to pull or not to pull

49801

how are people deciding whether a calf is too big to pull and its vet time?

The tool I know is...can put hand between calf head and cow when in the birth canal.
Second one is if calf legs are crossing its wedging.

any more?

pakalasa

It's a tough one alright. Vets seem to know as soon as they examine, whether a pull is on or a section.

It's also possible to pull the calf out, one shoulder at a time. "Walking Out" , they call it. You pull more on one leg than the other, as in the top pic below. The lower pic shows equal pulling on both legs.

49801

pakalasa wrote: »

It's a tough one alright. Vets seem to know as soon as they examine, whether a pull is on or a section.

It's also possible to pull the calf out, one shoulder at a time. "Walking Out" , they call it. You pull more on one leg than the other, as in the top pic below. The lower pic shows equal pulling on both legs.

Thanks,
I know that is one technique there for a difficult delivery.

What I really need to do is give some1 a decision tool so they don't proced jacking when its a job for the vet. perferably not in my words!

Situation was a hiefer gone very overdue and a very big calf.
calf was jacked but was a fading calf (hpoxia) and died 10hrs later.
These things happen but I dont think we've learned from it.

vet said hypoxia due to too long calving. My understanding is hypoxia is due to too long and difficult delivery/jacking. But person in question now belives she was calving too long and they just had to jump in with the jack.

pakalasa

http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ilm/proinfo/calving/notes/whentocallforhelp.htm

Table of contents also down at the end, to get to other pages.

Seaba

49801 wrote: »

how are people deciding whether a calf is too big to pull and its vet time?

The tool I know is...can put hand between calf head and cow when in the birth canal.
Second one is if calf legs are crossing its wedging.

any more?

I am not really answering your question directly but we would have a feel around in side, have a feel of the size of the feet, head etc, think of the breed she is in calf too, what size of calf she normally brings, then think of the cow and if she is a good calver or had trouble in the past calving and then decide what to do.
We always go with the VET if in doubt - €60 approx to the VET (if a section is not required) is the best money you will ever spend.
I could count on one hand the number of calves we have lost in the last 5 years (15 calves a year roughly). Maybe call the VET 3 times a year.

The neighbour on the other hand puts the jack on everything - over the last 5 years I'd say he has easily lost 6-7 calves a year, plus a few cows each year (20 calves a year approx). Dad hates to see him coming "to give a hand" as he always says put the jack on them and see what happens (never listen to him so he has stopped coming!)

freedominacup

Always remember a rule of thumb given to us in college about using the jack.

"5 mins with a jack is the equivalent of two strong men on ropes for an hour". A section is preferable to tearing an dragging with a jack. I try to use it as sparingly as possible.

I'm actually more likely to use it on a "lazy" cow, one who has fully opened but is refusing to push. In that situation it's just about putting a bit of pressure on her to keep her going only pulling gently as she's pushing. If the jack hasn't the job done on a difficult one after 5 mins I'd be thinking it's vet time assuming a reasonable time has passed since the cow started calving and you have seen her working without getting results. When you're finished you want a live fit cow and a live healthy calf. With a suckler at the moment you're talking about a package worth north of €1500 and a vet call out of less than €100. Vets are experts at difficult calving. As our guy said to us last year when he'd just used the jack to get the job done and we were feeling a bit sheepish about having called him when he made it look so easy "I never get a handy one, nobody calls me if it's all going well". At best we're good midwives and should know our limits. If there's any doubt there's no doubt.

Rovi

freedominacup wrote: »

Vets are experts at difficult calving. As our guy said to us last year when he'd just used the jack to get the job done and we were feeling a bit sheepish about having called him when he made it look so easy "I never get a handy one, nobody calls me if it's all going well".

That reminds me of one time years ago when the vet was out doing a full herd TB test, and he had his 7 or 8 year old son with him.
We had a cow calving in a pen handy to the crush/collecting yard so that we could keep an eye on her while the test was going on.
She was a fine big roomy young cow having a Limousin calf, which she spat out with ease after the usual preliminaries of lying down/standing up/walking around in circles, and she had it licked and up looking to suckle in a few minutes.
The vet's son watched all this with his mouth hanging open in awe, and I asked the vet: "Surely he's seen a cow calving before?"
"He's seen dozens of them" said the vet, "just never one that calved by herself."

manjou

What i do is leave cow long enough to calve on her own .Then put the jack on her its an old t bar one so cant apply to much pressure on my own.Jack a few times to put pressure on then push down on end of jack .If calf does not move with this then ring the vet as reckon best money spent havent lost calf due to calving problems in 5 years since doing this.Vet out 4 times last year out of 50 calvings all alive including 2 set of twins.The calf will last alot longer in the cow than hanging caught outside waiting for the vet.

micky mouse

:eek:"Vets are experts at calving".My neighbour who would not be the best calving cows asked me down one night .I handled the cow and told him not a hope that cow will calve that calf.Diffo a section i said .He rang his vet (a good thick chap who is an expert at charging).Landed out and insisted that she would calf with the jack (while saying to me is it me or you thats the vet).Broke the calfs legs and the cow never got up.

1chippy

Do any of you lads ever induce the cows early if you know the calf is from a hard calver?

micky mouse

I know a lad that induces a lot of his cows.Using lim and blue bulls.As soon as time up he injects .Reckons 2 or 3 extra weeks growing inside the cow can be dangerous.I dont agree with his thinking at all.Mentioned it to my vet he said can be problems with retained afterbirths when you inject and also an odd time cow might not open up to calve

1chippy

Sounds like the lad that i was talking to too. breeds a good share of pedigrees too.

Bizzum

When to get the Vet is a judgement call. I would make the decision on a few factors, using my experience, having handled the heifer/cow.
I would be looking for progress and when I feel that there is no or very slow progress I would like to be finding out why.
We had three sections last year, I handled all and made the call, I didn't give the Vet my opinion untill he handled the three and to be honest they were easy calls, the calf was never coming out route one!
The difficult ones are the one's that you think will come, and do come until the hips stop the show. It's too late to be ringing the Vet then. So it goes back to where I started: When to get the Vet is a judgement call.

Figerty

Bizzum wrote: »

When to get the Vet is a judgement call. I would make the decision on a few factors, using my experience, having handled the heifer/cow.
I would be looking for progress and when I feel that there is no or very slow progress I would like to be finding out why.
We had three sections last year, I handled all and made the call, I didn't give the Vet my opinion untill he handled the three and to be honest they were easy calls, the calf was never coming out route one!
The difficult ones are the one's that you think will come, and do come until the hips stop the show. It's too late to be ringing the Vet then. So it goes back to where I started: When to get the Vet is a judgement call.

My vet told me that, and I agree, that if the cow can't put the calf's nose out then call him. He is dead right. Better €50 to the vet than a dead calf.

manjou

Figerty wrote: »

My vet told me that, and I agree, that if the cow can't put the calf's nose out then call him. He is dead right. Better €50 to the vet than a dead calf.

+1 and not havea cow lying in a field.They are to valuable to lose them.Better 50 euro than 50 to knacker and 1500 to replace them.

pakalasa

My neighbour asked me to have a look at a heifer that was calving a while back. He said she was calving a while. When I put in my hand, I burst the blister, so I told him she needed more time. I felf what i thought was the head and calves front legs. He wanted to pull, so ropes on and slight pressure with the jack. Hand back in and no sign of head. Only slight jack pressure but still no head. Called vet but she couln't reach head either. End up with a section and dead calf.
Vet reckoned calf was dead about 4 hours. She said that if it was alive, it would wiggle the head into the right position.
What do you think? I think we just pulled too soon. Cow did seem to be well opened up though when we pulled.

freedominacup

pakalasa wrote: »

My neighbour asked me to have a look at a heifer that was calving a while back. He said she was calving a while. When I put in my hand, I burst the blister, so I told him she needed more time. I felf what i thought was the head and calves front legs. He wanted to pull, so ropes on and slight pressure with the jack. Hand back in and no sign of head. Only slight jack pressure but still no head. Called vet but she couln't reach head either. End up with a section and dead calf.
Vet reckoned calf was dead about 4 hours. She said that if it was alive, it would wiggle the head into the right position.
What do you think? I think we just pulled too soon. Cow did seem to be well opened up though when we pulled.

I'd say the vet was right. Fairly common for calves to kill themselves in the last few days of pregnancy by breaking the cord maneuvering themselves into position. Could have been a whole range of problems though.