Lease Discrepancies - Attempting to Terminate

Smithwicks Man

Hi, so basically I'm in my 4th and final year of college and moved into student accommodation in Dublin City. I had to pay the sum of the first semester (2200e) plus a 500 euro deposit before moving in and only signed the lease upon receiving my key, after payment was cleared.

I no longer wish to stay here for the second semester as I've found somewhere much cheaper. Now if this was a proper lease at least I'd know where I stood but there are some discrepancies that may provide me with a loophole.

The lease does state ''No refund of any pre-payment shall be made in the event of early vacation of the premises or early termination of this tenancy agreement. In that event X shall be able to charge the full cancellation fee of 500e (Deposit)

Below this is my signature, followed by the signature of one of their employees as a "witness" and finally the section which is to be ''signed for and on behalf of X by its duly authorised representative" was left blank with no signature.

Now I know for a fact they have their own copy of this lease and I have signed that and they could do likewise at any stage but does the fact that they never signed my copy of the lease give me any legal firepower if I were to leave early and try to reclaim my deposit?


As well as this, the following section titled ''The period of tenancy'' simply reads as follows -

"The period of tenancy is from the ___ day of ___ 2012 to the ___ day of ___ 2013 inclusive or such extension thereof as X and the Tenant may agree in writing to subject however, to the earlier determination as herein provided. If however the Tenant vacates the Premises during the Period of the Tenancy, no refund will be made.''

"Agreed Rent: 1st Semester 2200e, 2nd Semester 1870e''

They never filled in the period of lease at all? Does this make this lease void?
I do know, however, that it's supposed to be 24/09/'12 to 04/02/13 and then 04/02/13 to mid May because I saw it somewhere before ( their website perhaps).

I'd really appreciate any help with this because I can't really afford to stay in this place any longer and a) if I'm entitled to leave on the 4th of February after Semester 1 and receive my Deposit back I will do so (i haven't paid for Semester 2 yet) or b) if the lease is void and I can give them 28 days notice and leave at the start of January and get back 3 weeks or a months rent (which I think I'd be entitled to if the lease is void? ) and my security deposit then I will definitely be doing this.

Thanks for any and all help! I'd like to avoid a legal battle and just get whatever I'm entitled to!

Reloc8

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Now I know for a fact they have their own copy of this lease and I have signed that and they could do likewise at any stage but does the fact that they never signed my copy of the lease give me any legal firepower if I were to leave early and try to reclaim my deposit?

No. You can't rely on their failure to sign your copy of the document where you have signed the contract yourself.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

"The period of tenancy is from the ___ day of ___ 2012 to the ___ day of ___ 2013 inclusive or such extension thereof as X and the Tenant may agree in writing to subject however, to the earlier determination as herein provided. If however the Tenant vacates the Premises during the Period of the Tenancy, no refund will be made.''

"Agreed Rent: 1st Semester 2200e, 2nd Semester 1870e''

They never filled in the period of lease at all? Does this make this lease void?

No. The parties including yourself were clear as to what was agreed regarding the period of the lease and the money to be paid as rent, as evidenced by the below.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I do know, however, that it's supposed to be 24/09/'12 to 04/02/13 and then 04/02/13 to mid May because I saw it somewhere before ( their website perhaps).

Its permissible for a court to look to additional documentation/oral evidence where the terms of an agreed contract are not entire as to detail of the arrangements between the parties, but the important components are clearly agreed.

Will you have been in occupation for 6 months come February ? If so you will probably have a right to sub-let assuming the other criteria for a Part IV tenancy are met (residential tenancies Act 2004).

In practice, most landlords will want a direct relationship with their tenant so where a Part IV right to sub-let arises they will look to the tenant to find an appropriate person to come into the lease and then contract directly with them.

In any event, your best bet here is to start talking to your landlord about your position indicating that you can't afford to stay on. With the rental market being so strong they might agree to you looking for a replacement tenant now. At the end of the day, all your landlord really cares about is that he has a performing lease, subject to the tenant not being a lunatic/scumbag.

If that's you, he/she is happy, if its someone like you at the same rate, he/she is still happy. Have a chat to them about whether they would have a problem with a new tenant replacing you if you source the tenant.

Also contact the private residential tenancies board to see if you'll be entitled to sub-let after staying there for 6 months. There's no need to raise that with the landlord at this stage (would be unnecessarily antagonistic to start off with an assertion that 'Ima sublet this whether you like it or not').

Milk & Honey

A lot of student accommodation is not comprehended by the Residential Tenancies Act. This is certainly the case with purpose built on-campus accommodation or accommodation built under the Section 50 scheme.

Smithwicks Man

Reloc8 wrote: »

No. You can't rely on their failure to sign your copy of the document where you have signed the contract yourself.




No. The parties including yourself were clear as to what was agreed regarding the period of the lease and the money to be paid as rent, as evidenced by the below.




Its permissible for a court to look to additional documentation/oral evidence where the terms of an agreed contract are not entire as to detail of the arrangements between the parties, but the important components are clearly agreed.

Will you have been in occupation for 6 months come February ? If so you will probably have a right to sub-let assuming the other criteria for a Part IV tenancy are met (residential tenancies Act 2004).

In practice, most landlords will want a direct relationship with their tenant so where a Part IV right to sub-let arises they will look to the tenant to find an appropriate person to come into the lease and then contract directly with them.

In any event, your best bet here is to start talking to your landlord about your position indicating that you can't afford to stay on. With the rental market being so strong they might agree to you looking for a replacement tenant now. At the end of the day, all your landlord really cares about is that he has a performing lease, subject to the tenant not being a lunatic/scumbag.

If that's you, he/she is happy, if its someone like you at the same rate, he/she is still happy. Have a chat to them about whether they would have a problem with a new tenant replacing you if you source the tenant.

Also contact the private residential tenancies board to see if you'll be entitled to sub-let after staying there for 6 months. There's no need to raise that with the landlord at this stage (would be unnecessarily antagonistic to start off with an assertion that 'Ima sublet this whether you like it or not').

Thanks a lot for your detailed reply! I appreciate it! I have only been living here for 2 and a have months so sub-letting isn't viable I don't think but I have looked anyway and have not found anybody to sub'let to.

As regards the bold, as far as I was concerned when I signed the lease it was only for the first semester. I knew at the time that they were expecting everyone to stay for the full academic year but at no point did they point that out at all, therefore does my payment of 2200e not show I only intended staying for 1 semester and is their failure to outline the period of lease beyond that not their mistake?

I feel I am legally entitled to my deposit back if I leave on February 4th as I never agreed to stay on for both semesters and it was never clearly stated on their part that that is what we were agreeing to

Smithwicks Man

Milk & Honey wrote: »

A lot of student accommodation is not comprehended by the Residential Tenancies Act. This is certainly the case with purpose built on-campus accommodation or accommodation built under the Section 50 scheme.

Thanks for your reply! Could you please explain what this means basically? Am I not entitled to the normal tenants rights?

Reloc8

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I feel I am legally entitled to my deposit back if I leave on February 4th as I never agreed to stay on for both semesters and it was never clearly stated on their part that that is what we were agreeing to

Well, go to them and say that. I don't see that you need legal advice to do that.

Based on what you said earlier, its clear to me at any rate that you knew what you were getting into when you took up the lease, so, y'know...'luck to you.

Milk & Honey

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Thanks for your reply! Could you please explain what this means basically? Am I not entitled to the normal tenants rights?

Pretty much. Check with your students union regarding your situation.

Kosseegan

I think it is more likely to be a licence to reside rather than a lease.

Smithwicks Man

Talked to them about it, no luck. They want payment for the 2nd semester in the next week. Dunno what to do as I feel I'm entitled to my deposit back as I never agreed to stay for both semesters but the only advice I've gotten is on here! Thanks for all the replies, gonna bide my time and see how things go after I don't pay (they're struggling to fill the rooms). Thanks again!

Reloc8

Kosseegan wrote: »

I think it is more likely to be a licence to reside rather than a lease.

So...?

davo10

Read the title and the posts if this thread, where are the "discrepancies"? And if you rent a student accommodation surely there is a reasonable expectation that it is for the academic year unless otherwise stated in the contract. OP if the shoe was on the other foot and you expected the rental period to be the student year, what would you say if LL said you had to leave after first semester and threw you out on the street with no where to go?

Smithwicks Man

davo10 wrote: »

Read the title and the posts if this thread, where are the "discrepancies"? And if you rent a student accommodation surely there is a reasonable expectation that it is for the academic year unless otherwise stated in the contract. OP if the shoe was on the other foot and you expected the rental period to be the student year, what would you say if LL said you had to leave after first semester and threw you out on the street with no where to go?

You see the application was all filled out online. And on that online application you could select between paying for the accommodation for the full year or you could pay for the first semester. At no stage was it ever pointed out to me that I was signing a lease for the full semester and ''reasonable expectation'' on their part means nothing. What is the point in signing a lease if they are not going to bother writing in key details like the period of lease. I have recently learned that without doubt I would get my deposit back if i followed a legal route but that it would cost me more than the deposit itself. So much hassle.

Reloc8

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

I have recently learned that without doubt I would get my deposit back if i followed a legal route but that it would cost me more than the deposit itself. So much hassle.

Interested as to what qualified lawyer gave you that assurance. Well, I say interested, I mean amused.

davo10

OP was the option to pay year in three instalments ie each samester, or full year in advance. If it was three instalments, that does not necessarily mean you could opt out after each samester, it may just mean you could spread out the payments.

Smithwicks Man

Reloc8 wrote: »

Interested as to what qualified lawyer gave you that assurance. Well, I say interested, I mean amused.

It was a qualified lawyer actually. Asked a friend to ask his father and he gave the lease a look through. Apparently I am entitled to it because it was up to them to clarify the period of lease and in the given circumstances it was not enough for them to presume that everybody was going to stay the full year. Going to explain this to them tomorrow and see how I get on.

Smithwicks Man

davo10 wrote: »

OP was the option to pay year in three instalments ie each samester, or full year in advance. If it was three instalments, that does not necessarily mean you could opt out after each samester, it may just mean you could spread out the payments.

It was never split up in any way really. You just paid for the first semester and the deposit and that was it. They seem very poorly organised tbh.

Kosseegan

Reloc8 wrote: »

So...?

So...

If it is a licence the tenancy laws do not apply and the o/p has no more rights than a holidaymaker in a holiday home. That is the position in a lot of purpose built student accommodation.

pinkdiamond

I often help out my dad with tenants, collecting rent etc. and you are the type of tenant that landlords try to avoid. My dad's apartment is in a student village very like the one you currently reside in. Dad is by no means well off, he is self employed and the rent from the apartment will be his income when he retires. After tax, he is hardly making any money on it right now.

Seems to me like ye both presumed that you would stay in the apartment for both semesters. Now because you change your mind, you are putting the landlord in the situation where he might not get rent for next semester for your room. I'm sure if he knew you were only going to stay for one semester he would have rather give the room to someone else who would stay the full academic year. Do yo realise that your rent money is his income? That it probably isn't even covering the mortgage on the house you were renting?

I have recently heard of a new website in the making called problemtenants.ie that aims to draw attention to tenants like yourself who makes life hard for landlords so that you will have severe difficulty finding accommodation again.

Procrastastudy

pinkdiamond wrote: »

I have recently heard of a new website in the making called problemtenants.ie that aimsto be on the reviving end of a defamation action.

Fixed it for you.

pinkdiamond

It's not defamation if it's true.

Procrastastudy

pinkdiamond wrote: »

It's not defamation if it's true.

Oh I'm sure it will all be provably true and wont get any unsubstantiated ranting. Your initial post re the OP sure does fill me with confidence.

pinkdiamond

It has to be proven false to be defamation: http://irishbarrister.com/defamation.html.

And from what I can see, it's only open to landlords so what will people rant about if they don't know what's being said.

There has been plenty other successful sites of the same nature, just not open to Irish landlords e.g http://www.badtenantslist.net/, http://www.landlordsbestfriend.co.uk/.

I don't care too much about this specific website because it doesn't appear to even work yet, but Irish landlords need a tool like it to warn them of troublesome tenants.

Smithwicks Man

pinkdiamond wrote: »

I often help out my dad with tenants, collecting rent etc. and you are the type of tenant that landlords try to avoid. My dad's apartment is in a student village very like the one you currently reside in. Dad is by no means well off, he is self employed and the rent from the apartment will be his income when he retires. After tax, he is hardly making any money on it right now.

Seems to me like ye both presumed that you would stay in the apartment for both semesters. Now because you change your mind, you are putting the landlord in the situation where he might not get rent for next semester for your room. I'm sure if he knew you were only going to stay for one semester he would have rather give the room to someone else who would stay the full academic year. Do yo realise that your rent money is his income? That it probably isn't even covering the mortgage on the house you were renting?

I have recently heard of a new website in the making called problemtenants.ie that aims to draw attention to tenants like yourself who makes life hard for landlords so that you will have severe difficulty finding accommodation again.

Is this supposed to be some sort of joke. I'm sure your father is an honest hard-working yadda yadda, but that has no relevance to my situation. The apartments are owned by a large company and the man at the top is in no way relying on my rent for him to live in.

Besides, that does not mean anything in any sort of legal context. ''Presumed'' does not mean anything here because based on the information they gave me, I was fully entitled to PRESUME that the lease was for the first semester and could be terminated after that time without consequence. Believe me, they have made life a lot harder for me than I have for them.

I have been charged 15e for a 2 metre ethernet cable that would cost roughly 1-2e, the fee was compulsory.
Charged 70e for a buzzer to open the main gate for cars, only 20e is refunded at the end of the year, the fee was compulsory.
Had several issues with the internet and television services.
Was lead to believe the tv licence was paid for by them which later proved to be untrue.

I put up with all this nonsense that was never mentioned to me before because I thought it would be worth it in the end. Now I want to move out because I simply can't afford to live here any more after being bled dry by these vultures and I am legally entitled to.

Discussed the matter with them today, they're ''reviewing'' the situation and will let me know by the end of the week. The fact that they admitted fault by failing to clarify the period of lease leads me to believe I will getting my money back soon.

Procrastastudy

pinkdiamond wrote: »

I don't care too much about this specific website because it doesn't appear to even work yet, but Irish landlords need a tool like it to warn them of troublesome tenants.

No they need to learn that they are running a business and should not cut corners. They end up with an asset worth a significant sum for very little investment at the end of the day. Further they need to check references properly for, not only their sake, but for the people living around them. Landlords frequently end up with just the tenant they deserve.

Starting a website that will be shut down shortly afterwards doesn't help anyone.

pinkdiamond

Procrastastudy wrote: »

No they need to learn that they are running a business and should not cut corners. They end up with an asset worth a significant sum for very little investment at the end of the day. Further they need to check references properly for, not only their sake, but for the people living around them. Landlords frequently end up with just the tenant they deserve.

Starting a website that will be shut down shortly afterwards doesn't help anyone.

Maybe they do. Neither of us know how they are taking references because we can't get into the website yet. I really don't know anything much about how this particular website operates. I hope it gets up and running soon. It would save a lot of hassle ringing around for references for the students looking for accommodation for next September.



And Smithwicks Man, a verbal agreement may not be legally binding but when terms are agreed with someone- a moral person will try to stick with them. Just because you think it's legal/ illegal doesn't automatically make it moral/immoral.

Do you not know that with the recession that we are in, most people (whether in big companies or not) that own property are struggling financially. You have already admitted that this particular company is struggling to fill rooms in the complex you are staying in so it sounds like to me that this company is no different.

Did you not ask anyone about any of those charges before moving in? Usually when you move into an estate or complex, it's a good idea to ask around about what charges you are expected to pay- or even ask the company themselves. Paying for a buzzer to open the garage or ethernet cable is pretty standard. Maybe they do require you to pay more than other companies, but you would have found that out if you had asked around.

Smithwicks Man

pinkdiamond wrote: »

And Smithwicks Man, a verbal agreement may not be legally binding but when terms are agreed with someone- a moral person will try to stick with them. Just because you think it's legal/ illegal doesn't automatically make it moral/immoral.

Do you not know that with the recession that we are in, most people (whether in big companies or not) that own property are struggling financially. You have already admitted that this particular company is struggling to fill rooms in the complex you are staying in so it sounds like to me that this company is no different.

Did you not ask anyone about any of those charges before moving in? Usually when you move into an estate or complex, it's a good idea to ask around about what charges you are expected to pay- or even ask the company themselves. Paying for a buzzer to open the garage or ethernet cable is pretty standard. Maybe they do require you to pay more than other companies, but you would have found that out if you had asked around.

Clearly the fact that your father is a landlord is clouding your thought. And so what if they are struggling?? Who do you think is struggling more, a large company who f***s over their tenants with bulls**t charges that they never say anything about before then tenants move in, or me, a lad trying to get through college on 9 euro an hour with no grant and parents who can only offer so much?

The above is nonsense talk. Whether I asked or not is besides the point. I should not be charged 15 euro for an ethernet cable that has a value of 2 euro when the internet is described as ''included in costs'' and I should not be charged anything for opening the gate when parking is described as ''free''.

And if you had read my posts you would know that there was no verbal agreement whatsoever. They presumed I would stay for the full year without ever mentioning it and I signed the lease with the intention of reviewing my options after the first semester. Maybe they wouldn't be in so much financial difficulty if they got their act together and quit cutting corners.

And morality? Please.. If Someone came in offering them my room for the second semester and offering 10 times the price I pay for it they wouldn't be too long tryinG to get me out. Landlords in Dublin are renowned for fleecing tenants to the last but the good days are over and it is now a buyers market. If they want to act in this manner of trying to rip me off then I will make sure others know about this and good riddens to them when they do go bust, it might teach them a lesson to not be so greedy.

Reloc8

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

The above is nonsense talk. Whether I asked or not is besides the point. I should not be charged 15 euro for an ethernet cable that has a value of 2 euro when the internet is described as ''included in costs'' and I should not be charged anything for opening the gate when parking is described as ''free''.

Well, stop entering into agreements wherein you commit to those charges so.

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

And morality? Please.. If Someone came in offering them my room for the second semester and offering 10 times the price I pay for it they wouldn't be too long tryinG to get me out.

Well, no. You'd be in here looking for advice trying to enforce the agreement that you've now decided you're not bound by.

Anyway, look, they'll probably chuck you back a few quid if not the whole amount just to draw a line through the file - and if not, so be it. Move on, learn, live life, be happy, prosper. You're not a great figurehead for the tenants' rights movement so maybe don't try and wear that hat.