Bad reference?

Esoteric_

Hey, any suggestions would be appreciated.

I left my last job due to a very bad incident, which is being dealt with at the moment, completely 100% not my fault. However, I left on bad terms with the company.

When I interviewed for two jobs recently, both interviews went great. In the last interview I did, I was told the job was mine as long as the reference she got when she called my last job was good, she even gave me a start date and time! She actually offered me a higher position than I applied for, higher wage too!

I didn't get the job, presumably because of my reference, because the offer was rescinded after she called for my reference. Similar story on my last interview.

I know it's 'illegal' to give a 'bad' reference, but we all know that the bog standard reference is considered to be bad!

Is there anything I can do about this? As it's my most recent, and also my longest lasting job (all of my jobs have been more than a year each in duration, however), it's the one that prospective employers are calling.

Is it worth explaining honestly in an interview why I left my job? I don't want to be seen as a trouble maker, because that would prevent me from getting a job, too, but it seems my lack of a recent good reference is preventing it anyway, so do I have anything to lose by being completely honest the next time I have an interview?

Procrastastudy

LyndaMcL wrote: »

I know it's 'illegal' to give a 'bad' reference, but we all know that the bog standard reference is considered to be bad!

You'd be wrong on both counts there.

Apply under Data Protection for the reasons why the offer was rescinded. Explain you're not in any way looking to peruse the company that rescinded your offer just looking to find out why. I would even be willing to send them a letter to that effect.

If you find that a bad reference has been given take it to a solicitor and get advice on whether you have been defamed.

ABajaninCork

Get a mate to pose as a prospective employer, and have them call your old employer for a reference. If you're able to find out what's being said, you might then be in a position to challenge the reference.

Meanwhile - Is there someone else you're on good terms with in your old role who might be able to stand referee?

ABajaninCork

Procrastastudy wrote: »

You'd be wrong on both counts there.

Apply under Data Protection for the reasons why the offer was rescinded. Explain you're not in any way looking to peruse the company that rescinded your offer just looking to find out why. I would even be willing to send them a letter to that effect.

If you find that a bad reference has been given take it to a solicitor and get advice on whether you have been defamed.

It's not Data Protection the OP needs to apply under. It's Freedom of Information...And the prospective employer may refuse the request.

im invisible

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Procrastastudy

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It's not Data Protection the OP needs to apply under. It's Freedom of Information...And the prospective employer may refuse the request.

I'm not saying you're wrong but surely if a prospective employer has information on you it would be covered under data protection? Happy to be corrected.

Either way still worth trying to get that information formally (although I like your suggestion also).

Esoteric_

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Get a mate to pose as a prospective employer, and have them call your old employer for a reference. If you're able to find out what's being said, you might then be in a position to challenge the reference.

Meanwhile - Is there someone else you're on good terms with in your old role who might be able to stand referee?

Yeah, I have a mate who's going to call the place for a reference, just so that I know exactly what I'm facing when it comes to future interviews.

There are a few people I'm on very good terms with, but they've told me straight out that their superiors have told them to read the reference left on file for me, and nothing more, probably because the 'incident' which led to me leaving happened with one of their superiors.

I'll ask the last place that interviewed me why I didn't get it, because the job was literally handed to me on a plate, wage agreed, date agreed, everything, until she got my reference. It's just doing my head in because I was one of the most efficient workers in my last job (they admitted that themselves before I quit!), and I interview really strongly, so I know it's not a case of my work being bad. :mad:

Appreciate the advice, guys. Just don't want to be sitting on the dole!

Nody

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong but surely if a prospective employer has information on you it would be covered under data protection? Happy to be corrected.

Either way still worth trying to get that information formally (although I like your suggestion also).

And of course any HR worth their salt would never write down "bad reference" or exact reference in the file in the first place...

To OP, you are allowed to give a "bad" reference if you can factually back it up. Hence they can say you had a "bad incident of type A" if this is in your file as this is not defamation.

How ever any half competent person can easily get around giving out any such information in a bog standard reference and you can't claim anything about it. If I get a reference call and get asked would I hire you again and wait 15s before I answer yes what are you going to say? Oh he gave me a bad reference saying he'd hire me again?

Your best bet is simply to be up front that you had a fall out with work Z over incident Y and hence your reference may not be perfect due to this.

Esoteric_

Nody wrote: »

And of course any HR worth their salt would never write down "bad reference" or exact reference in the file in the first place...

To OP, you are allowed to give a "bad" reference if you can factually back it up. Hence they can say you had a "bad incident of type A" if this is in your file as this is not defamation.

How ever any half competent person can easily get around giving out any such information in a bog standard reference and you can't claim anything about it. If I get a reference call and get asked would I hire you again and wait 15s before I answer yes what are you going to say? Oh he gave me a bad reference saying he'd hire me again?

Your best bet is simply to be up front that you had a fall out with work Z over incident Y and hence your reference may not be perfect due to this.

Mhm, that's what I was thinking. They'd never be stupid enough to actually mention the 'incident' because it's patently obvious I was completely in the right, and due to the nature of the incident, there is absolutely no way it can be construed to make me out to be the one in the wrong. I imagine they're giving a very standard reference, with enough pauses and such (as you mentioned) to make it look quite bad.

Guess I'll get somebody to call for a reference, see what it's like, and then, if there is nothing in it that I can refute, I'll just be totally upfront. Nothing to lose in doing that really, as I'm not getting past the interview stage because of the bloody reference.

Thank you for the advice! I've never had a 'bad' reference before, so have no real knowledge on how to deal with it, all my other references are glowing. :pac:

starlit

The fact they gave you a bad reference they will do it again so my guess is either state the reason why you left the company when you go for interviews/state on CV, leave out choice of ref from recent company you worked for at least but suggest a different referee doesn't matter how long you worked for them if they can vouch for you then add them in.

Depending how long ago you worked there and if you could name a lecturer from college that could vouch for you also. Better to add in someone who will give you a decent reference than someone who give a bad one.

It's not fair on you. The company should be ashamed of themselves for not giving you a good reference as well as the person who was conditionally giving you a job, the reference shouldn't have come into it, your work experience and personality should have and how you did in the interview, you were the person they were looking for why couldn't they have giving you a trial run of the job at least to prove you be the one for the job.

As other posters have mentioned go to a data protection agency or solicitor about it. You'd have to explain the gap in CV if you don't mention the company but you don't necessary have to add them as a ref!? If your other references are good stick with them no point adding someone who give you a bad one makes no sense, it was only one bad ref, why couldn't the new company not overlook it is beyond me.

Be up front about it though if asked why you didn't put your previous employer as a referee, they probably take it into consideration but other things should take priority really. I'd only use the important refs to be honest.

Irish_Elect_Eng

doovdela wrote: »

The fact they gave you a bad reference they will do it again so my guess is either state the reason why you left the company when you go for interviews/state on CV, leave out choice of ref from recent company you worked for at least but suggest a different referee doesn't matter how long you worked for them if they can vouch for you then add them in.

Depending how long ago you worked there and if you could name a lecturer from college that could vouch for you also. Better to add in someone who will give you a decent reference than someone who give a bad one.

Good advice there, but HR may smell a rat and call your last company anyway.

doovdela wrote: »

It's not fair on you. The company should be ashamed of themselves for not giving you a good reference as well as the person who was conditionally giving you a job, the reference shouldn't have come into it, your work experience and personality should have and how you did in the interview, you were the person they were looking for why couldn't they have giving you a trial run of the job at least to prove you be the one for the job.

To be honest we don't know if this is fair or not, we only have very limited information on one side of the story and I have never met anyone what was fired who admitted that they had done anything wrong. Reminded of the scene for the Shawshank Redemption "everyone here is innocent" :-)

The company should not be ashamed of giving a truthful reference, if it is not truthful then they certainly should be ashamed. Personally, I am always honest in my references, people that perform well get glowing references, people that did their job get a good reference and people that were poor get no-reference or a bad one depending on just how poor or destructive they were on the team. I have a professional responsibility to the next employer to be truthful as public safety could be impacted by a poor employee.

In my experience, only some people learn from their experiences, others continue to repeat destructive patterns. Some people are very good at talking in interviews and references can be very revealing of real capability and behaviors.

The last time I ignored a lukewarm reference I paid for it for two year stuck with a pretty poorly performing employee that did not want to develop their skills or improve their performance.

doovdela wrote: »

As other posters have mentioned go to a data protection agency or solicitor about it. You'd have to explain the gap in CV if you don't mention the company but you don't necessary have to add them as a ref!? If your other references are good stick with them no point adding someone who give you a bad one makes no sense, it was only one bad ref, why couldn't the new company not overlook it is beyond me.

I think that approaching the company with a the protection agency or solicitor will just make things worse for you.

doovdela wrote: »

Be up front about it though if asked why you didn't put your previous employer as a referee, they probably take it into consideration but other things should take priority really. I'd only use the important refs to be honest.

I think that this is the best approach, have a prepared story on why you were let go that shows you in the best light,be careful not to defame your previous employer though.

allibastor

I would agree with some of the posters here, it is not uncommon to have a potential candidate leave a job under bad terms, but they should say so during the interview why they have left, and if there is some dispute goig on much better. and to be fair, if the recruiter only went by one bad refernece they should be sacked, it takes 2-4 references to get a good picture of a candidate.

I would go along the route of a company friend who you might be still on good terms with to go as a character reference.

Esoteric_

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

To be honest we don't know if this is fair or not, we only have very limited information on one side of the story and I have never met anyone what was fired who admitted that they had done anything wrong. Reminded of the scene for the Shawshank Redemption "everyone here is innocent" :-)

I think that this is the best approach, have a prepared story on why you were let go that shows you in the best light,be careful not to defame your previous employer though.

I read and really appreciate all of your response, but just quoted two parts to respond to -

I wasn't let go from my job. I never got so much as a warning from my previous job. I quit after something extremely bad was done to me, and I had exhausted the proper complaints procedures, with nothing being done.

Since they didn't let me go and kept me on with absolutely no performance issues for a few years, surely that in itself would prove (since I have no warnings or anything on record) that I was a good worker?

allibastor

LyndaMcL wrote: »

I read and really appreciate all of your response, but just quoted two parts to respond to -

I wasn't let go from my job. I never got so much as a warning from my previous job. I quit after something extremely bad was done to me, and I had exhausted the proper complaints procedures, with nothing being done.

Since they didn't let me go and kept me on with absolutely no performance issues for a few years, surely that in itself would prove (since I have no warnings or anything on record) that I was a good worker?

Did you go to the LRC about this problem. If you were left go in that kind of situation and it now affects your future job prospects maybe they should be the ones to contact. also having a document from them would negate a new company needing a refernece as it would be classed as non de propria evidentia, Not of a proper basis in fact.

I would get something done about the previous employer first

Esoteric_

allibastor wrote: »

Did you go to the LRC about this problem. If you were left go in that kind of situation and it now affects your future job prospects maybe they should be the ones to contact. also having a document from them would negate a new company needing a refernece as it would be classed as non de propria evidentia, Not of a proper basis in fact.

I would get something done about the previous employer first

I'm not going to go into detail (I'm really trying to keep this as vague as possible!), but the 'incident' is being dealt with, yes. It'll take several months to be finished, though, which is why my issue now is with a lack of a reference, because I obviously don't want to sit on my backside getting the dole until then!

I have other, sparkling references from previous jobs, they're honestly fantastic references. In most interviews, I've given those as my references, but this HR manager that I interviewed with recently said she only wanted my last job, not the others.

allibastor

LyndaMcL wrote: »

I'm not going to go into detail (I'm really trying to keep this as vague as possible!), but the 'incident' is being dealt with, yes. It'll take several months to be finished, though, which is why my issue now is with a lack of a reference, because I obviously don't want to sit on my backside getting the dole until then!

I have other, sparkling references from previous jobs, they're honestly fantastic references. In most interviews, I've given those as my references, but this HR manager that I interviewed with recently said she only wanted my last job, not the others.

Well then, your only option is to explain the situation to them as to why your refernece will be invalid, along with the number of whom ever is dealing with it from which ever agency. If they are anyway of a clever recruiter person they should be able to see alright that it is a case which needs to be sorted out, and they could hire you even on the basis that if it is ruled against you you can be let go.

I know it sounds stupid, and cliched, but sometimes honesty is the best policy, so tell them what happened and how it affects you, if you have a good work record and no other disiplinary actions against you, and other referneces they should be happy.

Esoteric_

allibastor wrote: »

Well then, your only option is to explain the situation to them as to why your refernece will be invalid, along with the number of whom ever is dealing with it from which ever agency. If they are anyway of a clever recruiter person they should be able to see alright that it is a case which needs to be sorted out, and they could hire you even on the basis that if it is ruled against you you can be let go.

I know it sounds stupid, and cliched, but sometimes honesty is the best policy, so tell them what happened and how it affects you, if you have a good work record and no other disiplinary actions against you, and other referneces they should be happy.

Thanks a million, I really appreciate that! Like I said, I've never had a 'bad' reference before so I had no idea how to deal with the consequences of it.

Guess I'll just be honest and upfront, because I really have nothing to lose by it. Thanks again!

FloatingVoter

I realise that your last job was the longest lasting - but maybe ditch it from the CV for now. Plenty of people nowadays have gaps on their CVs due to caring for sick relatives, overseas travel, career breaks etc.

allibastor

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Thanks a million, I really appreciate that! Like I said, I've never had a 'bad' reference before so I had no idea how to deal with the consequences of it.

Guess I'll just be honest and upfront, because I really have nothing to lose by it. Thanks again!

I have seen it many times, i do recruitment myself and know that if you get one bad review there must be a reason, so a small bit of digging never hurts. and dont listen to the below post, if you were in the job for more than a year that kind of gap on the CV will kill you altogether.

Esoteric_

allibastor wrote: »

I have seen it many times, i do recruitment myself and know that if you get one bad review there must be a reason, so a small bit of digging never hurts. and dont listen to the below post, if you were in the job for more than a year that kind of gap on the CV will kill you altogether.

Yeah, I don't think a gap of a few years on my CV will look good at all, especially as the last job was a higher position than my previous roles, so it really is essential that I keep that on the CV.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it!

ResearchWill

ABajaninCork wrote: »

It's not Data Protection the OP needs to apply under. It's Freedom of Information...And the prospective employer may refuse the request.

As far as I know FOI only covers public bodies. Data protection legislation on the other hand covers all persons and bodies that process data.

http://foi.gov.ie/bodies-covered-by-foi/

The relevant section is section 4 of the Data Protection Act 1988 as amended

http://www.lawreform.ie/_fileupload/Restatement/First%20Programme%20of%20Restatement/EN_ACT_1988_0025.PDF

allibastor

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Yeah, I don't think a gap of a few years on my CV will look good at all, especially as the last job was a higher position than my previous roles, so it really is essential that I keep that on the CV.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it!

just keep thr chin up on it, try and ring the company back again and ecplain the situation to them and see what they say.

starlit

That's interesting that she asked you specifically for a ref from your last job. Shouldn't the jobs/ref relevant to the jobs you are applying for and interviewed for be more of a priority not just previous jobs? I can understand why they would ask for a ref since it been your previous employment.

I think either its the HR Manager's way or they got the heads up before they got your ref? They surely would have rang your former employer before the interview though, its bad on their part if they knew already before you gave them your reference. If they didn't do that check she should have not wasted your time with an interview, if she at least understood the circumstances but I think maybe at application/interview stage might have been wise to have mentioned about the incident during application/interview stage before giving her the ref. It have shown her you had some kind of dignity and integrity.

I have gone to interviews and I'd only add in the important refs, i'v a few but don't bother adding in my last job as a ref as I think it not as relevant as my others, one of which worked longer and similar to my field, and the other well is an academic ref as my other refs would be going back a bit too far. I stick with the relevant ones like. I still add in an address anyway for the last job not necessary a number so probably they do get in contact with them but for me it been my job previous to that would be more relevant in terms of jobs I am looking for. Though at interview stage they never asked me about getting a ref/asking for a ref from my last job they go by on what referees I have put down, the odd time I'd add in a friend depending on the job!

Esoteric_

doovdela wrote: »

That's interesting that she asked you specifically for a ref from your last job. Shouldn't the jobs/ref relevant to the jobs you are applying for and interviewed for be more of a priority not just previous jobs? I can understand why they would ask for a ref since it been your previous employment.

I think either its the HR Manager's way or they got the heads up before they got your ref? They surely would have rang your former employer before the interview though, its bad on their part if they knew already before you gave them your reference. If they didn't do that check she should have not wasted your time with an interview, if she at least understood the circumstances but I think maybe at application/interview stage might have been wise to have mentioned about the incident during application/interview stage before giving her the ref. It have shown her you had some kind of dignity and integrity.

I have gone to interviews and I'd only add in the important refs, i'v a few but don't bother adding in my last job as a ref as I think it not as relevant as my others, one of which worked longer and similar to my field, and the other well is an academic ref as my other refs would be going back a bit too far. I stick with the relevant ones like. I still add in an address anyway for the last job not necessary a number so probably they do get in contact with them but for me it been my job previous to that would be more relevant in terms of jobs I am looking for. Though at interview stage they never asked me about getting a ref/asking for a ref from my last job they go by on what referees I have put down, the odd time I'd add in a friend depending on the job!

She specifically asked for my last job's reference as it was the most relevant to the job I was interviewing for. The others were similarly relevant, but the last position had much more responsibility and she was interviewing for a role with similar responsibilities on top of the normal duties. I can understand that she wanted the most relevant reference.

starlit

I wouldn't get rid of it off your CV since it was a long term of employment now if it means you need to get a new job asap and you have good refs previously then I leave that job out. Land a new one and stick with that.

Explain the gap in the CV if they ask but you could always just say you wanted a career break or something or you went travelling or what ever, depending on your field maybe add in freelance or something substitute it for your recent position you wouldn't have to worry about having to back up your employers details. Just add in what you did in the job/responsibilities you don't even have to mention your previous employer, ask a friend for a character ref.

starlit

LyndaMcL wrote: »

She specifically asked for my last job's reference as it was the most relevant to the job I was interviewing for. The others were similarly relevant, but the last position had much more responsibility and she was interviewing for a role with similar responsibilities on top of the normal duties. I can understand that she wanted the most relevant reference.

Oh right, so you were a bit stuck really you had to give it to her since it relevant to the job you were being interviewed for. I see. Maybe instead of adding in your employers details, add in freelance/worked from home? Save the hassle of mentioning them at all. Some people that do the jobbridges don't even mention they did one or they state about the job but nothing else or not bother to add it in if they had a bad experience. Suppose just be honest I say. Would you do a jobbridge to tie you over until you get another job cause it be a black mark against you again if your previous employer gives you a bad ref.

Maybe apply for a job similar to your other jobs unless its a job that you want now be similar to your last one and the one you were being interviewed for, maybe clarify in future you rather stick with certain refs instead unless they specifically ask.

Mrs OBumble

Thread locked at the OPs request.