Small car with ESP <€6k

fletch

My cousin recently crashed her car and is looking for a replacement. She was driving a Renault Twingo GT 1.2 100bhp so while it's no hot hatch, it was nippy enough. Initially she had decided she wanted a 4X4 as she thought it would be safer (she lost control on a back road one cold/damp morning) but I think she would be better with a small car (she probably couldn't afford the running costs of a 4X4 anyway) and personally I think a car with ESP and winter tyres would be safer.
So criteria

• Budget €6k maximum
• Must have ESP
• Relatively cheap running costs. (Approx 35-40mpg+, <€500 tax)
• Something with a bit of power...no 55bhp 1.2s

I did a quick search and could only really find the following
Fiat Punto 1.3 Diesel Multijet 75 Dynam - She's not keen on looks
Mazda 3 1.6 Diesel Executive TS2 NCT 11 - a bit old but may be a runner
Opel Astra Opel Astra Diesel 1.3 Cdti 6 - Again she's not keen on looks

I know most people might not even know if their car has ESP so does anyone know any other potential small cars with ESP (that may not have included it in their ad)

Eireann81

fletch wrote: »

My cousin recently crashed her car and is looking for a replacement. She was driving a Renault Twingo GT 1.2 100bhp so while it's no hot hatch, it was nippy enough. Initially she had decided she wanted a 4X4 as she thought it would be safer (she lost control on a back road one cold/damp morning)

Did she have ABS on the Twingo? I doubt ESP would have helped her in that situation.

fletch

Eireann81 wrote: »

Did she have ABS on the Twingo? I doubt ESP would have helped her in that situation.

Yes the Twingo did have ABS....the back spun so I think had she had ESP she may not have crashed.

galwaytt

fletch wrote: »

Yes the Twingo did have ABS....the back spun so I think had she had ESP she may not have crashed.

I think you're over estimating the power of ESP ......it can't provide grip where there is none. Add in inertia and no computer will save it.

How about a skid pan driving course to add some skills for the future ?

fletch

galwaytt wrote: »

I think you're over estimating the power of ESP ......it can't provide grip where there is none. Add in inertia and no computer will save it.

How about a skid pan driving course to add some skills for the future ?

Thanks....thats actually a good suggestion...I will say it to her.

And yes I understand there are limitations to ESP but I do think it would give her a bit more confidence (obviously I would be telling her that its no excuse to drive faster)

galwaytt

fletch wrote: »

Thanks....thats actually a good suggestion...I will say it to her.

And yes I understand there are limitations to ESP but I do think it would give her a bit more confidence (obviously I would be telling her that its no excuse to drive faster)

Tbh, this would be both fun and educational: http://www.mondello.ie/advanced_car_control/


Failing that, buy what you like and.......I have a printer/labeller and a bag of dummy switches ............I'm sure I can print "ESP" handy enough

ghogie91

ESP is grand like but its of no great benefit like there are so much more factors to take into account

basically i find the esp on my passat stopping the tyres from skidding if i do a chuck norris take off like thats the sum total of it

fletch

ghogie91 wrote: »

basically i find the esp on my passat stopping the tyres from skidding if i do a chuck norris take off like thats the sum total of it

Are you confusing traction control with ESP?

ghogie91

fletch wrote: »

Are you confusing traction control with ESP?

I have no idea its a button... when off car skids

when on... car doesnt

CiniO

galwaytt wrote: »

I think you're over estimating the power of ESP ......it can't provide grip where there is none. Add in inertia and no computer will save it.

How about a skid pan driving course to add some skills for the future ?

I would mix both (pan driving course + ESP).
The fact is, that hour or two of skid driving will give you some idea, but to actually become proficient in controlling skids, you need to spend 100+ hours training.
I doubt any average driver would bother doing this.

And I don't agree.
In case described by OP where back spun on slippery road, there is huge change that ESP would prevent it. That's exactly what it's for.

Bpmull

I have an Astra 1.3cdti and mine is a lot higher spec than the one you linked and mine doesn't have ESP so I highly doubt the one in the add has it I could be wrong though. Other than that I find my one a good car and it handles very well even at high speed. Although I find if it is raining and you go to move fast off a roundabout it will spin the wheels abut specially when the turbo comes in at 1500 revs. But I put new Bridgestone tyres on mine and find grip to be greatly improve. As was already said I don't think ESP makes a huge difference ultimately it is only a computer.

fletch

CiniO wrote: »

In case described by OP where back spun on slippery road, there is huge change that ESP would prevent it. That's exactly what it's for.

I do tend to agree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiZjeeMExY4

comanche_cor

ghogie91 wrote: »

ESP is grand like but its of no great benefit like there are so much more factors to take into account

basically i find the esp on my passat stopping the tyres from skidding if i do a chuck norris take off like thats the sum total of it

In the last big freeze I took a Golf with ESP into an empty carpark that was covered in compacted snow - ESP made a massive difference in keeping the back end in and the car going in the direction it was supposed to go. Almost completely stopping it an sliding and slides a lot more controllable. ESP and winter types will make a massive difference to any car in winter conditions IMO..

CiniO

ghogie91 wrote: »

ESP is grand like but its of no great benefit like there are so much more factors to take into account

basically i find the esp on my passat stopping the tyres from skidding if i do a chuck norris take off like thats the sum total of it

Maybe you just didn't really tested it at actual skidding situation.

I got my first car with ESP last year (it's Mazda 6) and I spend a good while testing what ESP can do, especially on snow and ice.

And I must admit I'm impressed.
It's not 100% guarantee, but in most simple cases where speed is exceeded by small bit and back of the car breaks away (oversteer), or front skids on bend (understeer), ESP helps.

I decided to go for car with ESP after my wife crashed my previous one (without ESP) by skidding the rear of the car on the bend on wet road.

Bigus

I think you're 100 % correct fletch on the benefits of ESP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0

CiniO

LIGHTNING wrote: »

+1

No amount of ESP/ABS is going to stop a car from flying off a cold,frosty road in the morning. The skid pan would certainly be a good idea and would give the person an idea of what to expect.

You won't be able to change physics.
If you are much above the border of grip, nothing will help, even if your name is Loeb.

But if you are small bit above, ESP will most likely help, while to achieve the same effect on car without ESP you need very quick and appropriate reaction from driver, which obviously is possible, but requires plenty of training beforehand.

That's why I think some basic training to give idea of controlling skids + ESP is a safe option for average driver.

seanhalpin

There's also a huge danger with ESP when used in the wrong hands.

You always have the potential for some moron to take the attitude that "oh it has ESP, ASB, EBD etc etc., Sure it WONT CRASH".
Then they end up ploughing into a group of children.

It's a bit like the way they said that the Titanic was unsinkable. Same with ESP.

fletch

CiniO wrote: »

But if you are small bit above, ESP will most likely help, while to achieve the same effect on car without ESP you need very quick and appropriate reaction from driver, which obviously is possible, but requires plenty of training beforehand.

No amount of training would make it possible for a human being to simulate ESP in a normal car as we can't brake each wheel individually

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

I have an Astra 1.3cdti and mine is a lot higher spec than the one you linked and mine doesn't have ESP so I highly doubt the one in the add has it I could be wrong though. Other than that I find my one a good car and it handles very well even at high speed. Although I find if it is raining and you go to move fast off a roundabout it will spin the wheels abut specially when the turbo comes in at 1500 revs. But I put new Bridgestone tyres on mine and find grip to be greatly improve. As was already said I don't think ESP makes a huge difference ultimately it is only a computer.

What you are talking about is traction control. (prevents driving wheels from spinning excessively when you overpress the accelerator pedal.

ESP is a system that is meant to change car trajectory on the bend.
It analyses the acceleration in each direction, the speed of each wheel separately, and if it detects that car is skidding to the side (either front or back) it will brake the one specific wheel to work with the proper momentum on the car to try to correct it's trajectory.
It's actually even more than any driver can do, as no driver has a possibility to brake justs one wheel (only all 4 at the time).

Anan1

fletch wrote: »

No amount of training would make it possible for a human being to simulate ESP in a normal car as we can't brake each wheel individually

True, although ESP can't (generally) steer.

FWIW, I think your idea that she get a car with ESP and winter tyres makes a lot of sense.

fletch

Anyways...can we stop this going off topic...I appreciate the skid pad suggestion but other than that has anyone any other car suggestions?

Anan1

The A class Mercedes had standard ESP from launch in 1998.

CiniO

comanche_cor wrote: »

In the last big freeze I took a Golf with ESP into an empty carpark that was covered in compacted snow - ESP made a massive difference in keeping the back end in and the car going in the direction it was supposed to go. Almost completely stopping it an sliding and slides a lot more controllable. ESP and winter types will make a massive difference to any car in winter conditions IMO..

The same are my observations.

For example I choose to drive through the bend on snow at higher speed than safe.

Without ESP to maintain car within the bend, I need to permanently control it with gas pedal (pumping it adequately) and steering wheel (counter-steering). Generally I need to act very quickly and appropriately to keep car on the road.

With ESP on all i had to to was to keep gas pedal at constant position to maintain speed, and turn my steering wheel by the amount I wanted to turn. Car would make all the job automatically (you can hear it's braking and releasing brakes, and braking again, etc). Anyway - it keeps the trajectory I wished it to keep.

CiniO

fletch wrote: »

No amount of training would make it possible for a human being to simulate ESP in a normal car as we can't brake each wheel individually

Obviously I agree. (I actually wrote about it next post without even noticing yours), but a very well trained driver might still do better than ESP even without a possibility to controll each wheels separately.
Only problem is that we are talking about less than 1% of drivers.
Remining 99%+ needs ESP.

Tea 1000

Few options, I'd say most should have ESP. but rule them in or out with her and find out about ESP later. Some cars came with it as an option on higher spec, so it's hard to gauge by looking at the ad alone.

Bravo
Sedici Some of the early models had selectable 4WD, but that changed to 2WD, so need to check that.
Focus Diesel
New Shape Mondeo
New shape Civic Hatch
New Shape Civic Saloon
Audi A4 1.6

Bpmull

CiniO wrote: »

What you are talking about is traction control. (prevents driving wheels from spinning excessively when you overpress the accelerator pedal.

ESP is a system that is meant to change car trajectory on the bend.
It analyses the acceleration in each direction, the speed of each wheel separately, and if it detects that car is skidding to the side (either front or back) it will brake the one specific wheel to work with the proper momentum on the car to try to correct it's trajectory.
It's actually even more than any driver can do, as no driver has a possibility to brake justs one wheel (only all 4 at the time).

I know what ESP is and what it does I just ment the traction control as a seperate point my astra has neither. But I know they are to different things. My parents cars have both systems and you can see a difference in certain conditions. In saying all that I wouldn't call my astra unstable just because It doesn't have these features.

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

I know what ESP is and what it does I just ment the traction control as a seperate point my astra has neither. But I know they are to different things. My parents cars have both systems and you can see a difference in certain conditions. In saying all that I wouldn't call my astra unstable just because It doesn't have these features.

Because those systems are not meant to make car stable.
They are meant to react in case driver exceeds limits of grip and makes car unstable.

TheFisherKing

galwaytt wrote: »

I think you're over estimating the power of ESP ......

I think you're under-estimating it.

Extra Sensory Perception had Pacino driving blind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3y2OvvuhDI

colm_mcm

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/4271238

Bpmull

colm_mcm wrote: »

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/4271238

Nice car but the Astra 1.3 set up is a lot better as it is 90bhp not 75 bhp and is 6 speed not 5 speed. I don't think I would buy a 5 speed 1.3. The main reason I bought the Astra was the fact it was 90 bhp and 6 speed it really suits the engine that gearbox.

NIMAN

Just checked my Focus and it has ESP but it was switched off.

Why would it be? Should it not be permanently on?

CiniO

NIMAN wrote: »

Just checked my Focus and it has ESP but it was switched off.

Why would it be? Should it not be permanently on?

How did you check it?

Most like it was permanently on, and you just switched it off.

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

Nice car but the Astra 1.3 set up is a lot better as it is 90bhp not 75 bhp and is 6 speed not 5 speed. I don't think I would buy a 5 speed 1.3. The main reason I bought the Astra was the fact it was 90 bhp and 6 speed it really suits the engine that gearbox.

That's but flawed logic.
You said you chose astra 1.3 instead of punto, because astra has got stronger engine and 6 gear box.
However if you look at performance parametres, those cars come nearly the same, for reason that punto is lighter.

0-100km/h - Punto 13.6s - Astra 13.2s
Top Speed - Punto 103MPH - Astra 107MPH
Average MPG - Punto 63 - Astra 58

So you definitely didn't chose Astra for performance reasons.

Only reason I can think of, is that astra is actually bigger and spacier.
I'm not sure which car is more comfortable to drive or provides better handling, as I didn't drive any of them.


But it's funny saying that you chose astra because it's got stronger engine and more gears, while in fact those attributes don't give anything preformance-wise really.

Bpmull

CiniO wrote: »

That's but flawed logic.
You said you chose astra 1.3 instead of punto, because astra has got stronger engine and 6 gear box.
However if you look at performance parametres, those cars come nearly the same, for reason that punto is lighter.

0-100km/h - Punto 13.6s - Astra 13.2s
Top Speed - Punto 103MPH - Astra 107MPH
Average MPG - Punto 63 - Astra 58

So you definitely didn't chose Astra for performance reasons.

Only reason I can think of, is that astra is actually bigger and spacier.
I'm not sure which car is more comfortable to drive or provides better handling, as I didn't drive any of them.


But it's funny saying that you chose astra because it's got stronger engine and more gears, while in fact those attributes don't give anything preformance-wise really.

Ultimately the opel is roughly the same as the fiat but at 120kmh On a motorway I doubt the fiat would rev at 2100 rpm like my Astra no mater what way you look at it a 6 speed is going to rev lower at motorway speeds. The reason I bought my Astra was it is 2008 high spec with air con and all the extras and cost me 3k euro 3 months ago. I clearly did not pick a 1.3 for its performance but I do prefers the 6 speed for motorways. I'm not trying to knock the fiat I just prefer the Opel version. The Astra does have higher torque than the fiat which would make it pull slightly better up through the gears. But ultimately they would be similar enough as the fiat is lighter as you said.

GE90

My current car has no driver aids and i mean none, not even abs. Would my car be safer with abs, esp, tc, ect. ? Of course it would but i still consider myself a excellent driver. Electronic wizardry will never make up for a terrible driver but if it helps a average driver regain control when they step out of the safe envelope then i am all for it.

I have been reading up on esp and it really is a amazing invention. Id say after seat belts and airbags its is one of the biggest things to improve road safety lately.

Inbox

Love this video, DSC is bmws esp?

http://youtu.be/f3zLpNxHris

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

Ultimately the opel is roughly the same as the fiat but at 120kmh On a motorway I doubt the fiat would rev at 2100 rpm like my Astra no mater what way you look at it a 6 speed is going to rev lower at motorway speeds. The reason I bought my Astra was it is 2008 high spec with air con and all the extras and cost me 3k euro 3 months ago. I clearly did not pick a 1.3 for its performance but I do prefers the 6 speed for motorways. I'm not trying to knock the fiat I just prefer the Opel version. The Astra does have higher torque than the fiat which would make it pull slightly better up through the gears. But ultimately they would be similar enough as the fiat is lighter as you said.

That makes more sense now

I wonder one thing though - you mentioned that Astra revs at 2100rpm at 120km/h while punto would rev higher.
That's surely true, but what difference does it make?

I'm genuinely asking out of curiousity, as there seem to be many people here on this forum how prefer when endgine revs lower at high speed.
Why?

Fact that punto would rev higher doesn't mean it would use more fuel (it might, but might not).
At 120km/h general noise from wind and tyres is usually way greater than noise from engine, so no matter if it's 2k rpm or 3k rpm you can barely hear the engine.

In my car (2.0 petrol mazda 6) it's 3000rpm at 100km/h.
So at 120km/h it's 3600RPM.

I travel this car sometimes at 180km/h for longer periods at 5400rpm and can't really feel any inconvenance because of that fact. (except from really low MPG at that speed)

Bpmull

Reving a diesel high compared to a petrol is very different. 3500 revs on a motor way for petrol is normal for a petrol. 3500 revs for a diesel would be very high revs for the engine as diesel are not designed to rev really high. I prefer lower revs as it puts less wear on an engine any mechanic will tell you that. I don't agree with your point on fuel economy as the higher you revs an engine the more fuel it burns. As the cylinders are going through more cycles per minute and each cycle uses fuel. Now there is so many other factors friction weight to name only a few that effect fuel economy. That's my outlook on it anyway

galwaytt

CiniO wrote: »

I would mix both (pan driving course + ESP).
The fact is, that hour or two of skid driving will give you some idea, but to actually become proficient in controlling skids, you need to spend 100+ hours training.
I doubt any average driver would bother doing this.

And I don't agree.
In case described by OP where back spun on slippery road, there is huge change that ESP would prevent it. That's exactly what it's for.

Sorry, but I disagree. All training is beneficial. You don't need 100 hours-or-nothing.

I didn't say ESP isn't beneficial - it is. But most people do not have natural emergency driving reflexes. They brake when they shouldn't. Steer contra to what they should. Release brake and so undo what ABS is trying to help you with. These are normal human reactions. And this is why Bosch themselves say on their ESP website.. "So, within the limits of physics, the car is kept safely on the desired track.".....

2 hours on a skid pan will help you understand what your car, physics, is trying to do: what you can do to help the situation. Then, then ESP will really shine, as you'll be working with it, not against it.....

CiniO

Bpmull wrote: »

I prefer lower revs as it puts less wear on an engine any mechanic will tell you that.

Lower revs at the same speed meant different transmission ratio.
To pull the same car weight at lower revs, engine must provide more momentum to do the same job.
Therefore your saving on wear from lower revs, might be overwhelmed by wear caused by engine needing to produce more momentum.
That's why manufacturer while choosing engine for the car, also calculates and chooses gearbox providing transmission ratios most appropriate for that car.
Punto having only 5 gears and working at higher revs at 120km/h doesn't mean that engine is wearing more.

I don't agree with your point on fuel economy as the higher you revs an engine the more fuel it burns. As the cylinders are going through more cycles per minute and each cycle uses fuel. Now there is so many other factors friction weight to name only a few that effect fuel economy. That's my outlook on it anyway

I never tries to say that the higher the revs, the more fuel used. If that's what you understood from my last post, it means I didn't word it right.
Very often revs has not that much impact on fuel consumption as people think.

CiniO

galwaytt wrote: »

Sorry, but I disagree. All training is beneficial. You don't need 100 hours-or-nothing.

I didn't say ESP isn't beneficial - it is. But most people do not have natural emergency driving reflexes. They brake when they shouldn't. Steer contra to what they should. Release brake and so undo what ABS is trying to help you with. These are normal human reactions. And this is why Bosch themselves say on their ESP website.. "So, within the limits of physics, the car is kept safely on the desired track.".....

2 hours on a skid pan will help you understand what your car, physics, is trying to do: what you can do to help the situation. Then, then ESP will really shine, as you'll be working with it, not against it.....

Ohh I agree 100%
I said from the begining that any training is beneficial.
I just commented, that to become such good driver to be able to act better than ABS and ESP, you need way way way more than 2 hours. And you obviously need some talent as well.
Anyway - any training is better than no-training, and actually training which provides idea how to benefit from having ABS, ESP, etc sounds really great, and IMHO should be done before you obtain your driving licence during Essential driver training.

Matt Simis

For 6k Id be looking at Audi A3's and A4s with Quattro.. An old model (B5) 1.8T Quattro Sport comes with Leather, Air Con and a permanent mechanical AWD system. Interestingly not all came with ESP.. but its not needed with a TorSen diff. The A4 B5 is physically a small car, not much bigger than a BMW 1 Series Coupe, dont let the "A4" size mislead you.


Otherwise an A3 (or S3.. ) would be a more interesting and capable car than those listed and way better at motorway speeds.