Break even point

Markcheese

Is there a passenger level that IR have set to break even or make a profit on a service or line basis ...
I'm sure some lines are pretty much at full use , but it costs the same amount to keep say the cork midleton line open weather 1 train a day uses it or 100 trains a day use it ...
But for say the intercity routes, could they up the number of trains and drop the cost of tickets to get higher seat occupancy levels and more revenue or would the running costs go up out of all proportion... ?
Also by speeding up journey times and train turnaround time would they save money or just increase costs ?( I assume a train crew can/will only do 1 return intercity journey in a shift no matter how quick the service)

dowlingm

In an ideal world Irish public transport would be re-organised to a model where local transport authorities ran the routes and contracted the delivery of them under a model similar to that employed for the airline PSOs or a model where the authority raked in the fares and paid the operator a fixed fee. This would allow for local buses to become feeders to the railhead and for current 2/3 car services to become 4/6 car, and buses would operate counterpeak services where a railcar is too expensive to use using an integrated timetable.

Let's take the example of the BE East Cork 240/241/260/261 feeders which run parallel to the Midleton line all the way into Parnell Place. Those buses could be dropping people to Midleton and Carrigtwohill stations and then belting down the N25/JLT/South Ring to the Airport, CIT, Ringaskiddy, Douglas, Mahon Point and other places through which the City Centre is not the shortest and/or fastest path. The 40 and the 261 which extends to UCC would continue to use Parnell Place particularly for those transferring to onward regional bus services such as Macroom, Bantry etc.

Ideally there would be a further rail stop at Dunkettle to add further network effects such as integration of services to Fermoy/Mitchelstown but there would have to be a grown-up step into the NRA/IE/CCC muddle over the location of that stop.

popebenny16

Markcheese wrote: »

Is there a passenger level that IR have set to break even or make a profit on a service or line basis ...
I'm sure some lines are pretty much at full use , but it costs the same amount to keep say the cork midleton line open weather 1 train a day uses it or 100 trains a day use it ...
But for say the intercity routes, could they up the number of trains and drop the cost of tickets to get higher seat occupancy levels and more revenue or would the running costs go up out of all proportion... ?
Also by speeding up journey times and train turnaround time would they save money or just increase costs ?( I assume a train crew can/will only do 1 return intercity journey in a shift no matter how quick the service)

IE dont publish a line by line or route breakdown.

Basic thing is that if by break even you mean does any line work a profit form just the farebox and advertising I would say no, given the size of the subvention. What does the best is all down to how you define things, eg, does the Cork mainline include services to/from Limerick if they are not by way of connection, ect.

We know that the minister wants to reduce the sub, and eliminate it altogeter maybe. You are then into the question of how to sweat the assets in order to run the whole operation from fares and advertising. I dont think that is possible and that a sub is essential if we want the railways to be a proper public service.

dowlingm

one of the few self-sufficient systems is Hong Kong MTR but that is because they are heavily engaged in property development - CIE's dabbling in property development has been a disaster by contrast with either getting too little (Spencer Dock) or not getting it done at all (Tara St, Kent, Ceannt)

Markcheese

I doubt we'd see the end of subvention , but even so IR sweating every asset might be required to balance their budget.. The coach companies have shown that there is a demand for inter city travel ( if not for ballybrophy templemore ect) if the service and price are right ...

newmug

I can never understand why it costs so much to run a railway. Where are the money pits, is it diesel, wages, maintenance? If people could build railways from scratch and make them profitable in the 1800's then there's absolutely no reason why it cant be done now. Someone just needs to get the finger out and run things properly methinks.

corktina

t'was a monopoly, pretty much, way back when, and non-unionised too. They had shareholders to answer too, so any waste was likely to be brought before an AGM.

newmug

corktina wrote: »

t'was a monopoly, pretty much, way back when, and non-unionised too. They had shareholders to answer too, so any waste was likely to be brought before an AGM.

A monopoly? And now isnt?

I thought it was the other way around, there were loads of companies competing, LNR, LNER, GWR etc.! Either way, they all would have had the same costs!

corktina

newmug wrote: »

A monopoly? And now isnt?

I thought it was the other way around, there were loads of companies competing, LNR, LNER, GWR etc.! Either way, they all would have had the same costs!

No of course it isn't a monopoly now, there's competition from roads.Motor vehicles didn't exist back then.There was lots of companies then but they didn't compete over the same routes and there was no competition , therefore pretty much a monopoly.

newmug

corktina wrote: »

No of course it isn't a monopoly now, there's competition from roads.Motor vehicles didn't exist back then.There was lots of companies then but they didn't compete over the same routes and there was no competition , therefore pretty much a monopoly.

Ah I see what you're saying! I was thinking WTF, is there some other rail company in Ireland that I've never heard of:P:P:P

Markcheese

Railways were the dot com bubble of their day , investors were hugely excited, most tracks never made a bean... And as soon as buses and trucks came along they started to go bust.... The reason they were nationalised was to try keep a national rail service ....
These days how hard or expensive could it be to run billions worth of rolling stock,( much that'll never roll again) on thousands of km s of line employing thousands while guzzling diesel like there is no tomorrow...

Does Luas make a profit?

dowlingm

Fratello wrote: »

Does Luas make a profit?

Up until recently it made an operating profit. These profits were stashed in reserves which are now being diminished by recent losses. However, this figure is before you account for the cost of the capital expended to build the lines - which is fine actually, it reflects how competing services on the roads do not directly account for the cost of the roads they run on. A service which makes a profit on operating and infrastructure is probably running so far below needed capacity and at such high fares that it would be a pretty poor situation public-policy wise.

LUAS is also a very different animal than the CIE companies - it's more like Aircoach and the other newer entrants which don't have huge legacy costs from an era of higher headcount and does not have the same level of issues around running uneconomic services that the CIE companies do at political demand. You don't see LUAS signs on any bits of abandoned tramway the way CIE/IE signs can be found on overbridges on lines closed for decades.

The problem for IE and the other CIE companies is how to come to a competitive operating position without shearing off the legacy costs, and how that is accomplished without an instant State Aid complaint by the private operators and resistance by the unions who fear a Team Aer Lingus type result.

antoinolachtnai

The problem with rail is that you have to maintain the 'way'. A lot of this maintenance isn't sophisticated or glamorous. It's just expensive to keep the track sound and the way clear and secure.

It begins to make sense if you use the way sufficiently intensively. The problem is that the national routes don't lend themselves to intensive use. They don't have the population.

The future of Irish Rail is probably in urban and suburban rail. That's where you can get the intensive use because of the population and congestion. New track (in tunnel) needs to be laid to capitalise on this because at present, Irish Rail doesn't have a sufficiently well located or integrated network.