Hepatic recipes for dogs? Urgent advice needed.

Bannasidhe

As of today I am long-term fostering a corgi X JRT 7 month old pup whose liver is not functional. According to vets it isn't even connected and it is a miracle he is alive. One vet gave him max 2 years while another vet said with the right diet and care he could live a long life. Obviously I am aiming for the latter.

The rescue I got him from gave me Royal Canin hepetic dried food - this stuff http://www.nationalpetpharmacy.com/product/6104/Royal-Canin-Veterinary-Diet-Hepatic-Formula-Dry-Dog-Food- but I was wondering if anyone has any tried and trusted recipes for meals I could make up for him to provide a bit of variety? I am also not a fan of processed mass produced foods for dogs.

I am learning about his needs as I go along so all advice appreciated and if those who have experience of this kind of condition think I should leave well enough alone I will of course do so but as I understand it from a few hours research on the web he can have cottage cheese, tofu, boiled potato, egg white and sometimes some chicken but I am confused by all the talk of supplements and vitamins and need some advice in clear, laymans terms.

Another thing we noticed is that his testicles don't seem to have dropped yet... Up until now I have always had bitches so not very experienced with dogs but I imagine by 7 months they should be 'there'.

Stheno

You could try a couple of different options, UCD veterinary have nutritionists who could help you develop a home based diet.

Not sure about adapting a raw diet for him, so can't help you on that.

Then you could stay on the commercial stuff which is probably the "easiest" option.

On the testicles, they can take a while to drop, and if he's had health problems to date his development might be a little delayed, I'd not be too worried, but would keep an eye to be sure they are not retained (I think that's the word, basically that they are there, but stuck and won't drop) there is a more "proper term" that I can't remember.

Well done for taking the little chap on, and very best of luck with him

Bannasidhe

Stheno wrote: »

You could try a couple of different options, UCD veterinary have nutritionists who could help you develop a home based diet.

Not sure about adapting a raw diet for him, so can't help you on that.

Then you could stay on the commercial stuff which is probably the "easiest" option.

On the testicles, they can take a while to drop, and if he's had health problems to date his development might be a little delayed, I'd not be too worried, but would keep an eye to be sure they are not retained (I think that's the word, basically that they are there, but stuck and won't drop) there is a more "proper term" that I can't remember.

Well done for taking the little chap on, and very best of luck with him

Do you know if it possible for me to just email UCD and if there is a charge?

Yeah, the commercial stuff would be the easiest but not a fan of the stuff and would prefer if I could give him non-processed food even if it as a 'treat' once in a while.

DBB

Stheno wrote: »

I'd not be too worried, but would keep an eye to be sure they are not retained (I think that's the word, basically that they are there, but stuck and won't drop) there is a more "proper term" that I can't remember.

Cryptorchidism!

His little nuts should be quite easily visually discerned now OP, although you could have a little gentle root to see can you feel them. I *think* I remember being told that if they're not down by 6 months, chances are they're not coming, and if they're retained, they gotta come out. But! Can this little fella go through an operation at all?

But all that aside... what a poor little fella ! Is this a very rare condition? It's a new one on me!
Definitely have a good chat to those who know about diet in relation to health issues: I know when my old GSD was diagnosed with liver cancer, the vet's advice was to feed a diet which gave her liver as little to do as possible, which meant switching her to a modified raw diet (I've been feeding all my dogs raw since), but at the same time, she was still able to eat red meat. Eggs were out, as were bones, or any fatty, or highly processed foods. Dogs First may be able to give you some direction on the diet, or vet Tom Farrington down in West Cork is who advised me on my old GSD.

Anyway, keep us posted on how he gets on, won't you? Fair play to you for fostering him and giving him a shot at life! I'll be keeping everything crossed for the little man

Stheno

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you know if it possible for me to just email UCD and if there is a charge?

Yeah, the commercial stuff would be the easiest but not a fan of the stuff and would prefer if I could give him non-processed food even if it as a 'treat' once in a while.

No my experience of them is that you've to make an appointment and they do up a diet sheet, there is a charge for it, I don't remember what it was to be honest.

I did it with a dog who had iirc suspected Cushings

You could try seeing if you could do it remotely and not have to do the trip?

Have you done a search of the different BARF groups to see if any of them have dogs with liver failure even? Or searched for liver failure dogs? Sometimes you'd be surprised the amount of specialist groups that are out there. Has anyone suggested supplementing his diet with milk thistle? That helps liver function improve, not sure if it would work in this case though.

Also you're in Cork, give Tom Farrington a shout, one of the nicest vets I've had the pleasure to deal with

Edit: Thanks DBB, I knew it was something to do with orchids!

Bannasidhe

DBB wrote: »

Cryptorchidism!

His little nuts should be quite easily visually discerned now OP, although you could have a little gentle root to see can you feel them. I *think* I remember being told that if they're not down by 6 months, chances are they're not coming, and if they're retained, they gotta come out. But! Can this little fella go through an operation at all?

But all that aside... what a poor little fella ! Is this a very rare condition? It's a new one on me!
Definitely have a good chat to those who know about diet in relation to health issues: I know when my old GSD was diagnosed with liver cancer, the vet's advice was to feed a diet which gave her liver as little to do as possible, which meant switching her to a modified raw diet (I've been feeding all my dogs raw since), but at the same time, she was still able to eat red meat. Eggs were out, as were bones, or any fatty, or highly processed foods. Dogs First may be able to give you some direction on the diet, or vet Tom Farrington down in West Cork is who advised me on my old GSD.

Anyway, keep us posted on how he gets on, won't you? Fair play to you for fostering him and giving him a shot at life! I'll be keeping everything crossed for the little man

No testicles that I can detect. Will take him to the my own vet who I trust implicitly and see what he says. The refuge have set up at an account at the
vets he was first taken to for me to use but...I dunno...they want him to be kept on antibiotics all the time but I agree with the refuge people (and their vet in West Cork) that that is not a good idea as he will develop
an immunity to them so they won't work when he really does need them. They also gave him 2 years max but West Cork vet (don't know who it is ) said with care he could have a full life.

His condition is a new one to everyone. Basically his owner couldn't cope (he was a very sick puppy) and brought him to a vet to pts - vet called a refuge who took him but had never encountered this condition either and although he was very sick the refuge people worked wonders with him but tbh but are overwhelmed with rescue animals and a busy refuge is no place for a dog with a chronic condition.

I just want to give the little guy the best shot at a full life that I can...

Here he is - his name is Scooby.

Bannasidhe

Stheno wrote: »

No my experience of them is that you've to make an appointment and they do up a diet sheet, there is a charge for it, I don't remember what it was to be honest.

I did it with a dog who had iirc suspected Cushings

You could try seeing if you could do it remotely and not have to do the trip?

Have you done a search of the different BARF groups to see if any of them have dogs with liver failure even? Or searched for liver failure dogs? Sometimes you'd be surprised the amount of specialist groups that are out there. Has anyone suggested supplementing his diet with milk thistle? That helps liver function improve, not sure if it would work in this case though.

Also you're in Cork, give Tom Farrington a shout, one of the nicest vets I've had the pleasure to deal with

Edit: Thanks DBB, I knew it was something to do with orchids!

BARF groups?
Sorry - am new to this - not dog ownership had dogs all my life but they were all pretty healthy.

Stheno

Bannasidhe wrote: »

BARF groups?
Sorry - am new to this - not dog ownership had dogs all my life but they were all pretty healthy.

Excuse me

BARF is what Raw used to be called, there was an excellent discussion group on yahoo which covered all sorts of ailments, I was a member there, I can have a look for you if you wish?

BARF = Bones and Raw food

Bannasidhe

Stheno wrote: »

Excuse me

BARF is what Raw used to be called, there was an excellent discussion group on yahoo which covered all sorts of ailments, I was a member there, I can have a look for you if you wish?

That would be great! Really appreciate it.

Bannasidhe

OK - good news I think, I 'found' his testicles. Tiny but there. I assume this is a good sign...!

Now I wish all my 30 odd years of experience wasn't with bitches....:o

Stheno

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That would be great! Really appreciate it.

No problem, I've a few of them, and I'll have to filter out the dross, so give me a day or so?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

OK - good news I think, I 'found' his testicles. Tiny but there. I assume this is a good sign...!

Now I wish all my 30 odd years of experience wasn't with bitches....:o

That is a good sign, are they under the skin or can you distinctly feel them?

DBB

I'm so glad I'd just finished a cup of tea before I saw that 2nd photo of Scooby... I'd have sprayed my laptop with it! What a hilarious photo!:D
He seems to be a great little character.
Some other things that Tom Farrington specifically told me to include in my old GSD's diet were carrots and dark green veg. And as Stheno said, milk thistle. He felt that slightly cooked meat would be a little easier, perhaps because more palatable, he recommended making a very lightly cooked stew of meat, pureed carrots and dark greens.

Bannasidhe

Stheno wrote: »

No problem, I've a few of them, and I'll have to filter out the dross, so give me a day or so?



That is a good sign, are they under the skin or can you distinctly feel them?

Can feel them but they are not very prominent. My son couldn't find them at all but I had a feel there while Scooby was balmed out on his back next to me and they are there, I could feel two distinct shapes without much effort and he didn't react which I imagine he would if I had to go poking around as it were.

Stheno - I really appreciate you taking the time. You are a Star Bar.

Bannasidhe

DBB wrote: »

I'm so glad I'd just finished a cup of tea before I saw that 2nd photo of Scooby... I'd have sprayed my laptop with it! What a hilarious photo!:D
He seems to be a great little character.
Some other things that Tom Farrington specifically told me to include in my old GSD's diet were carrots and dark green veg. And as Stheno said, milk thistle. He felt that slightly cooked meat would be a little easier, perhaps because more palatable, he recommended making a very lightly cooked stew of meat, pureed carrots and dark greens.

Refuge people did say no protein and when I specifically asked about bones - especially for his teeth - said they thought it best not to. Internet Sites I have read have said I can give him chicken and one said minced meat as long as the fat is drained off. Apparently I can give him tofu, cottage cheese, rice and boiled spuds which being carbs I can understand but then some say add meat fat/chicken/egg white/mince which is all protein - You can see why I am so



To add to my household doggy drama my poor JRT's are disgusted at the sudden disappearance of the stonking great raw bones I bought them in the butchers yesterday and are giving me the evil eye.

Stheno

Just a quick trawl has seen a lot of recommendations for Monica Segal who is a canine nutritionist.

Now all of the trawl is related to liver failure, not a missing liver, so please take that on board.

This might be a good starting point for information? The diet posted to support/reverse failing livers has been developed in conjunction with Jean Dodds who has a fairly good reputation in the veterinary world

The BARF/Raw groups so far seem to be more focussed on the effects of the likes of Metacam and Rimadyl on liver failure.

Stheno

The best group I've found for you is http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/DogHealth/

There are a fair few topics there relating to liver failure and diet.

The BARF groups didn't have much, and my other groups were related to GSDs and pancreatitis

Hope you find some of the links helpful, the first one in my last post is probably one of the most helpful

Don't be afraid to ask the rescue group if you can liaise with their vet, could help you a lot

Bannasidhe

Stheno. Thank so so much. I have some reading to do I see.
On a happy note Scooby is currently engaged in a full on game of tug of war with one of the JRTs over possession of a toy giraffe.

Stheno

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Stheno. Thank so so much. I have some reading to do I see.
On a happy note Scooby is currently engaged in a full on game of tug of war with one of the JRTs over possession of a toy giraffe.

No problem at all, it's a pain in the ass here if you get a dog who has a rare, let alone non existent condition as the vet community can struggle, I've had a few arguments over the years with vets including one legendary scrap in UCD with a complete gob****e who informed me my (later to be diagnosed with EPI and severe allergies) dog had mange, and labelled the dog dangerous!

On top of what I've given you, check out Dr. Jean Dodds, she is renowned for responding to email queries, so might be of great help to you.

And as well, one thing I've always done (as I've always tended to have a few cripples in my group of dogs) is to let them be normal.

Don't mollycoddle any more than you have to, let them just be dogs

DBB

Jean Dodds is super, she's a vet with behavioural expertise and does a lot of writing about medical interactions with behaviour, the activity of the thyroid gland being one she's well known for.
Anyway, definitely give her a shot. There's another girl in the UK, a canine nutritionist, whose name is gone out of my head but I'll dig it out for you. My hunch is that he's going to have to have some protein, but how to go about getting this into him safely is one to talk to the experts about.

Stheno

DBB wrote: »

Jean Dodds is super, she's a vet with behavioural expertise and does a lot of writing about medical interactions with behaviour, the activity of the thyroid gland being one she's well known for.
Anyway, definitely give her a shot. There's another girl in the UK, a canine nutritionist, whose name is gone out of my head but I'll dig it out for you. My hunch is that he's going to have to have some protein, but how to go about getting this into him safely is one to talk to the experts about.

IIRC Jean Dodds was the vet who diagnosed behavioural difficulties caused by health issues, I'd a friend with a wolfhound who lived due to her

Was severe thyroid issues not picked up on normal tests.

I'll never forget the email from my friend telling me they'd found a health related issue causing the behaviour.

Strange how years of rescue work give you such information

Edit: What DBB said but a personal story, without Jean Dodds and her work that dog was dead.

Bannasidhe

After a bit of research it would appear that little Scooby has the following

Portal Vascular Abnormalities

Usually occurs when a portal-systemic shunt allows blood to pass from the digestive tract directly into the general circulation without being detoxified by the liver first. Usually a congenital defect restricted to young dogs and puppies, but can be the result of hepatic cirrhosis. Symptoms are never consistent, but many dogs are young, malnourished, chronically sick, poorly tolerant of toxins, drugs, and anesthetics, and tending to eat strange items (pica). Diagnosis is based on physical exam, history, laboratory tests, and specialized X-rays showing blood flow through the liver. Treatment is surgical correction of the circulatory abnormality to force the blood into the liver prior to it entering the general circulation.

http://canineliverdiseasefoundation.org/?cat=8

This certainly sounds like what the original vet described to the Refuge. Will be taking him to my own vet to confirm diagnosis and see if surgery is a viable option and possible in Ireland then starts the saving every cent we can get our hands on.

boomerang

It's much harder to home-cook for a dog with liver issues than it is with say a dog with kidney disease, or diabetes. For instance, the diet has to be high in soluble fibre (think porridge oats) easily digestible (e.g. using white rice or spuds) very low in copper, low in salt and with zinc and some of the water soluble vitamins added. I think animal protein has to be limited. This all makes it tricky to create recipes that are safe and well-balanced.

I'd actually be inclined to go with one of the commercial, prescription diets. That said, let me see what I can dig out for you.

(You are wonderful, by the way!)

Bannasidhe

boomerang wrote: »

It's much harder to home-cook for a dog with liver issues than it is with say a dog with kidney disease, or diabetes. For instance, the diet has to be high in soluble fibre (think porridge oats) easily digestible (e.g. using white rice or spuds) very low in copper, low in salt and with zinc and some of the water soluble vitamins added. I think animal protein has to be limited. This all makes it tricky to create recipes that are safe and well-balanced.

I'd actually be inclined to go with one of the commercial, prescription diets. That said, let me see what I can dig out for you.

(You are wonderful, by the way!)

Thank you for your kind words Boomerang - doubt I'm wonderful, I just prefer dogs to people.

Made him up 100g of rice with carrot and broccoli and blended it with just a tea spoon of animal fats and fish oil (for his essential fatty/amino acids and omega 3) and have been giving him a desert spoon of this with the commercial stuff. He loves it! No salt - I rarely if ever use salt anyway.

For 'treats' he gets a raw carrot stick which he mangles (have to give 'treats' or my JRTs would go into open revolt and sulk like only JRTs can).

I was wondering about porridge - I assume I should make it with water?

Have been advised by a nurse friend (humans not animals) that Vit. E is good for liver function - need to do more research on this. Will also look at zinc and water soluble vitamins - are there any ones in particular I should get?

Ironically I am diabetic so have a high protein/low carb diet so between us both we have a meal - I get the meat, he gets the spuds/rice we can bicker over the veg.

boomerang

Thought I had more links to resources for liver-friendly diets, but at least my favourite website has come up trumps, as usual! Have a look!

http://www.dogaware.com/health/liver.html

Bannasidhe

boomerang wrote: »

Thought I had more links to resources for liver-friendly diets, but at least my favourite website has come up trumps, as usual! Have a look!

http://www.dogaware.com/health/liver.html

That is bloody brilliant!!! Thank you so much boomerang.

All the other sites I found dealt more with liver disease rather than a liver shunt which Scooby has been diagnosed with (as I said I will be getting a second opinion just to confirm this is the case).

Am now off to investigate low purine foods...