Over heard this in the shop this morning

burke027

Hi i myself work in the very lowest end of the public sector and i am sick of these guys complaining and saying "you have a job dont you". So this morning im in the shop in my estate and happen to be standing behind 2 guys i would know to see. These guys are plasters and i remember them once bragging about there job when we were back in the good days claiming to earn in excess of 1500e.
So back to this morning and these guy are in the shop moaning that they have to go to work so early and giving out about the weather.

Are these people for real like get a life, and i know there are plenty more out there like them. The give out and moan but yet i have to just take every hit and tax on the chin, that only works for so long doesnt matter what i get paid now because my outgoings are bearly covered. And these guys then give out about working

bigpoppa

Just try and improve your own situation and try not to worry about what other people think of you and dont worry about them, there is literally no point to it

Zulu

Wut? There's literally no point to this thread.

Ranting & raving is thattaway --->

mickdw

I think they are within their rights to moan about going to work on a cold **** morning.
This is probably made all the worse for them now as instead of 1500 per week, they would probably get less that a third of that.
If they were not mouthing off at you about public sector etc, I don't see the problem.

dvpower

burke027 wrote: »

Are these people for real like get a life, and i know there are plenty more out there like them. The give out and moan but yet i have to just take every hit and tax on the chin

A guaranteed job with a guaranteed pension.
You're not really taking every hit, are you?

martingriff

dvpower wrote: »

A guaranteed job with a guaranteed pension.
You're not really taking every hit, are you?

Ya in 35 more years time for me and it aint as big as you think. Maybe I can go to the bank and say you know in 35 years time I am meant to have a great pension do you mind if I wait.

However it does seem like a people p1ssed me off thread and I need to vent. OP people complain it gets them through the day I bet you do it I know I do it.

Dicky Pride

I find it funny how people always seem to know so much about what people were earning back in the day. I don't think people were really "bragging about earning 1500 a week"....more to do with people labeling them cause it suits whatever rant they're engaging in this week.

RacoonQueen

Why do people think that the public sector pension is huge? It's really not.

Zulu

Try and buy a similar one privately.

Salmon

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Why do people think that the public sector pension is huge? It's really not.

Largely due to a sustained media campaign determined to brand ps workers as the big bad wolf in this banana republic

peadar76

job security means a lot in the current climate

Tombo2001

dvpower wrote: »

A guaranteed job with a guaranteed pension.
You're not really taking every hit, are you?

I'm public sector and I'm currently applying for private sector jobs as the pay rate I'm on now is so poor and the deductions so aggressive compared to what I can get in private sector.

Tombo2001

Zulu wrote: »

Try and buy a similar one privately.

OK Zulu.....you tell me the value of a public sector pension. I work in the public sector, and I honestly dont know what its worth. I;ve tried to value it, I've consulted an actuary on it, and tried to value it reflecting the very large contributions I make.....and i cant. But I'm pretty clear that its not much better than the pension I was getting when I was private sector.

But you seem to be in the know.

So please tell me, how much is it worth.

And if you dont know then leave out the makey-uppery.

howamidifferent

burke027 wrote: »

snip< These guys are plasters > snip

so , a plaster walks into a bar...:D

Zulu

Tombo2001 wrote: »

OK Zulu.....you tell me the value of a public sector pension. ...
And if you dont know then leave out the makey-uppery.

Well, I'll need a little bit more than that. Provide me with the relevant details and I will.
What pension are you on? How long are you on it? I'll need your most recent pension statement, & your salary.

There's no makey-uppery.

martingriff

peadar76 wrote: »

job security means a lot in the current climate

Oh i agree but say that could be coming to an end and not every PS area is secured really.

Tombo2001

Zulu wrote: »

Well, I'll need a little bit more than that. Provide me with the relevant details and I will.
What pension are you on? How long are you on it? I'll need your most recent pension statement, & your salary.

There's no makey-uppery.

there is makey uppery. you dont need details.

you can make assumptions.

30 year old on €40k per annum.

50 year olf on €50k per annum.

Whats their pension worth?

You know or you dont.

Zulu

Tombo2001 wrote: »

there is makey uppery. you dont need details.

In order to value your pension - yes I do.
Perhaps this is the same problem you actuarial friend had. :rolleyes:

you can make assumptions.

You had a problem with make-uppy earlier, and now you want me to make-uppy?

You know or you dont.

What type of pension do they have?

Listen you are clearly talking out of your ar$e. Any actuary would have been able to give you a relative value of your pension (assuming you didn't just fire sh!t at them, like you have me).

Of course you need details. Proper details, not "here is a made up salary".
Giving nonsense to an actuary and expecting a proper response- there's your trouble.

Tombo2001

bluewolf wrote: »

Of course you need details. Proper details, not "here is a made up salary".
Giving nonsense to an actuary and expecting a proper response- there's your trouble.

Why is an assumption necessarily nonsense?

Are there no 30 year olds in the public service earning €30k per annum.

Yes there are.

So then what is their pension worth?

Tombo2001

Zulu wrote: »

In order to value your pension - yes I do.
Perhaps this is the same problem you actuarial friend had. :rolleyes:
You had a problem with make-uppy earlier, and now you want me to make-uppy?
What type of pension do they have?

Listen you are clearly talking out of your ar$e. Any actuary would have been able to give you a relative value of your pension (assuming you didn't just fire sh!t at them, like you have me).

Please leave the foul-mouthed stuff out.

You made a claim that you cant back up.

You havent been able to and you cant.

Your hiding behind this business of "oh I need to see the details".

You dont need to see the details of my salary or my age.

The terms of the public service pension are the same for all staff.

Your claim was in relation to the whole public service.

You cant back it up. Or if you can, then do it.

Zulu

Tombo2001 wrote: »

You made a claim that you cant back up....
You dont need to see the details of my salary or my age....

Clearly you don't understand pensions.

He needs your salary, your age, your service to date, expected average salary throughout career, non-service career breaks, retirement age, joined service on or after the new rules in 1995 (I think there were more after). Oh and if any "added years" have been bought on your behalf assuming you've less than max prospective service.
That's for a PS DB pension. The pension itself.
If he wants to value your pension, assuming you aren't retired, he'll have to do a bit more.

But of course you're more interested in mouthing off than actually having it calculated, or you would have done so already.

Tombo2001

Zulu wrote: »

Clearly you don't understand pensions.

Clearly you cant back up what you said.

Why would you need to though.

You have a ready audience on boards for any sort of public sector bashing. Doesnt matter if you can back up what you say or not.

Tombo2001

bluewolf wrote: »

He needs your salary, your age, your service to date, expected average salary throughout career, non-service career breaks, retirement age, joined service on or after the new rules in 1995 (I think there were more after). Oh and if any "added years" have been bought on your behalf assuming you've less than max prospective service.
That's for a PS DB pension.

Oh all of a sudden he needs this.

You werent saying that when he was making claims about about how much a public service pension was worth earlier on.

You dont need all of that.

You need to know
(i) salary and (ii) age.

The value of the pension earned in a year as a % of that persons salary is what I'm talking about.

If you know that, you can benchmark it easily against private sector equivalents.

Thats all you need to know, but neither of you can tell me.

Frank Black

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Oh all of a sudden he needs this.

You werent saying that when he was making claims about about how much a public service pension was worth earlier on.

You dont need all of that.

You need to know
(i) salary and (ii) age.

The value of the pension earned in a year as a % of that persons salary is what I'm talking about.

If you know that, you can benchmark it easily against private sector equivalents.

Thats all you need to know, but neither of you can tell me.

It's not really all you need to know.
The 'value' of your pension, is what you will be receiving when you reach retirement age - I doubt you even know what this is as it's probably based on your future salary.
Then you'd need to ask an actuary how much it would cost to purchase a retirement fund which would provide the same pension income.
The cost of this retirement fund is what a private sector worker would need in thier pension fund to have the same pension 'value' as you.
Given that a private sector pension fund's worth is going to be based on stock markert performance, it's impossible to say how much a private sector worker would need to be contributing to end up with a similar pension 'value'.

What can be said, with a high degree of certainty, is that the current 'value' of a public sector pension exceeds the amount of contributions made by members of the public sector and would almost certainly exceed (by a large margin) the value of a private sector pension, where the private sector worker has made similar contributions to what you are making.

But given the variables, there is no black and white answer to the question.

Zulu

black francis wrote: »

But given the variables, there is no black and white answer to the question.

I think it's reasonable to suggest the price to pay for such a pension, would be very expensive. (Which is my point)

dvpower

martingriff wrote: »

Ya in 35 more years time for me and it aint as big as you think. Maybe I can go to the bank and say you know in 35 years time I am meant to have a great pension do you mind if I wait.

I didn't say it was big, I only said it was guaranteed.

But the PS pension is quite generous @ 1/80th pa (plus, I think 3/80th pa as a tax free lump sum). I'm not saying public servants don't deserve it or that it should be cut - I'm simply saying that's its a pretty good deal.

tony81

Oh op, no one moans like you public sector workers.. at least the plasterers do something productive instead of just push reams of paper around.

ABajaninCork

Gissa job!

martingriff

tony81 wrote: »

Oh op, no one moans like you public sector workers.. at least the plasterers do something productive instead of just push reams of paper around.

Ya thats all they do those doctors, nurses, firemen, police.

RainyDay

dvpower wrote: »

A guaranteed job with a guaranteed pension.
You're not really taking every hit, are you?

If he's at the bottom end of the public sector pay grades, his 'guaranteed pension' is zero. The standard contributory old-age pension is deducted from any public sector pension. So many staff at low grades get nothing but the standard contributory pension, that they have already paid for via their PRSI. All their pension levies and contributions were for nothing.

Zulu wrote: »

Well, I'll need a little bit more than that. Provide me with the relevant details and I will.
What pension are you on? How long are you on it? I'll need your most recent pension statement, & your salary.

There's no makey-uppery.

If you knew anything substantial about public sector pensions, you'd have referred him to http://cspensions.gov.ie/ straight away. But these calculations don't tell you the full story. They generally exclude the disability/injury cover that is included as standard for many private sector occupational pension schemes, but cost public sector staff hundreds or thousands each year to buy. They generally exclude the risk of government default, and what that might do to your pension, as any Greek public servant will tell you.

Tombo2001

black francis wrote: »

But given the variables, there is no black and white answer to the question.

Thats fine.

And if there's no black and white answer to the question, then people have grounds to go making comments about how much a public sector pension is worth.

Zulu

RainyDay wrote: »

If you knew anything substantial about public sector pensions... ...they generally exclude the risk of government default, and what that might do to your pension, as any Greek public servant will tell you.

But we haven't defaulted, have we? And we're not Greece, are we? And my point still stands, that public sector pensions are working out very expensive for us all.

7/10 for the nice smoke and mirrors effort.
2/10 for the needlessly antagonistic posting style.

Tombo2001

black francis wrote: »

It's not really all you need to know.
The 'value' of your pension, is what you will be receiving when you reach retirement age - I doubt you even know what this is as it's probably based on your future salary.
Then you'd need to ask an actuary how much it would cost to purchase a retirement fund which would provide the same pension income.
The cost of this retirement fund is what a private sector worker would need in thier pension fund to have the same pension 'value' as you.
Given that a private sector pension fund's worth is going to be based on stock markert performance, it's impossible to say how much a private sector worker would need to be contributing to end up with a similar pension 'value'.

What can be said, with a high degree of certainty, is that the current 'value' of a public sector pension exceeds the amount of contributions made by members of the public sector and would almost certainly exceed (by a large margin) the value of a private sector pension, where the private sector worker has made similar contributions to what you are making.

But given the variables, there is no black and white answer to the question.

So you would compare the public service pension to how much you would have to invest in a retirement fund that would generate the same level of income.

There is a big big big difference between the two.

If I have a public service pension that generates €20k a year, then I get €20k a year for my years of retirement.

If I have a retirement fund worth €400k that generates €20k a year in say interest, then I have €400k. I can liquidate that amount and have €400k sitting in the bank. I can pass it on to my children. I can earn €20k a year off it.

I know which one I'd rather have.

Frank Black

Tombo2001 wrote: »

So you would compare the public service pension to how much you would have to invest in a retirement fund that would generate the same level of income.

There is a big big big difference between the two.

If I have a public service pension that generates €20k a year, then I get €20k a year for my years of retirement.

If I have a retirement fund worth €400k that generates €20k a year in say interest, then I have €400k. I can liquidate that amount and have €400k sitting in the bank. I can pass it on to my children. I can earn €20k a year off it.

I know which one I'd rather have.

I believe that those in the public service are entitled to take some of thier pension in the form of a lump sum.
There are also limits in the private sector as to how much can be drawn down from a retirement sum in the form of a lump sum - usually this is based on some multiple of your final year salary. So saying you can have €400K sitting in the bank if you want is unlikly to be true in the majority of cases for the scenario you've outlined.
Besides, i think you're missing the point, which is on the different contributory amounts required by a public service vs private sector worker to ensure the same pension income.

RainyDay

Zulu wrote: »

But we haven't defaulted, have we? And we're not Greece, are we? And my point still stands, that public sector pensions are working out very expensive for us all.

7/10 for the nice smoke and mirrors effort.
2/10 for the needlessly antagonistic posting style.

Risk is risk. You're choosing to ignore the risk that doesn't suit your argument. And you're choosing to label a post that doesn't suit your argument as antagonistic. You might be better sticking to the numbers.

Zulu

RainyDay wrote: »

Risk is risk. You're choosing to ignore the risk that doesn't suit your argument.

No, I'm not. The risk of default doesn't lessen the value of the public sector pension, so likening us to Greece, or our public sector to Greece's is simply a "slight of hand" effort to hide from the evident fact.

And you're choosing to label a post that doesn't suit your argument as antagonistic.

I was labeling this:

If you knew anything substantial about public sector pensions

as needlessly antagonistic.

You might be better sticking to the numbers.

When the number are produced then we'll look at sticking to them, in the meantime, you'd be better off sticking to the facts.

RainyDay

Zulu wrote: »

No, I'm not. The risk of default doesn't lessen the value of the public sector pension, so likening us to Greece, or our public sector to Greece's is simply a "slight of hand" effort to hide from the evident fact.

I was labeling this: as needlessly antagonistic.

When the number are produced then we'll look at sticking to them, in the meantime, you'd be better off sticking to the facts.

It's quite ironic to see the poster who came out with

Zulu wrote: »

Wut? There's literally no point to this thread.
Ranting & raving is thattaway --->

and moved on to

Zulu wrote: »

Listen you are clearly talking out of your ar$e. Any actuary would have been able to give you a relative value of your pension (assuming you didn't just fire sh!t at them, like you have me).

accusing others of being 'needlessly antagonistic. It seems that like many bullies, you're able to dish it out, but not able to take it.

So let's stick to the facts indeed. There is a risk that the Irish Government will default at some stage within the lifetime of current public sector staff. Such a default would have a very substantial effect on the pensions of those current staff. Unlike investment risk with private sector pensions, such a default is completely outside the control of the individual staff members. Now we could have an interesting debate about likelihood of this risk, but certainly, the risk exists. And you're doing a 'see no evil' monkey trick of pretending that there is no risk, and ignoring the other inconvenient facts of public sector pensions. Stop reading the Sunday Indo and stick to the facts.

Zulu

RainyDay wrote: »

It seems that like many bullies, you're able to dish it out, but not able to take it.

Oh right, I'm a bully is it? Personal attacks aren't going to win you any arguments. They're also against the charter.

RainyDay

Zulu wrote: »

Oh right, I'm a bully is it? Personal attacks aren't going to win you any arguments. They're also against the charter.

Please withdraw your allegation of a personal attack. I didn't attack you (though your early posts that I quoted above might well fit this description. I didn't say you were a bully. Mind you, if the cap fits....

Mrs OBumble

Time, gentlemen. Way too much uncivil behavour here, from way too many people. And it's off-topic, sounding more like investment advice than work and jobs.