unable to find a death cert

TCDStudent1

Hello,

I can see that my gread grandfather married in 1905:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYZT-H6T

He married this woman:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYZR-4JS

Now in 1906, I see my great grandfather married again:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYD9-C3X

*********************************

So I have gotten these marriage certs and can see that my great gradn father was a widower when he got married the second time.

But I am curious as to how his first wife dies. However, I cannot find a death cert for her. Is there any way I can find a record of her death????

Mollymoo19

There are a few Mary Loftus deaths registered in Mayo in 1905-1906 (if it was registered there) - this one looks like it might be possible?

Mary Loftus
registration district: Ballina,
event type: DEATHS
registration quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1905
estimated birth year: 1886
age (at death): 19
volume number: 4
page number: 8

tyview

I presume you have ruled out these possible matches: https://familysearch.org/search/records/index#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Amary~%20%2Bsurname%3Aloftus~%20%2Bdeath_year%3A1905-1906~&collection_id=1408347

What other information have you got on Mary?

TCDStudent1

Thanks for the responses:

There are a few Mary Loftus deaths registered in Mayo in 1905-1906 (if it was registered there) - this one looks like it might be possible?

Mary Loftus
registration district: Ballina,
event type: DEATHS
registration quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1905
estimated birth year: 1886
age (at death): 19
volume number: 4
page number: 8

I dont think that is her cos they lived in a different part of Myo to Ballina. They would have lived in the Castlebar region. Also, her marriage cert states she was 30 at the time of her marriage in 1905.

I presume you have ruled out these possible matches: https://familysearch.org/search/reco...ion_id=1408347

What other information have you got on Mary?

Yes, I searched through them and could not find a relevant match.

I dont have any informaton on her really - I only know the information in her marriage cert from 1905. I cant even find her in the 1901 census.

tyview

Do you have the actual marriage cert showing her parents names and address?

Edit: sorry just saw you said she was 30 so you must have the cert! did the address on her marriage cert show castlebar too?

I would have thought this one may have been a fairly ok match but you may not know unless you order it. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRXF-DPF

TCDStudent1

Yes, I have the marriage cert.

When I look at the 1901 census for where she lived, I get the following result:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=Sheil&firstname=&county=Mayo&townland=Lisnolan&ded=&age=&sex=&search=Search&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&birthplace=&language=&deafdumb=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=

so presumably she is related to these people. Her fahers name was John according to the marriage cert.

But the John in the above link is not married....

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Balla/Smuttanagh/1581748/

Actually, this woman from the 1901 census looks a good match. And she doesnt appear in the 1911 census. But this doesnt help me discover how she died.

TCDStudent1

I would have thought this one may have been a fairly ok match but you may not know unless you order it. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRXF-DPF[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but the problem is that Kilala is right at the tip of north Mayo, a long way from Castlebar. That is why I ruled that one out....

tyview

Wonder if this is her on the census?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Balla/Smuttanagh/1581748/

Not familliar with the area but google map shows the lisnolan area just beside smuttanagh

TCDStudent1

Wonder if this is her on the census?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.i...anagh/1581748/

Not familliar with the area but google map shows the lisnolan area just beside smuttanagh

yep, thats her. See my above post!

tyview

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

yep, thats her. See my above post!

ah I must be half asleep! sorry

Did you find patrick on the census?

TCDStudent1

I didnt actually find him, no.

But I did find his family. He would have been part of this family:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Clogher/Curry/1582703/

But didnt find him specifically.

dido2

I wouldn't rule out a death record from anywhere in Mayo, I've people who married and died in areas that we wouldn't have thought of, sometimes after people got married they moved around a bit until they eventually settled, also the registration districts, Castlebar, Ballina and Killala are all one next to the other going northwards so it is quite possible that they might have been living in either of the registation districts when she died this is a list of the registration districts in Ireland, hopefully it will work, it's a PDF download
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEEQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgenealogyresearch.org.uk%2FIRL_RegistrationDistricts1871.pdf&ei=APzMUO6XN8iYhQfuxYDwCg&usg=AFQjCNFs5e2m9DZOdiPmvV8yNrzTM-l_EQ&sig2=a1dWlnqtgysb3QA67IqYaQ

dido2

Have your found Patrick Loftus in the 1911 Census?? Is this him with his second wife??? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Crossmolina__South/Killeen/701957/

TCDStudent1

dido2 wrote: »

I wouldn't rule out a death record from anywhere in Mayo, I've people who married and died in areas that we wouldn't have thought of, sometimes after people got married they moved around a bit until they eventually settled, also the registration districts, Castlebar, Ballina and Killala are all one next to the other going northwards so it is quite possible that they might have been living in either of the registation districts when she died this is a list of the registration districts in Ireland, hopefully it will work, it's a PDF download
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEEQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgenealogyresearch.org.uk%2FIRL_RegistrationDistricts1871.pdf&ei=APzMUO6XN8iYhQfuxYDwCg&usg=AFQjCNFs5e2m9DZOdiPmvV8yNrzTM-l_EQ&sig2=a1dWlnqtgysb3QA67IqYaQ

I dont think they ever lived in the Ballina or Killala districts. Her husband got married shortly after her death. He married in the same place that he lived with his first wife. So there is nothing to suggest that he lived somewhere else with his first wife. As a farmer, I find it incredibly unlikely that he moved around? Perhaps it would be worth gettingm y hands on the cert just to make sure though.

The only way that I think the person from the Killala / Ballina districts could be the same person is if there was some hospital / workhouse (Would there have been TB workhouses back then?) that she was sent to. But then one still expect that she would have gone to Castlebar. Castlebar is a far bigger town with more facilities (one would imagine) that is only a short distance from where they lived.

Have your found Patrick Loftus in the 1911 Census?? Is this him with his second wife??? http://www.census.nationalarchives.i...illeen/701957/

No, thats not him. This is him:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Balla/Lisnolan/710820/

dido2

There was a Workhouse in Ballina, http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Ballina/ if I were you I'd order the Killala death cert, even if it were from a hospital, it should have the home address on it too.. There were other Work houses too in Mayo, but you never know.......

dido2

I Just had another thought, based on a person in my own family tree, I have this woman named Christina Baldwin, she married a Thomas Burleigh in 1911, he died in 1913, and she remarried in 1919, but on her marriage cert in 1919 she is Named as Christina Burleigh and her father is named as James Burleigh, even though both were Baldwin, so I wonder if theres a possibilty that your Mary Sheils/Loftus might have been on her second marriage when she died in 1905?? If she was 30 then, I think that would have been considered old enough to be getting married wouldn't it??

TCDStudent1

dido2 wrote: »

I Just had another thought, based on a person in my own family tree, I have this woman named Christina Baldwin, she married a Thomas Burleigh in 1911, he died in 1913, and she remarried in 1919, but on her marriage cert in 1919 she is Named as Christina Burleigh and her father is named as James Burleigh, even though both were Baldwin, so I wonder if theres a possibilty that your Mary Sheils/Loftus might have been on her second marriage when she died in 1905?? If she was 30 then, I think that would have been considered old enough to be getting married wouldn't it??

No, I have her marriage cert. She was a spinster when she married in 1905.

What difference would this make anyway? It would be her married name on her death cert, I am sure.

I will get the Ballina / Killala certs just to make sure. But I think it is very unlikely. The ages dont exactly match AND the places dont match, making it incredibly unlikely that it is her.

dido2

On this particular marriage cert is has Christina as a spinster too, even though she had been previously married, I'm not sure how this actually happened and who gave the information but if this womans grand daughter hadn't known that her GM's maiden name was Baldwin, she would have taken it that it was Burleigh because nothing on the marriage cert indicates otherwise, the address for Christina is the proof that she is the right person!!

I would get the Ballina and Killala Certs, it's seems to be hard to find out what areas exactly were covered by each registration district, but for €8 you'd either rule both of them out or find Mary Loftus's death cert

dido2

Just another thing I thought of in relation to age, we've had many death certs that were out by a good number of years in one case out by 10 years so for the possible death certs I wouldn't take too much notice because the info about age on death certs was given based on what the person knew about the dead person, names and ages are all very loose in terms of them fitting in!

TCDStudent1

dido2 wrote: »

Just another thing I thought of in relation to age, we've had many death certs that were out by a good number of years in one case out by 10 years so for the possible death certs I wouldn't take too much notice because the info about age on death certs was given based on what the person knew about the dead person, names and ages are all very loose in terms of them fitting in!

yes, I am aware of that.

I still think it is extremely unlikely that she is going to be one of those 2 people (Ballina & Killala).

Do churches keep funeral records in the same way they keep baptism records?

dido2

Don't think any churches kept funeral records but you could try the Local cemeteries for Castlebar to see if they have any records available..

pinkypinky

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

yes, I am aware of that.

I still think it is extremely unlikely that she is going to be one of those 2 people (Ballina & Killala).

Do churches keep funeral records in the same way they keep baptism records?

It's unusual for Catholic churches to keep burial records. Even if it is unlikely, I would still get those to death certs to rule them out definitively.

TCDStudent1

pinkypinky wrote: »

It's unusual for Catholic churches to keep burial records. Even if it is unlikely, I would still get those to death certs to rule them out definitively.

I got the two certs and they are not her. One cert was a woman who died did so in the presence of her husband (John) so it could not be her. The other woman was not married. So I have ruled both of these out now.

Any other ideas?

This is a summary of what I know:

She appears in the 1901 census here:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Balla/Smuttanagh/1581748/

She is 27 & single in that census.

She married my great grandfather here:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYZR-4JS

My gread grandfather marries again a year later and is listed as a widower:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYD9-C3X

****************************************************

I dont know anything else. But I am very curious as to how she died so soon after marrying. Anyone got any other idea about how I could find this out?

Waitsian

I can think of several possibilities:

i) She didn't die and therefore your man is a bigamist - it happened!

ii) Mary died outside Mayo for eg a Mary Shiels died in Boyle in 1906.

iii) Her death wasn't registered.

iv) Her death was registered but late - check the late registration at the back of the index books.

v) Her death was registered using a maiden name.

vi) Thier marriage was annulled.

vii) Mary fled her marriage and moved away and therefore, well... see i). If Mary ever re-married she is also a bigamist. Mary could have emigrated, ended up in an asylum of some kind, been cast out due to some perceived shame, been murdered or disappeared - any number of different things could have happened.


I suppose what I'm trying to say is - think outside the box.

TCDStudent1

mod9maple wrote: »

I can think of several possibilities:

i) She didn't die and therefore your man is a bigamist - it happened!

ii) Mary died outside Mayo for eg a Mary Shiels died in Boyle in 1906.

iii) Her death wasn't registered.

iv) Her death was registered but late - check the late registration at the back of the index books.

v) Her death was registered using a maiden name.

vi) Thier marriage was annulled.

vii) Mary fled her marriage and moved away and therefore, well... see i). If Mary ever re-married she is also a bigamist. Mary could have emigrated, ended up in an asylum of some kind, been cast out due to some perceived shame, been murdered or disappeared - any number of different things could have happened.


I suppose what I'm trying to say is - think outside the box.

Haha, I would love for some of those to be true to spice up my family history! But I do think she did die as he is listed as a widower when he re-married.

I think the most likely thing is point 3 (death not regestered). Which I guess leaves me at a dead end?

Waitsian

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

But I do think she did die as he is listed as a widower when he re-married.

You're very trusting of your ancestors, if I may be so bold to say!

I know I'm not of mine, anything is possible and I rule nothing out.

Jellybaby1

mod9maple wrote: »

I know I'm not of mine, anything is possible and I rule nothing out.

I definitely agree with that. I wouldn't trust mine either. I just know there is a secret waiting to be uncovered, I have an idea of what really happened but can't find any evidence. Yet!

TCDStudent1

mod9maple wrote: »

You're very trusting of your ancestors, if I may be so bold to say!

I know I'm not of mine, anything is possible and I rule nothing out.

Not really trusting, but I think your suggestions are far fetched!

There were 2 other women who dies around the same time in the same neighbourhood from TB. So I dont know if that is relevant to my ancestor....

Waitsian

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I definitely agree with that. I wouldn't trust mine either. I just know there is a secret waiting to be uncovered, I have an idea of what really happened but can't find any evidence. Yet!

Yeah I'm the same. I've lots of circumstantial evidence and some secondary evidence but nothing yet concrete, but I'm convinced a story passed down the generations has been changed to suit a narrative that my aunts and uncles are happy with. I haven't told them and I won't now, they've had a story passed to them by their father and I'll let them die with it (they're all in their 70s & 80s). Don't think they'd believe me anyway!

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Not really trusting, but I think your suggestions are far fetched!

I know some of my suggestions are outlandish, I acknowledge that, but I was just trying to get you think beyond the conventional.

Good luck in your quest, let us know how you get on in future. We all know what it's like - frustrating.