Accepting failure

LegacyUser

Just a bit of background first;
I am a 40 year old male and I've been in my current career for about five years now. I didn't go to college after school, instead I worked in the family business until I was 28 and upped and left to go to college and get a degree in software development.
I got my degree in one of the lesser prestigious Institutes of Technologies and I (only) got a 2.2. I'm under no illusions about my academic abilities; I'm no Mark Zuckerburg, I managed to achieve what I did through doggedness more than natural ability. Not everyone has that I know so I should be proud I suppose. Trouble is I'm not; I feel like a failure because I didn't get to where I wanted in my career despite the massive sacrifices I have made. I worked in a couple of kind of tech support jobs before this but I always wanted to be a software developer. Not out of ego or anything but I just felt I had to prove it to myself that I could work in this area.
Ther are easier jobs out there I know but I wanted to challenge myself because I had taken the easy way out when I was young.
I am now working as a software developer but not with a well-known company and my salary is 25k. The job is a bit of a joke really; there's just me and one other person in the "company" and there is no possibilty of a pay rise. We are barely keeping our head above water. I do like the job (most of the time anyway) and I am committed and just want to do my best.
I should qualify all this by saying that I am not or never have worked in Dublin. This is because I want to stay in my current city (clue; it's one of either Limerick or Cork) because, well I just want to and I hate the thought of living in Dublin.
I know I would probably get a better paid job there as it seems that 75% of IT jobs in the country are based in Dublin but it's just my choice.
The job I have is not easy though. I have to do some difficult stuff and I have responsibilty for an application that has been rolled out to two corporate clients (installed in over 2000 PC's in total). And of couse there is nobody to ask if I need help (only my friend google)
I only really got the job because I had been out of work for six months before that so my boss got a tax break by employing me instead of a recent graduate or someone from another job. The interview was fairly easy as my boss knows nothing about software development. I've been going to loads of interviews since I got this job two years ago in the hope of getting a better job but I always go down on the technical side of things.
I have never got a "top" job; I want to get a good job on my own merits, not because nobody else wanted it or my boss didn't want to give it to them.
I am always looking at Linkedin seeing the top guys who graduated with me and they are all working for good companies in Dublin. I know I am not as good as them and maybe never will be. I just have trouble accepting it I suppose. I am also comparing myself with the very best all the time which is not wise. "Why can't I be as good as them?" I ask myself. It eats me up inside, I think about it in bed at night,when I am out socially, watching TV or whatever.
But my two best mates in my year didn't finish the degree despite getting better results than me all the way through.
I know not everyone can be the best in their chosen field; if that were the case every footballer in the world would be as good as Lionel Messi.
At the heart of it all is an overwhelming desire to punish myself for a misspent youth.
I was lazy, I took the easy option by working at home instead of going out into the world. I didn't want responsibilty; I was a coward and hate myself for it. I wish I could go back in time and give my younger self a good slapping.
This self-punishment stops me from enjoying myself. Sometimes when I get an idea to do something I might actually enjoy, I say to myself "but remember the time when you were 25 that you did that wrong thing instead of the right thing" and I decide to stay at home and work at something or prepare for yet another interview.
I've haven't taken a holiday since I was 28, nor have I had a girlfriend or many friends.
I want to stop this mental torture of myself, I really do but I've got so locked into it it's almost impossible. My mother asks me "Have you anything good to say about yourself ever?"
Well no is the short answer. I wish I could remember how to enjoy myself, visit another country or something.
Don't even know why I posted this to be honest, it feels self-indulgent.

up for anything

I know the feeling as I always accepted life's easy track and it's gotten me to the bottom of the heap. However, I don't feel bad about it because I like who I am now and I wouldn't be this person if I'd picked the road not taken. You have and have had a lot of pluses in your life - accept them and be proud of them. It's time to stop torturing yourself for no reason at all and begin to really live your life.

skyfall2012

It sounds like you might be your own worst enemy. From what you have written it sounds like you have achieved a lot. It sounds to me like you are not selling yourself on your C.V. and I would suggest you go to a professional either a good recruiter can advise you on this or a career coach. You have no gaps in your C.V., you would have picked up skills at your families business and in your current job from what i can gather e.g. project managed, developed, leadership, rolled software out to a number of business, liaised with clients etc. These are the things employers want to see in your C.V; what projects you were involved in what skills you brought to the table and very importantly team work examples. Positive attitude. You got your degree as a mature student that is not easy. There is a banking crowd called JRI in Tralee looking for people and if you can get 90% on the betterprogrammer.com website exam, this is their main marker for giving someone a job and my guess is it is just practice. Good luck.

LegacyUser

skyfall2012 wrote: »

It sounds like you might be your own worst enemy. From what you have written it sounds like you have achieved a lot. It sounds to me like you are not selling yourself on your C.V. and I would suggest you go to a professional either a good recruiter can advise you on this or a career coach. You have no gaps in your C.V., you would have picked up skills at your families business and in your current job from what i can gather e.g. project managed, developed, leadership, rolled software out to a number of business, liaised with clients etc. These are the things employers want to see in your C.V; what projects you were involved in what skills you brought to the table and very importantly team work examples. Positive attitude. You got your degree as a mature student that is not easy. There is a banking crowd called JRI in Tralee looking for people and if you can get 90% on the betterprogrammer.com website exam, this is their main marker for giving someone a job and my guess is it is just practice. Good luck.

I wish you hadn't mentioned JRI; I went for an interview with them but didn't get it. They asked me how I would resolve a certain coding problem. I got rattled and couldn't answer it.I knew if I had time I could fix it but they don't want to give you time in an interview, they want you to come up with a solution straight away.
Your post brought it into my head so I had a sleepless night rolling that around in my head. Not your fault though, you are only trying to help. One thing you mentioned about gaps in my CV;I do actually have a few gaps as I spent a total of 18 months out of work (split into three sections) since I got my degree in 2007. So I've been working for 3 and a half years and out of work for 1 and a half.
I have been advised before to get professional coaching for interviews and I intend to do that in the new year. I will try that betterprogrammer website also. I am just sick of being so stupid. Every interview I fail at lowers my morale even more, it's just humiliation after humiliation.

skyfall2012

People usually have to go through a number of interviews before they get the job, they use the failed interviews as learning experiences and build on them. A professional will help you bridge the gaps in your C.V. and people love a trier/tryer, so you could always go back to JRI with betterprogrammer results of 90%. But if you are feeling really down and no attempts of yours help you out of that, maybe you should tell your GP how you are feeling. Best of luck.

Chronic Button

You need to practice self-acceptance. It is the only solution.

Every time the negative voice in your head criticises you, answer it back with a positive comment, even if you don't believe it. Example: You are such a fu**ing failure. Answer: I worked hard and achieved my goal of a degree and am successfully employed.

You need to start playing a positive track in your head. Make a long, detailed list of your positive points and refer to it daily.

You also need to allow yourself (give yourself permission) for treats, pleasure and enjoyment. You don't believe you deserve them, but you do. Start today. Doing this will send your brain a message that you are worthy and good enough.

Life is too short to live the way you do.

LegacyUser

skyfall2012 wrote: »

People usually have to go through a number of interviews before they get the job, they use the failed interviews as learning experiences and build on them. A professional will help you bridge the gaps in your C.V. and people love a trier/tryer, so you could always go back to JRI with betterprogrammer results of 90%. But if you are feeling really down and no attempts of yours help you out of that, maybe you should tell your GP how you are feeling. Best of luck.

I don't seem to have learnt from the interviews I've failed, that's the trouble. For a couple of them I've done an initial interview and been called back for a second one but haven't heard back. At this stage I just don't think I'm a very good programmer (I was always terrible at maths). I must know some stuff I suppose but I've solved most of my problems by persistance. I've become apathetic about it now anyway, I gave it my best shot and it didn't work. If I was going to get a better job I would have by now. I'm 40; it's hardly worth it at that age, I can't build a successful career at that age.
I've been to my GP,I'm on meds for depression with a few years (another reason to not like myself).

Taltos

OP - it is quite normal now to contact companies you have interviewed with and seek their help in understanding why you didn't get a call back.

At least this way you can learn if it is really down to your technical knowledge - which you can improve with practice and learning or is it down to how you come across (nerves) again something you can improve on.

There are also career coaches out there who can help you, just get some references first. Big thing for me is that the person I am interviewing is confident (not smug), professional and if they don't know the answer that they can at least give me structure on how they would find out the answer.

Another option is to contact some companies offering your services for say a week or two with a view to a formal interview. This gives them then the opportunity to see how you fit in with the team and to gauge your skills on the job so to speak.

Find someone you can practice your interviews with - ensure they have questions you don't know the answer to. Appearing fllustered is not good, making up a solution is not good, but saying "good question, I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head but to solve it I would first check XYZ..."

BraziliaNZ

Dublin is nice, sounds to me like you need to remove that chip from your shoulder and get a job in the big smoke b'y! No idea why you'd allow an irrational dislike of somewhere limit your opportunities.

LegacyUser

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Dublin is nice, sounds to me like you need to remove that chip from your shoulder and get a job in the big smoke b'y! No idea why you'd allow an irrational dislike of somewhere limit your opportunities.

It's my age really. At 40 I am thinking about buying my own place to live and I don't see myself living in Dublin. Also I am prone to depression when I am removed from my home city. In hindsight I should have taken a job in Dublin back in 2007 when I got my degree. I could have stayed for a year or two just to get experience.
Those guys from my graduation year that I've been looking enviously at on LinkedIn are all working in Dublin (and earning much more than me I am sure). They are much younger than me though. I am limiting what I am earning by staying down here but I just don't want to move.
I know it's a stupid attitude as everyone (especially in this recession) has to do things they don't want to in order to get a job.
I need to learn some extra stuff to "pass" interviews but that means doing it outside of work hours (swotting up on new technolgies etc.)
I am a bit disillusioned with myself at the moment, sometimes I think I am not cut out for programming and that I should go into a different area like networking or teaching IT.

castaway_lady

You're not giving yourself at all as much credit as you should be. Im often guilty of the same careerwise. You need to know too that a heck of a lot of people getting jobs and getting promotions are talking themselves up beyond what they're comfortable doing and then learn when they get the chance they talked themself into.
A friend of mine works in software development and they so often struggle to get staff in your region.

I agree that you should invest a couple of quid in a professional cv and some interview coaching then apply for lots jobs in the area you want to live in. Dublin isnt the mecca of the universe-no amount of money could move me up there. You seem to have grass is always greener syndrome.

40 is young careerwise these days too. Where I work we get a couple in that age bracket entering the profession every year. Think of the amount of people who go and get their degree from leaving cert be it one they wanted or settled for and hate what they end up in afterwards or go off and retrain in their 30s. These days career paths are far from stable in your 30s/40s, people move in and out of jobs to get to where they want to be. It sounds like you have plenty relevant experience that you're just underselling.

There's clearly a wider self esteem issue too but the career aspect of your life is something that is definitely not dead in the water. Dont hesitate, source a good recruitment agency and bring them your cv as it is and a list of every aspect of every job and training you've done.

Lola B

Hi OP,

I think your problem is your outlook on life. You happened to chose one of the only careers that actually has employment. My other half studied IT, but not software development specifically, and he is finding it hard to get a job. I would love if he was in your situation. I myself am currently studying computer science and I don't understand why you think things are so bad, what if you had studied architecture or engineering?

So basically I think your real problem is your outlook on life. You said you have depression, and you sound very depressed, so what about concentrating on that? Diet, exercise, counselling and socialising (like joining a club). This is how I avoid depression. I think the main causes of depression is living an unhealthy lifestyle, OP could you describe what your lifestyle is like? It doesn't sound like you enjoy life but you have decided that everything would be solved by a new career.

LegacyUser

Lola B wrote: »

So basically I think your real problem is your outlook on life. You said you have depression, and you sound very depressed, so what about concentrating on that? Diet, exercise, counselling and socialising (like joining a club). This is how I avoid depression. I think the main causes of depression is living an unhealthy lifestyle, OP could you describe what your lifestyle is like? It doesn't sound like you enjoy life but you have decided that everything would be solved by a new career.

I am not too depressed at the moment; I have been before to the point where I couldn't sleep or work properly. I needed sleeping tablets for a couple of years to get to sleep but managed to beat that.
I have a healthy enough lifestyle; I keep fit (go to the gym five days a week) and eat healthy (I don't binge drink). I have a few social outlets as well. I didn't before which was probably a big cause of me getting depressed.
I looked like hell when I was depressed; I look much better now.
I keep depression at bay by not becoming too happy, keeping my guard up.
It works but means I don't enjoy life too much. It's possible you are right and that a better job with better pay might not fix everything. I have become so fixated with a life of searching job sites and going for interviews that I have nothing to look forward to.
I don't want to have anything to look forward to 'cause I want to punish myself for being so useless.
Add that with the constant failure to get a better job and the self-criticism that follows and you have a recipe for depression.
I need to watch it or else I will slip back there again. I'd still like to get a better job though :-)

Lola B

Yes it sounds like you have an "I'll be happy when..." attitude, here are two quotes from a really good book I've read many times:

I was saying that we don't want to be happy. We want other things. Or lets put it more accurately: We don't want to be unconditionally happy. I'm ready to be happy provided I have this thing and the other thing. But this is really to say to our friend or to our God or to anyone, "Your are my happiness. If I don't get you I refuse to be happy." It's so important to understand that. We cannot imagine being happy without those conditions. That's pretty accurate. We cannot conceive of being happy without them. We've been taught to place our happiness in them.


I think the quote above applies to most people but you seem to be especially wrapped up in the idea that a new job equals happiness, it's healthier to say "I would prefer to get a new job, but it is also OK if I don't".

Personal worth doesn't mean self-worth. Where do you get self worth from? Do you get it from success in your work? Do you get it from having a lot of money? Do you get it from attracting a lot of men (if you are a woman) or a lot of women (if you're a man)? How fragile all that is, how transitory. When we talk about self worth, are we not talking, really, about how we are reflected in the mirrors of other people's minds? But do we need to depend on that? One understands one's personal worth when one no longer defines one's self in terms of these transient things.


It's sad the way you talk about yourself, but at least you are trying to look after yourself and maybe that will eventually lead to some self respect!

By the way that book is called Awareness by Anthony De Mello.

Lorna123

You got your degree in your late twenties, well done.
You always wanted to be a software developer, and now you are one, well done.
You like your job, another plus.
You are getting lots of interviews, so you must be doing something right.
You might do better in Dublin, but you want to stay where you are and you can do that, so another plus.

The reason you are zoning in on yourself all of the time is that you should be mixing with peers more. You have too much time on your hands to dwell on the past. The past is gone forever but the future is what you should be concentrating on.

So far you have been successful and quit thinking that you haven't, you have.

The economy is not great now for anyone to better themselves, not just you. So many people have no jobs. You are getting great practice at interviews and you have the motivation to go for them so again this is a plus.

So far I have counted a lot of plusses in your life, plusses that you should be happy with. Stop torturing yourself by wishing that your life was different. You will earn more money when the economy improves and in the meantime you are doing the best you can. You are most definitely not a failure so get that out of your head.

Keep going for the interviews and improve on your interview skills after each interview as advised above. Someone like you will get what they are after in time so quit worrying.

Join as many social clubs as you can too because you need to mix more with people and stop zoning in on yourself.

LegacyUser

Lorna123 wrote: »

You got your degree in your late twenties, well done.
You always wanted to be a software developer, and now you are one, well done.
You like your job, another plus.
You are getting lots of interviews, so you must be doing something right.
You might do better in Dublin, but you want to stay where you are and you can do that, so another plus.

The reason you are zoning in on yourself all of the time is that you should be mixing with peers more. You have too much time on your hands to dwell on the past. The past is gone forever but the future is what you should be concentrating on.

So far you have been successful and quit thinking that you haven't, you have.

The economy is not great now for anyone to better themselves, not just you. So many people have no jobs. You are getting great practice at interviews and you have the motivation to go for them so again this is a plus.

So far I have counted a lot of plusses in your life, plusses that you should be happy with. Stop torturing yourself by wishing that your life was different. You will earn more money when the economy improves and in the meantime you are doing the best you can. You are most definitely not a failure so get that out of your head.

Keep going for the interviews and improve on your interview skills after each interview as advised above. Someone like you will get what they are after in time so quit worrying.

Join as many social clubs as you can too because you need to mix more with people and stop zoning in on yourself.

You are right when you say I am zoning in on myself too much; I actually hate doing it. I go to Aware meetings but sometimes feel like an idiot there talking about myself so much; it feels really selfish. You say I will get what I want over time and hopefully I will.
I'll have to get to work on improving my interview technique and learning some new technologies over the holidays.

skyfall2012

matthew_99 wrote: »

You are right when you say I am zoning in on myself too much; I actually hate doing it. I go to Aware meetings but sometimes feel like an idiot there talking about myself so much; it feels really selfish. You say I will get what I want over time and hopefully I will.
I'll have to get to work on improving my interview technique and learning some new technologies over the holidays.

Go to the development part of boards.ie a lot of people discussing interview questions and work etc.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Its all about how you look at these things OP.

Its your outlook and attitude you need to change. Several times in these posts you have put yourself down and been savagely self critical. If this is the way you look at yourself, you are setting yourself up to be viewed exactly like that by others. When you go into an interview you should be selling yourself as much as possible. You should be trying to convince them how amazing you are. If you don't believe that yoursef no one else will.

Make a conscious effort not to put yourself down anymore. Whenever you have a negative thought, stop yourself and make yourself say something positive. If you're not happy about something on your CV, son't accept it the way it is. Enrol in a night course and try to give it everything you have to do brilliantly at it. In an interview, acknowledge that you're disappointed about how you performed in college all those years ago but tell them you were a different person then - show them how now that you have matured you have a better outlook on life and have succeeded in your recent studies. Interviewers will admire your honesty and willingness to improve yourself. Put yourself across as someone trying to be the best possible version of himself in his life. People will pick up on this.

Change is in your hands. Only you can do it. You don't have to accept failure. As long as you do that you will fail over and over. Its a tough world out there these days. You're competing with a lot of people to succeed, but no one will compete harder with you than that negative side to you that keeps holding you back. If you're not happy the way things are then you are in the best position to do so - but talking about it won't do any good. Doing something about it will.

Good luck.

LegacyUser

Pete Campbell wrote: »

Its all about how you look at these things OP.

Its your outlook and attitude you need to change. Several times in these posts you have put yourself down and been savagely self critical. If this is the way you look at yourself, you are setting yourself up to be viewed exactly like that by others. When you go into an interview you should be selling yourself as much as possible. You should be trying to convince them how amazing you are. If you don't believe that yoursef no one else will.

Make a conscious effort not to put yourself down anymore. Whenever you have a negative thought, stop yourself and make yourself say something positive. If you're not happy about something on your CV, son't accept it the way it is. Enrol in a night course and try to give it everything you have to do brilliantly at it. In an interview, acknowledge that you're disappointed about how you performed in college all those years ago but tell them you were a different person then - show them how now that you have matured you have a better outlook on life and have succeeded in your recent studies. Interviewers will admire your honesty and willingness to improve yourself. Put yourself across as someone trying to be the best possible version of himself in his life. People will pick up on this.

Change is in your hands. Only you can do it. You don't have to accept failure. As long as you do that you will fail over and over. Its a tough world out there these days. You're competing with a lot of people to succeed, but no one will compete harder with you than that negative side to you that keeps holding you back. If you're not happy the way things are then you are in the best position to do so - but talking about it won't do any good. Doing something about it will.

Good luck.

OK I'll try, thanks :-)

wasabi

OP - it's important to realise that interviewing is a skill, particularly in the software field. Within the last five to ten years a set of large tech companies (MS, Google and so on) popularised a certain style of technical interviewing that's very high pressure and very difficult, and elements of this seem to have percolated into the interviewing process for most software jobs.

I myself worked in the same company from 2003, when I was very junior, to 2011, then after 8 years found myself out looking for jobs in this scary new world where you're being asked to solve tricky problems on whiteboards with very little time, do five interviews back to back and so on. And, initially, I wasn't very good at this and I screwed some interviews up. I went away, studied some things I was rusty on, practiced the type of problems that tend to come up in interviews, incidentally started a Masters, and got a whole lot better at tech interviewing. It's a skill; you can learn it like any other.

There are books on this now. 'Programming Interviews Exposed' is a decent one, there are others. You will probably find studying algorithms and doing practice problems handy. Knowing more than one programming language is great and very worthwhile, but I probably wouldn't go trying to learn too many specific technologies just for interviewing.

Companies can hire a skill or they can hire a person; if they're hiring a specific skill they'll want a lot of prior experience in that skill but if they're hiring a person they'll be looking more at whether they think a person can acquire the skills needed for a role. The catch with programming jobs is there's usually a big list of buzzwords with most roles, but often companies will hire candidates without several of those buzzwords who can demonstrate that they're good software engineers with transferable skills (understanding algorithms, concurrency etc).

You can also make yourself more attractive as a candidate by having a portfolio that demonstrates your skills - a blog or a github with some personal projects on it. Showing your strong points there might swing things in your favour if interviews aren't your strong suit, and it's all practice anyway.

I'd also say this - if programming doesn't work out for you in the end there's all sorts of ancillary areas - business analyst, QA, technical writing, project management, product management, sysadmin, release management, customer support, technical recruiting or software sales - if you don't feel you're a strong coder one of those may suit you better. I did my CS degree starting in the late nineties during the dot com/Y2K boom when CS was a very popular option, and there were many in my year who really weren't suited for coding. Ten years on most of them have managed to carve out good careers in these types of areas instead, and haven't suffered for it careerwise. Regardless of what you do down the road software is big business these days and understanding it won't do your career any harm.

Best of luck, OP!

Tom_Cruise

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Taltos>

Lorna123

Great post Wasabi, thanks for posting that. Would you know who the author of
'Programming Interviews Exposed' is as I have someone in mind who could benefit from reading that.

wasabi

Lorna123 wrote: »

Great post Wasabi, thanks for posting that. Would you know who the author of
'Programming Interviews Exposed' is as I have someone in mind who could benefit from reading that.

John Mongan, Noah Suojanen and Eric Giguère are the authors of Programming Interviews Exposed. It's easy to find on any of the big online book retailers.

LegacyUser

Many thanks to those who posted those links and the names of those books . My morale is at rock bottom as regards interviews, it's affecting my mood, I've failed so many of them I don't know if I can go for any of them anymore. I know that's defeatist talk but it's hard to keep getting back up after falling down so many times.
I got voicemails from recruitment agencies over the past few weeks wanting to put my name forward for interviews but I didn't answer them. As the thread title says, I have accepted that I won't be a success in my career now and thought it hurts I have to acknowledge it.
That's hardly unique;lots of people (even those who went back to education at a later age) have failed their degrees and ended up in low skilled, poorly paid jobs. I know some people like that myself.
I am not looking down on people like that by the way, it's just the way it turned out for them (every footballer can't be as good as Lionel Messi can they?).
A lot of them are probably as happy as can be and fair play to them.
Part of me sometimes says that it seems like there isn't much point now anyway;I'm 40, what's the point, it's too late to build a career at that age. I keep comparing myself with people who took the path I wish I had taken; they worked hard at their leaving cert, went to college and got a good job. My sister and my best friend did that;I wish I had been like them but I wasn't and I think I will never be able to stop punishing myself for it (no holidays, nights out or any enjoyment of any sort.
This has been an ongoing cycle of self-desctruction that I really wish I could break.
I wish I could stop thinking about it and just well...live basically.
Crippling lack of confidence, self-doubt,self-criticism, low morale, all wrapped into one.
Sorry this thread is going on so long, I don't even know why I posted that..

skyfall2012

Read the Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell, nobody is a genius, they just put in their 10,000 hours.

Also, look at the Quinn family, when their ordeal is over, they will have to pick themselves up off the floor and start again and something tells me they will.

Below is an extract from the Guardian Newspaper:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/14/miranda-sawyer-midlife-crisis-mortality

"When people torment themselves with: 'If only I had… or if only I were…'," she writes, "I like to bring them to their actual felt experience of being alive in the present. People can suddenly find themselves alone, or jobless, at midlife and panic that they need another person or job in order to be alive. But that is only an idea. I like to keep things experience-based rather than idea-based. When they really experience the different relationships and occupations they actually have, they find that they are thriving."