed, so after some awkward questions from my daughter i took the proper precautions and took her to the vet for an injection which she has to return to finish tomorrow...

anyways my OH is pro-life and i had no idea that this view extended to the animal kingdom and wasn't happy (i know!) anyways after explaining it was like the morning after pill and it was the little gurrier jack russell from down the road, she reluctantly agreed...

so while i was there i decided to book her in to get 'fixed' now the OH is horrified, she thinks its cruel and that she deserves to have a litter and i'd be robbing her of that...

So is it cruel? Do dogs pine to breed? Is there any side effects?

Is the dog religious or pro life herself? Seriously Dogs do not pine to breed. Having her fixed reduces her chances of mammary problems. It also reduces the issue of unwanted litters. The dog is much less likely to wander and will not go into heat and not have the best(!) 7 dogs in the neighbourhood queuing up to have a go....

fifib

similar thing happened to us, she was all booked to go in for spaying op on a tuesday. friday before she goes into heat..3 weeks of torture, cannot walk her or nothing. I actually had to carry her home one day while 3 dogs were jumping out of the two of us to get at her! 1 little randy so and so actually opened the gate and tried to eat his way through front door to get her!

Anyways we got caught one sunday morning, let her out for wee's and 2 secs later a dog in garden with her. we rang vet and they mentioned the morning after pill but said its very severe and recommended we spay her as soon as her heat is over and they would abort any pups if they were any. we went with this option and thankfully there were no pups to abort...or so they told us anyways!

I was 50-50 on getting her spayed to begin with but after 3 long weeks of torture for us and torture for her...she was so down them few weeks not being allowed outside and having every tom, dick and harry trying to jump her when she was allowed out!

ncmc

I actually spayed my bitch before she even had her first heat. I just didn’t want to take the risk of her escaping and getting knocked up or knocked over. They can be pretty determined when they are in heat as you found out, and the local males are even more persistent! Look what your dog did while in heat, she escaped from your garden, she could have been knocked over and killed.

People will argue that you should let your bitch have one heat before neutering, but I have also heard that doing it before the first heat is the best way to minimise mammary cancer. My vet also recommended getting her spayed before her first heat. Certainly the advice about letting have one litter is an old wives tale from the research I did.

I’m glad I did it, I never wanted to breed her and I wanted to give her the best possible chance of a life time of good health. I have never noticed any side effects or phantom pregnancies that some people cite as reasons to allow them to have a litter first. She also never put on weight, I control what she eats and she gets plenty of exercise, just like humans, it’s all science, if you feed them more than they burn off then they’ll put on weight!

I mean this in the best possible way, but your wife is being a bit silly. Dogs aren’t like humans; they don’t make family planning decisions! Your doggie will be much happier being spayed and you are doing the best thing possible for her health. Do it now before it slips your mind and you put it off. You’re lucky your daughter saw what was going on, you could have been stuck with a CKC/JRT litter of puppies (which do sound like a cute mix in fairness!) but are more hassle than they are worth. You’re doing the right thing!

DaisyD2

ncmc wrote: »

I actually spayed my bitch before she even had her first heat. I just didn’t want to take the risk of her escaping and getting knocked up or knocked over. They can be pretty determined when they are in heat as you found out, and the local males are even more persistent! Look what your dog did while in heat, she escaped from your garden, she could have been knocked over and killed.

You’re doing the right thing!

Likewise I did the research & spoke to vet on my Daisys first Puppy visit. She was 11weeks & a 1lb Yorkie when I got her - there was no way I was running the risk of pregnancy! They get covered so quickly & at time my mothers dog wasn't neutered. Vet agreed to do it at 6mths & had her microchipped at same time. She came through flying ..... so much so she knocked out her kneecap whilst recouperating & had to have 2nd surgery 6wks later!

My parents thought I was mad getting her spayed so young (or at all!) but within 12mths between running away & finally getting hit by a car they overcame any preconceptions & got their dog neutered too. Hes a much calmer fella now (no more running away!) but his personality hasn't changed otherwise much to Mums relief.

Less headaches & heartaches for all getting it done!

DBB

OP, does your missus eat meat? Or drink milk? Or wear leather shoes or jackets?
Your answers to these questions may well determine how pro-reproductive-rights your wife actually is!

Mollywolly

OP, as you have a King Charles Cavalier, I would seriously think about getting her spayed to avoid the risk of Pyrometra later.

I never got our Cavvie spayed and she developed Pyrometra. She was one of the lucky ones though because our vet acted quickly and performed a hysterectomy straight away. Without that, my Molly wouldn't be here.

Cavvies are one of the dogs most at risk - read this - so IMHO I think you should give it very careful consideration. I would hate for anyone else to have to go through what I went through with Molly

Pal

we just got a pup and my wife wants him neutered. The vet described the procedure to me. sounds horrific. Am I being cruel to go ahead and do this ? genuine question. Feels cruel to me. I do understand the dog overpopulation problem that my city has.

ISDW

Pal wrote: »

we just got a pup and my wife wants him neutered. The vet described the procedure to me. sounds horrific. Am I being cruel to go ahead and do this ? genuine question. Feels cruel to me. I do understand the dog overpopulation problem that my city has.

what part sounds horrific? its a very simple op in a male, the problem I've always had is keeping them quiet afterwards so that they don't split their stitches. never had any male dogs be bothered by it.

ShaShaBear

Same as, my boy woke up afterwards and the first thing he tried to do was run to the door to meet the postman, didn't take a fidge out of him. I did work experience as a vet nurse and have seen the surgery - nothing horrific about it! Seen a vet do it in 5 minutes, the most detailed and careful part of the surgery was shaving his cahonies beforehand :rolleyes:

fatmammycat

Pal wrote: »

we just got a pup and my wife wants him neutered. The vet described the procedure to me. sounds horrific. Am I being cruel to go ahead and do this ? genuine question. Feels cruel to me. I do understand the dog overpopulation problem that my city has.

What type of dog is it? If it's a large breed dog, I'd wait until he was grown before I'd consider it- depending of course if you can confine your dog safely at all times ( my garden is walled, my own dog goes nowhere unless I or the OH are with him).

Ms Tootsie

Hi Pal. It isn't cruel at all. We got our guy done and the only cruel thing was seeing his big brown eyes staring up at us everytime we put the cone of shame on him! We knew it was for his own good though

As he is only a pup I would strongely suggest waiting until he is over the age of 5 months before getting him neutered. I know from other posts you just have him so he might be a bit on the young side yet.

Waiting longer than that you run the risk of developing 'humping' habits which tend to stay even after the bits are gone! He might also be a tad more on the aggressive side as well if you wait a long time.

kylith

Pal wrote: »

we just got a pup and my wife wants him neutered. The vet described the procedure to me. sounds horrific. Am I being cruel to go ahead and do this ? genuine question. Feels cruel to me. I do understand the dog overpopulation problem that my city has.

It only sounds horrific to you because you have the capacity to understand it, the dog doesn't. Hell, an appendectomy sounds horrific, but you'd have it done if necessary.

Remember that the dog will be anaesthatised while it happens. When he wakes up all he'll know is that he's a bit sore. He won't be wondering where his testicles are gone, he doesn't even know he has testicles. He certainly won't bemoan the fact that he can't father puppies.

Some of the stories of what dogs have done to get to bitches in heat are unbelievable. I've heard of dogs climbing walls to get out and travelling miles, I've even heard of dogs breaking windows! Then there's the fighting with other entire males, the desire to roam and the associated dangers, and the tendency to hump everything, not to mention the risk of testicular cancer.

So yeah, if protecting your dog from illness, wandering and getting run over, getting injured in fights, and removing the frustration of being around sexy females but never ever being allowed to touch them is cruel, then I guess neutering is cruel.

Pal

Thanks. I didn't understand. That's all.

davet82

ok well went to get the second injection the next day (i hope she enjoyed her bit of fun cause cost me a few quid!) so its most likely there should be no surprises. The OH came in with me this time, as me and my internet friends obviously didnt know what we where talking about... anyways while waiting to be seen and talking to other dog owners who have had their dogs fixed gave there accounts of why its best to get it done but unbelievably the myth of its good for them to have one litter was still doing the rounds by other dog owners!?!?

so we went in and i have to say you guys are very well informed here, the vet gave all the reasons on why it would be best to get her spayed. He didnt really go down the over population of dogs but mentioned it, he went at the angle of, you clearly love your dog (which she does in all fairness, the dog gets same consideration as our kids! ) you will do this for the health benefits and to cut any risks she'll encore during pregnancy and the torment to us and the dog herself which in turn made the OH feel more comfortable that we were helping the dog and doing whats in her best interest.

So all has eneded well although the vet wont do the operation til february, i think because of the injections she recieved... the little JRT is still howling outside our house day and night and now has competition from a yorkshire terrior and are constantly battling each other on my door step for the last few days, who leaves there dogs out alone like this for this length of time unsupervised idk...


Anyways big thank you for all that took the time out to reply and helped me argue my case, we got there in the end

ISDW

The reason the op won't be done until February is to give the uterus time to settle down again, when a dog is in season, it is very bloody in there, and the vet may miss a bit

Tranceypoo

That's brilliant news OP, really wish more dog owners were like you and not like the owners of those dogs who are out all night howling at your door!!

magicherbs

I still believe it's deeply regrettable that people come into ownership of animals and are completely ignorant of the care required to look after them.

Both my pets, a Greyhound and a Westie were spayed. The Greyhound didn't put on any weight, but the Westie did! It was very hard to get her portions right. She had had 2 litters, whether that makes a difference?

Cork24

If you leave the dog go in and out of heat she can develop cancer in male dogs cancer is higher then female. dog neutering is a must for male if you are not going to breed.