Career Path - "Software" or "Web" Development?

joeKel73

I recently completed a masters in software design and development. We covered both "software" (C++, C, VB.NET) and "web" development (PHP, ASP.NET, MySQL) and I've been looking for jobs in either. (I know it's not exactly a clear division like that but bear with me)

In general, most of the web development work seems to require a couple of years experience and not of a very high salary. On the otherhand the Java/C++ jobs I've seen listed tend to be junior/intermediate/senior positions with increasing salaries and increasing experience requirements.

It seems to suggest that going down the Java/C++ software development route would be a better career path?

Or am I mis-reading the situation from the listings I've seen?

Entry level jobs into both are similar but just looking down the road a bit. Thanks for any experienced advice on this!

satchmo

Honestly, if you're looking long-term then you should concentrate less on what a better career path would be, and more on what you are interested in. If you work on what you're actually interested in, you'll do better, go further, and enjoy your work more than you would if you went purely on what's "right" for your career.

joeKel73

Yeah I know that but I'm honestly happy in either area and have applied for interesting jobs in both!

GreeBo

I think perhaps the distinction you are making is between being a software engineer and being a web site developer (someone who creates website that may or may not contain functionality)

IMO getting software engineering experience will mean that you can do either (and probably will nowadays) whereas taking a purely website development job will not afford you the same opportunities.

Stainless_Steel

GreeBo wrote: »

I think perhaps the distinction you are making is between being a software engineer and being a web site developer (someone who creates website that may or may not contain functionality)

IMO getting software engineering experience will mean that you can do either (and probably will nowadays) whereas taking a purely website development job will not afford you the same opportunities.

Off topic: is the term engineer correct here?

GreeBo

well my degree would tell you I'm a software scientist ;-) but my contract is engineer and always has been.

Sparks

Stainless_Steel wrote: »

Off topic: is the term engineer correct here?

"engineer" on its own isn't a protected term in Ireland (/muttermutterOughttobefeckssakemuttermutter) - the protected term is "Chartered Engineer" (in the UK or elsewhere, the terms are sometimes different: here's the list of what terms and where in the EU they're protected). So basicly, you can use the term if you want, nobody's going to stop you around here.

However, in quite a lot of places, "Engineer" is a protected term, so you'd want to keep that in mind. Some folks get a bit snarky about people without engineering degrees calling themselves engineers (something about spending decades in training and qualification and practice only to find that the guy fixing the coffee machine is using the same job title). Thing is, in Ireland at least, almost nobody in the software industry seems to have even heard of the Chartered Engineer qualification, never mind recognising it or seeking it out (when was the last time you saw a job ad that said you had to have a CEng in software engineering? And when was the last time you saw one that said you had to have a BA level degree?). Which really is a bit of a failing on the part of Engineers Ireland, to be brutal about it (the lack of recognition more than the lack of requiring it as mandatory, which wouldn't be appropriate (yet)).

All that aside, there's an entirely seperate debate about what exactly "software engineering" itself actually is. And I think that one could run to a few more pages of hair-splitting, which is what happened last time (and the time before that, and the time before that, and ... oh, just hit search ).

So nicely done, one question, two cans of worms opened

Stainless_Steel

Sparks wrote: »

"engineer" on its own isn't a protected term in Ireland (/muttermutterOughttobefeckssakemuttermutter) - the protected term is "Chartered Engineer" (in the UK or elsewhere, the terms are sometimes different: here's the list of what terms and where in the EU they're protected). So basicly, you can use the term if you want, nobody's going to stop you around here.

However, in quite a lot of places, "Engineer" is a protected term, so you'd want to keep that in mind. Some folks get a bit snarky about people without engineering degrees calling themselves engineers (something about spending decades in training and qualification and practice only to find that the guy fixing the coffee machine is using the same job title). Thing is, in Ireland at least, almost nobody in the software industry seems to have even heard of the Chartered Engineer qualification, never mind recognising it or seeking it out (when was the last time you saw a job ad that said you had to have a CEng in software engineering? And when was the last time you saw one that said you had to have a BA level degree?). Which really is a bit of a failing on the part of Engineers Ireland, to be brutal about it (the lack of recognition more than the lack of requiring it as mandatory, which wouldn't be appropriate (yet)).

All that aside, there's an entirely seperate debate about what exactly "software engineering" itself actually is. And I think that one could run to a few more pages of hair-splitting, which is what happened last time (and the time before that, and the time before that, and ... oh, just hit search ).

So nicely done, one question, two cans of worms opened

LOL sorry for taking the thread OT and opening the can!

I'm an engineer myself, a washing machine engineer. Just kidding - mechanical engineer.

I think you're right about it being the fault of Engineers Ireland.

BUT I'm not trying to be on my high horse - I don't mind software developers calling themselves engineers. I do development professionaly (hobby turned serious) and appreciate the thought process and intellect required to develop software.

robbiezero

J o e wrote: »

I recently completed a masters in software design and development. We covered both "software" (C++, C, VB.NET) and "web" development (PHP, ASP.NET, MySQL) and I've been looking for jobs in either. (I know it's not exactly a clear division like that but bear with me)

In general, most of the web development work seems to require a couple of years experience and not of a very high salary. On the otherhand the Java/C++ jobs I've seen listed tend to be junior/intermediate/senior positions with increasing salaries and increasing experience requirements.

It seems to suggest that going down the Java/C++ software development route would be a better career path?

Or am I mis-reading the situation from the listings I've seen?

Entry level jobs into both are similar but just looking down the road a bit. Thanks for any experienced advice on this!

With your college experience I would be inclined to join a smaller company where you would get to use both, i.e. develop on front and back end. Larger companies (not all) TEND to make you chose one.

After getting real experience on this you could then decide to specialize or not. If you could I would try and avoid ruling one of these areas out, as proficiency in both makes you extremely employable.

Sparks

robbiezero wrote: »

With your college experience I would be inclined to join a smaller company where you would get to use both, i.e. develop on front and back end. Larger companies (not all) TEND to make you chose one.

After getting real experience on this you could then decide to specialize or not. If you could I would try and avoid ruling one of these areas out, as proficiency in both makes you extremely employable.

There's a counter-argument to that though...

amen

While all this talk about about web vs software development is interesting what you really need to do is a find a business domain you are interested (Finance, Health, Telecommunications, Education etc) and go work in that industry as a developer. Develop good Domain knowledge skills along with the programming skills and the you will find a lot more doors will open for you.

ChRoMe

amen wrote: »

While all this talk about about web vs software development is interesting what you really need to do is a find a business domain you are interested (Finance, Health, Telecommunications, Education etc) and go work in that industry as a developer. Develop good Domain knowledge skills along with the programming skills and the you will find a lot more doors will open for you.

Unless its a really niche (and well paid!) domain, I don't think there is much value in that to be honest. I've worked in advertising,criminal justice and media, very easily to immediately switch. Code is code.

The Corinthian

amen wrote: »

While all this talk about about web vs software development is interesting what you really need to do is a find a business domain you are interested (Finance, Health, Telecommunications, Education etc) and go work in that industry as a developer. Develop good Domain knowledge skills along with the programming skills and the you will find a lot more doors will open for you.

Indeed. Ultimately all this talk of Web vs Software development is framing things completely incorrectly as it's all programming (I call it this only because even development is nowadays an overused and abused word).

Web development is simply one particular development specialization; sever/client development, the various technologies and languages used and so on.

This should not be confused with Web developers who use WYSIWYG's or just hack a bit around the edges of a CMS such as WordPress - but that's another can of worms.

However, there are numerous other development specializations out there, such as financial, embedded, mobile and so on - Web, is only one of them - albeit one of the best known and 'popular'. Each will demand you become more specialized in some technologies, as well as concepts surrounding the industry they support (e.g. you'll need to have an understanding of things such as derivatives if you go into financial development).

If you're a graduate, you can afford to change direction in your first few jobs as they'll tend to be fairly junior and allow for someone who is not yet specialized. It's only once you get to about five years experience that companies will begin to expect you to have chosen your niche.

In short, you've got time to decide.

The Corinthian

ChRoMe wrote: »

Unless its a really niche (and well paid!) domain, I don't think there is much value in that to be honest. I've worked in advertising,criminal justice and media, very easily to immediately switch. Code is code.

Depends on the market.

For example, back in 2007, if you were experienced in Java or C#, you could easily get a banking gig. Nowadays, banks can both afford and have to be to be picky (due to budget cuts), meaning that they'll additionally look for financial services knowledge, qualifications and/or experience.

srsly78

The Corinthian wrote: »

Depends on the market.

For example, back in 2007, if you were experienced in Java or C#, you could easily get a banking gig. Nowadays, banks can both afford and have to be to be picky (due to budget cuts), meaning that they'll additionally look for financial services knowledge, qualifications and/or experience.

Umm nope they still just hire anyone pretty much, such is the demand.

ChRoMe

The Corinthian wrote: »

Depends on the market.

For example, back in 2007, if you were experienced in Java or C#, you could easily get a banking gig. Nowadays, banks can both afford and have to be to be picky (due to budget cuts), meaning that they'll additionally look for financial services knowledge, qualifications and/or experience.

not in london, there may be a preference, but that is all. From everything I have seen they are so desperate for people there are no hard rules on it

L.Jenkins

Hey Joe. I work for a relatively large multinational here in Ireland. Java, C++ and C# are highly regarded development langauges. I support a web based product and the majority of it is developed in Java.

amen

Unless its a really niche (and well paid!) domain, I don't think there is much value in that to be honest. I've worked in advertising,criminal justice and media, very easily to immediately switch. Code is code.

yes code is code but if you want a telecomms job then haven written financial code for the last 15 years may not help.


Good domain knowledge allows progression into project management, it manager, business analyst etc

ChRoMe

amen wrote: »

Good domain knowledge allows progression into project management, it manager, business analyst etc

<mrT> I pity the fool, etc etc </mrT>

srsly78

The Corinthian wrote: »

Good domain knowledge allows progression into project management, it manager, business analyst etc

Why is this regarded as progression? I was a BA years ago, now have progressed onto more technical roles. Contract developers often get paid more than managers too.

joeKel73

Thanks for all the insightful replies! They're very helpful.

amen wrote: »

While all this talk about about web vs software development is interesting what you really need to do is a find a business domain you are interested (Finance, Health, Telecommunications, Education etc) and go work in that industry as a developer. Develop good Domain knowledge skills along with the programming skills and the you will find a lot more doors will open for you.

I actually have an honours degree in Civil Engineering (and some work experience) from before I started the MSc. I've an interview scheduled with an engineering software company, so hopefully that domain experience will stand to me well.

The Corinthian

srsly78 wrote: »

Why is this regarded as progression? I was a BA years ago, now have progressed onto more technical roles. Contract developers often get paid more than managers too.

Of course contract developers often get paid more than permanent managers - typically contract anything will get paid more than permanent.

By progression I mean that unless you can charge silly money because of some insanely unique skills and/or past achievement/pedigree (I remember working with one of the original Netscape developers years ago, who upon going out on his own contracting was able to charge Stg£5,000 p.d.), there is a bit of a limit on where you're going to go or how much you can earn.

Don't get me wrong; if you're happy with that (and I know people who are) then all well and good, but if not you realistically need bridge over to the business side of things.

Edit: Also when you're quoting someone, please try to attribute the quote to the correct person.

ChRoMe

srsly78 wrote: »

Why is this regarded as progression? I was a BA years ago, now have progressed onto more technical roles. Contract developers often get paid more than managers too.

Exactly, in many situations the PM is my minion.

amen

Exactly, in many situations the PM is my minion.

Most like because the PM wasn't a programmer.

ChRoMe

amen wrote: »

Most like because the PM wasn't a programmer.

The PM having coding skills or not has no influence in the situation.

quigg

Got accepted to do a Masters in Software Design and Development if I get a 2.1 in my degree but have to pay €1000 right away. If I dont get my 2:1 does anybody know if I will get my money back
Thanks

Sparks

Surely the college you're talking to would be the best place to ask that?

lemon_remon

Sparks wrote: »

Surely the college you're talking to would be the best place to ask that?

Or put it into Google. Google answers everything for me.