The Michael and Leo Spat

Bearcat

Intemperance is getting the better of Michael and maybe he's given up trying to be mr nice as I'd say he knows already the result of his take over ambitions of EIN.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sparks-fly-as-ryanair-boss-trades-barbs-with-varadkar-in-public-spat-3315631.html

TRANSPORT Minister Leo Varadkar and Michael O'Leary have traded barbs in front of an international audience.

The Ryanair boss admonished the minister for lack of "bloody action" – which led Mr Varadkar to retort that a "money grabbing" Mr O'Leary needs "a new song to sing".

Mr O'Leary kicked off the row during an aviation conference in the Convention Centre in Dublin when he dubbed the Government's 'Gathering' initiative as 'The Grabbing' and launched a blistering series of attacks on everyone from unions to business groups.

He said that while he thought The Gathering was a good idea in principle, he lashed out at plans by the Dublin Airport Authority to raise its charges next year and at hikes in bus and rail fares that have just been introduced.

In a tirade that left few of the usual Ryanair targets for criticism unscathed, Mr O'Leary slammed the fact that the Government is aiming to attract 325,000 extra tourists to Ireland next year.

He said Ryanair has previously offered to grow combined passenger traffic at Dublin, Shannon and Cork airports by five million a year, but the plan was rejected.

"I think it's very important that we do have a conference on aviation strategy because this is a country that clearly doesn't have any growth strategy," Mr O'Leary told the conference.

He labelled Mr Varadkar – who had spoken just minutes earlier – as the "Lyons Tea" of Irish politics. "All talk, more talk. . . but no bloody action."

Mr Varadkar later dismissed Mr O'Leary's comments.

"Michael needs a new song to sing," he said afterwards as he unveiled plans to separate Shannon Airport from the Dublin Airport Authority.

"We've been hearing much the same old story in the past couple of years.

"The Ryanair position on money-grabbing is that everyone else is ripping you off whether it's airports, governments, other airlines."

But Mr O'Leary was in particularly virulent form, calling business employers' group IBEC "a failed organisation" and the Irish Tourism Industry Confederation a home for "bewildered former DAA employees".

He claimed Aer Lingus is a small airline with a strategy of "getting smaller".

Mr O'Leary told international delegates that it was his first time visiting the Convention Centre in Dublin.

"It's my first time in the National Convention Centre – the second big white elephant building in this country after the DAA's T2," he said. "For those of you who are visiting this country and want to realise why we are broke, you're sitting in it."

But some of the participants at the show retaliated.

Aer Lingus chief executive Christoph Mueller pointed out that the airline's traffic has been growing, not falling in the past couple of years. Ryanair's passenger numbers in Ireland have actually fallen, he said.

Irish Tourism Industry Confederation chief Eamonn McKeon also rounded on the Ryanair chief.

"Keep your eye on the wider picture," he told the audience. "The picture is much larger than just Ryanair."

Shannon gets plan for 1,000 jobs: Business Page 33

- John Mulligan

ResearchWill

He labelled Mr Varadkar – who had spoken just minutes earlier – as the "Lyons Tea" of Irish politics. "All talk, more talk. . . but no bloody action."

You have to love him, at least he stirs it up.

Tenger

MoL is starting to be a PR liability for FR.

He seems to work on the principle that if you shout lies loud enough and repeatedly then the public will take them as fact.

basill

Just showing his true colours and giving up on the pretenses. No need to try and play the nice guy as the game is up on AL. Only bit left to run is if the UK competition will force him to sell his shares and really put the boot in.

LeftBase

As we said back in my school days:

HAVE A KNOCK!!

John_Mc

basill wrote: »

Just showing his true colours and giving up on the pretenses. No need to try and play the nice guy as the game is up on AL. Only bit left to run is if the UK competition will force him to sell his shares and really put the boot in.

Nonsense. Aer Lingus is still profitable and the preference for many customers. Their only problem is the massive pension deficit.

I, like many others, despise Ryanair and will pay extra to fly with their competition. It's not that much extra these days either - Ryanair are no longer a cheap airline to fly with.

bluecode

The reality is that MoL is right. He's simply highlighting in his own inimitable way that the way things are done in this country is a joke. Not just in aviation. The whole industry is chock full of time serving incompetents.

The success of Ryanair speaks for itself.

It's typical of the attitude in this country that while we have one of the most successful and profitable airlines in Europe. All we can do is knock it and try and tear it down. To the extent that some people will refuse to fly with them and spend more money on their less successful rivals. Begrudgery!

You don't have to like O'Leary to agree with him even if you don't like his style.

We need more like him in this country. If there were we wouldn't be in the shambles we're in now.

John_Mc

bluecode wrote: »

The reality is that MoL is right. He's simply highlighting in his own inimitable way that the way things are done in this country is a joke. Not just in aviation. The whole industry is chock full of time serving incompetents.

The success of Ryanair speaks for itself.

It's typical of the attitude in this country that while we have one of the most successful and profitable airlines in Europe. All we can do is knock it and try and tear it down. To the extent that some people will refuse to fly with them and spend more money on their less successful rivals. Begrudgery!

You don't have to like O'Leary to agree with him even if you don't like his style.

We need more like him in this country. If there were we wouldn't be in the shambles we're in now.

How is he right exactly? Tourism has taken a hammering for the last few yours because of the global recession, and "The Gathering" is a scheme aimed at helping that sector.

If the government did nothing then MOL would be criticizing them for it. As usual, like all populist politicians, he's saying what people want to hear.


As for MOLS success: He copied the Southwest model, but made it so that service didn't matter. As far as he's concerned, a cheap ticket means you're open to abuse and if you don't adhere to the ever growing number of ridiculous rules then you get charged through the nose.

Try flying Southwest or Jetblue, which are both low cost models, and tell me that Ryanair are comparable.

Ryanair have used the TESCO approach to bullying airports into lower charges and have aggressively sold tickets at a loss so that they could eliminate the competition.

Only a few months ago he was ranting and raving about the airport departure tax and how it was going to destroy tourism in Ireland. Then a few months later they introduce ANOTHER charge for using a credit card. See the contradiction here?

brandon_flowers

bluecode wrote: »

The reality is that MoL is right. He's simply highlighting in his own inimitable way that the way things are done in this country is a joke. Not just in aviation. The whole industry is chock full of time serving incompetents.

The success of Ryanair speaks for itself.

It's typical of the attitude in this country that while we have one of the most successful and profitable airlines in Europe. All we can do is knock it and try and tear it down. To the extent that some people will refuse to fly with them and spend more money on their less successful rivals. Begrudgery!

You don't have to like O'Leary to agree with him even if you don't like his style.

We need more like him in this country. If there were we wouldn't be in the shambles we're in now.

O'Leary is beating his own drum here but if you strip away the bravado of how he says it he is saying what the whole country wants to say but won't.

And I hate this sh1te of people saying the place would be a wreck if he was running the country. Ireland needs people with balls and conviction to be running the place who will make the drastic changes needed. (Just to clarify I am speaking about the country here and not EI)

Not the pussy footing politics that is going on with every little issue in this country.

And to be a little on topic, I am not sure MoL has blatantly lied anywhere in his speech.

Shamrock231

bluecode wrote: »

It's typical of the attitude in this country that while we have one of the most successful and profitable airlines in Europe.

Two. We have two of the most successful airlines in Europe, Aer Lingus is doing very well at the moment, and is fairing out much better than other airlines in Europe such as AF, SAS, Iberia etc. We're also home to many many leasing companies which are also very profitable. Aviation seems to be one of these industries we're good at but we fail to recognise this.

Milan Cobian

To the extent that some people will refuse to fly with them and spend more money on their less successful rivals. Begrudgery!

No, it's called customer choice. When making any spending decision, food, clothing, drink etc, do you automatically choose the offering of the most successful company, regardless of your personal taste preferences? In any spending decision, people assess a variety of factors, such as product satisfaction, utility and perceived value etc etc. If that means they choose another airline to ryanair, it's because they've made a rational economic decision as they see it. You may use different factors to assess what's rational, but they're simply your personal preferences and they're no more or less valid than anyone else's.
It's called economics not begrudgery.
Never forget that the goal of ryanair is to deny you the ability to make a choice when leaving this country.

Tenger

brandon_flowers wrote: »

......
And to be a little on topic, I am not sure MoL has blatantly lied anywhere in his speech.

He said EI were getting smaller.......over the past 3 years EI have been increasing their pax numbers and market share ex-Ireland. (as an aside EI are one of only 3 Euro airlines who are currently making money on short haul flying)


T2 is a white elephant in the same way that a 3 lane M50 is.........future proof planning. I'm not sure if he claimed it cost 1.2Bn this time.

He claims he was going to increase traffic by 5m, FR have no actual figures to back that up. It uses the same FR marketing ploy where they assume they will carry 80% capacity on the route. No mention is made of the waived fees' FR expect for this 'service'......And no mention is made of money cming into the ocuntry, MoL expacts the airports to be grateful for his aircraft. 1 inbound tourist from ORD is probably worth more than 20 passengers to FAO in terms of contribution to the region.

Katunga

The main reason EI profits are up is from selling aircraft. The airline is doomed unless they prioritize transatlantic flights as the main transport provided by them and start new TransA roots.

The separation of Shannon from DAA is a good thing but its not being done the wright way it should have been sold off like MO'L said.
The separation could turn SNN into a transatlantic Hub and make use of the pre-clearance or turn it into a maintenance airport.

Tenger

Katunga wrote: »

The main reason EI profits are up is from selling aircraft. The airline is doomed unless they prioritize transatlantic flights as the main transport provided by them and start new TransA roots.

How many aircraft have they sold in the last 18 months..........1 with another on the market. Not sure how 2 aircraft can generate a cash reserve of 1Bn. In fact the EI fleet has increased over the last 2 years.

They have a large portion of their shorthaul network feeding into their longhaul network, so much so that they can increase their weekly flights by approx 15% next summer at little to no risk to themselves. They have displayed over 80% loadfactor on their T/A routes all year. I can't see how they can do much better without exposing themselves to risks (ie leasing in more aircraft to launch new routes when they already serve those markets indirectly through interline deals)

New routes you say....well all the new routes into Ireland recently have been with B757's, which is the bargain basement aircraft for entry into a new mid-haul market. A lot less risky than a A330.

So are you advocating that an currently profitable airline risks starting a loss making route in the middle of a recession with an aircraft that is too large? I'll turn this back on you.....would MoL agree to that risk?

Katunga

I didn't say new TA in Ireland did I, I was on about other EU countries. the Irish market is to small.

Shamrock231

Katunga wrote: »

I didn't say new TA in Ireland did I, I was on about other EU countries. the Irish market is to small.

Aer Lingus is an Irish airline, its market is in Ireland, Its brand is primarily recognised in Ireland, to attempt to operate long haul out of other airports would be suicidal. Their current set up for TA ops is working really well, taking passengers from other countries to DUB then onwards to the US. Just look at the LGW base as an example of what would happen if they tried to operate out of another airport where they're not well recognised, only this time it'd be with an A330 and not an A320, which would be even worse for them. They need to work on their feeding traffic at the moment as that seems to be where the money is.

Katunga

Shamrock231 wrote: »

Aer Lingus is an Irish airline, its market is in Ireland, Its brand is primarily recognised in Ireland, to attempt to operate long haul out of other airports would be suicidal. Their current set up for TA ops is working really well, taking passengers from other countries to DUB then onwards to the US. Just look at the LGW base as an example of what would happen if they tried to operate out of another airport where they're not well recognised, only this time it'd be with an A330 and not an A320, which would be even worse for them. They need to work on their feeding traffic at the moment as that seems to be where the money is.

LGW is an Ideal location to try Direct transatlantic outside IRL as its recognized just provide the service at a competitive price.

Shamrock231

Katunga wrote: »

LGW is an Ideal location to try Direct transatlantic outside IRL as its recognized just provide the service at a competitive price.

LGW is already saturated with long haul airlines and it would have no feed to EI services from a short haul network like DUB does. It simply wouldn't work.

Katunga

Shamrock231 wrote: »

LGW is already saturated with long haul airlines and it would have no feed to EI services from a short haul network like DUB does. It simply wouldn't work.

That's why you beat them on price look at Ryanair and how they built up.

basill

John mc - by "the game is up" I meant he won't be allowed by the EU to purchase the remaining shares in EI.

Stealthirl

Maybe its just me but i feel EI would benefit from going back to the US west cost even on a limited scheduled

orionm_73

A limited schedule wouldn't be attractive to business travellers or cargo. If the benefit was so obvious do you not think EI would be back in there already? I'm sure their route analysis team are constantly reviewing the costs of operating to the west coast and other destinations and until its shown it could make a profit, you won't see LAX or SFO on the network.

EI are actively growing their transfer business with extra flights to BOS and ORD, they need double daily flights so people can connect to AND from the European network. A limited schedule to the west coast could never provide that connectivity.

Tenger

Katunga wrote: »

I didn't say new TA in Ireland did I, I was on about other EU countries. the Irish market is to small.

Somebody please give katunga a link to the history of EI outside their home market. EI have limited presence in LGW and BHD. They hoped to do better in LGW but are slowly building up the market awareness. LGW is home to both BA and VS longhaul not to mention all the other carriers that serve that airport. SO you think that EI can just pop over an A330 and sell tickets at rock bottom prices?

FR do well because they saturate a market with low fares AND multiple flights. The are able to do this thanks to the heavily discounted aircraft they got 10 years ago. The enter a market getting charges waived for the first few years and/or a set up cost subsidy from the airport. They don't go into an already saturated airport. They employ short term contract workers who they can lay off after 6 months if the route doens't work out. Its not that FR offer low fares, its that they invest so little money into a new route that they can afford to close 40% of these after 4-6 months without damaging the overall company revenue flow.

EI have 6 A330 in DUB, again I ask.....are you suggesting that they remove 1 of these from a currently profitable route ex-DUB to gamble on getting traffic out of LGW with low fares? (thus little if any profit) This doesn't even take into account the operational pax problems that can emerge with tech issues and/or delays and cancellations. Would Mol as a major shareholder be happy with this decision?




I'm sick of ppl who persist in these aviation fantasies even after the logistical/financial constraints have been pointed out to them. By all means ask about the West Coast and/or Oz, but accept the logical answer you get even if you don't like it.

basill

Tenger you are banging your head against the wall.

Unfortunately most people have been seduced by FR's marketing hype over cheap fares to sh*tholes miles from anywhere. They have no concept of the costs involved in operating a longhaul aircraft to a proper airport in a civilised country with appropriately trained crews and the mix of revenues that are required from first/business/economy and cargo in order to make a route profitable.

Mention yields or seat mile costs and they will roll their eyes.

Bearcat