The right to choose

xareik

Since my last thread was prematurely and unfairly (imo) closed, I will make an attempt at discussing one of the points I made in that thread... Being careful not to cause offence or too much discord.

Ok, so here is my question:

Should people have the right (and the means if medically and scientifically possible) to choose their sexuality? To choose which sexual orientation they wish to be.

So, if for example, a man is born gay but wishes to be straight... should he have the right to choose to be straight?

And does society have a responsibility to look for the solutions (medical & scientific) to give those individuals that choice?

Transgender people have the right to choose what gender they wish to be...

If someone hates their nose, chin, hair, butt etc etc... They have the choice and the means to change these things...

Why should a gay/straight/Bisexual person not have the right to choose his/her sexual orientation?

Not every gay/lesbian/bisexual person is searching for acceptance for who they are. Some simply don't wish to be that way at all, and might choose not to be if there was a viable alternative.

And why are we as a species not actively searching for those solutions. Is this not hypocrytical of us not to at least attempt to give such individuals that option?

Thank you for reading, and I hope this stimulates an interesting discussion.

Kind regards,
Xareik

floggg

xareik wrote: »

Since my last thread was prematurely and unfairly (imo) closed, I will make an attempt at discussing one of the points I made in that thread... Being careful not to cause offence or too much discord.

Ok, so here is my question:

Should people have the right (and the means if medically and scientifically possible) to choose their sexuality? To choose which sexual orientation they wish to be.

So, if for example, a man is born gay but wishes to be straight... should he have the right to choose to be straight?

And does society have a responsibility to look for the solutions (medical & scientific) to give those individuals that choice?

Transgender people have the right to choose what gender they wish to be...

If someone hates their nose, chin, hair, butt etc etc... They have the choice and the means to change these things...

Why should a gay/straight/Bisexual person not have the right to choose his/her sexual orientation?

Not every gay/lesbian/bisexual person is searching for acceptance for who they are. Some simply don't wish to be that way at all, and might choose not to be if there was a viable alternative.

And why are we as a species not actively searching for those solutions. Is this not hypocrytical of us not to at least attempt to give such individuals that option?

Thank you for reading, and I hope this stimulates an interesting discussion.

Kind regards,
Xareik

Stir your **** else where. Your two posts are nothing but insults to LGBT people.

So if you actually hold those bull**** views, you're friends are doing you a massive favour telling you to keep them to yourself. And still bring friends with you.

xareik

floggg wrote: »

Stir your **** else where. Your two posts are nothing but insults to LGBT people.

So if you actually hold those bull**** views, you're friends are doing you a massive favour telling you to keep them to yourself. And still bring friends with you.

I have made every effort in this thread to be sensitive to people's feelings on the subject matter - I have not said anything offensive or insulting about anyone.

Whatever of the previous post, perhaps I could have worded that one a little better. It was perhaps a bit abrasive. (although I do maintain that I didn't try to offend anyone in that post either)

But there is certainly nothing offensive or insensitive in this thread. It's a perfectly ligitimate question to ask... In fact the tone of your comment is far more offensive than anything I have posted.

Frynge

The question you are asking is very very complex and i'm sure whole thesis could be written trying to answer it under many different disiplines such as phycological, phsiological, biological and even socialogical.

I would highly doubt you are going to get constructive discussion on the matter within boards.ie.

stephen_n

Word it whatever way you want it doesn't change the fact you are trying to say there is something wrong with being gay, something to be fixed. You base your views on nothing, other than ignorance and would gladly ignore any facts, that differentiate from your views. Like all homophobes, you are just ignorant and pretend to be open minded. Assuming you are white, how would you like someone to suggest you could be cured of your whiteness?


P.S. in relation to your previous post, deviance means deviating from the norm. The norm is not heterosexuality it is bisexuality, with estimates running at between 25-35% of the population being straight and 10% being gay, that leaves at least 55% Bi, so you should take your little deviant self off and get some same sex action, to cure yourself of your deviant straightness!

oisindoyle

xareik wrote: »

I have made every effort in this thread to be sensitive to people's feelings on the subject matter - I have not said anything offensive or insulting about anyone..

Then perhaps you should re read what you said .

xareik wrote: »

Whatever of the previous post, perhaps I could have worded that one a little better. It was perhaps a bit abrasive. (although I do maintain that I didn't try to offend anyone in that post either).

Your entire post was insulting .

xareik wrote: »

But there is certainly nothing offensive or insensitive in this thread. It's a perfectly ligitimate question to ask... In fact the tone of your comment is far more offensive than anything I have posted.

As above ,your entire post was insensitive,insulting and idiotic to sa the least .
You are either a troll or an uneducated idiotic.

xareik

Frynge wrote: »

The question you are asking is very very complex and i'm sure whole thesis could be written trying to answer it under many different disiplines such as phycological, phsiological, biological and even socialogical.

I would highly doubt you are going to get constructive discussion on the matter within boards.ie.

I'm sure you are probably right Frynge. I haven't seen or heard anything like this discussed in the academic/scientific community however... possibly because of the likely aggresive reaction that it would generate from certain sections of society.

But thank you for replying in a calm/reasoned manner and not throwing abuse in my direction. I appreciate that!

Frynge

I think the OP raises some points worthy of discussion but the tone of his post would lead me to believe he has more interest in poking with a stick than actually discussion.

xareik

stephen_n wrote: »

Word it whatever way you want it doesn't change the fact you are trying to say there is something wrong with being gay, something to be fixed. You base your views on nothing, other than ignorance and would gladly ignore any facts, that differentiate from your views. Like all homophobes, you are just ignorant and pretend to be open minded. Assuming you are white, how would you like someone to suggest you could be cured of your whiteness?


P.S. in relation to your previous post, deviance means deviating from the norm. The norm is not heterosexuality it is bisexuality, with estimates running at between 25-35% of the population being straight and 10% being gay, that leaves at least 55% Bi, so you should take your little deviant self off and get some same sex action, to cure yourself of your deviant straightness!

No I'm not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with being gay. Everybody should have the choice to decide that for themselves - but what ever your opinion, you should never discriminate against anyone...

What about cosmetic surgery? Some view it as wrong to alter what you were born with, while others don't... Why should sexuality be any different from that choice?

If I don't like the nose I was born with, I can change it. Why should I not have the same choice (if possible) with my sexuality?

oisindoyle

Compareing cosmetic surgery with ones sexuality just beggars belief.

fran17

xareik wrote: »

No I'm not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with being gay. Everybody should have the choice to decide that for themselves - but what ever your opinion, you should never discriminate against anyone...

What about cosmetic surgery? Some view it as wrong to alter what you were born with, while others don't... Why should sexuality be any different from that choice?

If I don't like the nose I was born with, I can change it. Why should I not have the same choice (if possible) with my sexuality?

excellent points xareik.there is a movement on going in the u.s in particular where a growing number of men who have homosexual feelings are seeking therapy to correct these feelings.a worrying percentage of society now promotes sexual exploration and promiscuity and this is very dangerous.

xareik

oisindoyle wrote: »

Compareing cosmetic surgery with ones sexuality just beggars belief.

Why?

For many people, physical defects (as they percieve them) are every bit as tough to deal with as sexuality issues.

You are in danger of trivialising cosmetic surgery. It is certainly not a trivial issue for those whom it concerns!

And I can speak with some authority on this, as I have struggled with both issues... and I can say the cosmetic concerns were more of an issue for me. (but that's just my experience)

Frynge

xareik wrote: »

I'm sure you are probably right Frynge. I haven't seen or heard anything like this discussed in the academic/scientific community however... possibly because of the likely aggresive reaction that it would generate from certain sections of society.

But thank you for replying in a calm/reasoned manner and not throwing abuse in my direction. I appreciate that!

If the matter was considered from a scial POV then no there is no need of having a choice as we are living in a tolorant society that include gay people within the community. But if someone wanted to be gay within this society should they have the choice of being gay or do we as a society label this as bisexual thought/slightly gay or even something as ridiculouse as gay on tuesdays.

But this is ireland where most people are capable of reasonable thought. What about the social posibilities of say an african country that apperantly jails two men for drinking baileys. If these two men were then givin another option say take a pill and dont be gay anymore. It may have benefit these two men but the question of it would be, is it a positive, negative or just a temperary benefit?

Also much bigger questions have to be asked then of us. We have allowed ourselves to alter ourselves on a medical/surgical level but what is the difference between this and new lips?

This question is really a non question with a little tought. The ramifications of such a posibility are hurting my head now.

hytrogen

fran17 wrote: »

excellent points xareik.there is a movement on going in the u.s in particular where a growing number of men who have homosexual feelings are seeking therapy to correct these feelings.a worrying percentage of society now promotes sexual exploration and promiscuity and this is very dangerous.

I appreciate this post. I wouldn't say it's dangerous as the reasoning probably stems from ones natural curiosity, some more passionate than others in this area of exploration of sexuality.

xareik

fran17 wrote: »

excellent points xareik.there is a movement on going in the u.s in particular where a growing number of men who have homosexual feelings are seeking therapy to correct these feelings.a worrying percentage of society now promotes sexual exploration and promiscuity and this is very dangerous.

Thanks fran. I have read about that movement a few years back... It's an interesting idea.

Again it's a choice. Everyone has the right to choose these things.

It's ironic that many of the same people who view themselves as being very liberal and open minded when it comes to the concerns of the LGBT community, are often the same people whom attack that particular movement as being wrong and backward thinking.

Some people are only open minded when it suits them or their agenda/world view.

I think the biggest point of everything I'm saying, is that the right to choose should not be such an exclusive concept.

If people view LGBT as being normal - that's perfectly ok. But don't force your world view on everyone else... Even if the vast majority of the world views it as normal, an individual still has the right to define their own reality.

hytrogen

stephen_n wrote: »

Word it whatever way you want it doesn't change the fact you are trying to say there is something wrong with being gay, something to be fixed. You base your views on nothing, other than ignorance and would gladly ignore any facts, that differentiate from your views. Like all homophobes, you are just ignorant and pretend to be open minded. Assuming you are white, how would you like someone to suggest you could be cured of your whiteness?


P.S. in relation to your previous post, deviance means deviating from the norm. The norm is not heterosexuality it is bisexuality, with estimates running at between 25-35% of the population being straight and 10% being gay, that leaves at least 55% Bi, so you should take your little deviant self off and get some same sex action, to cure yourself of your deviant straightness!

Link to Citation of source stats please.
Also which state were they compiled from? California or Florida??
I also laugh at your opinion. Heterosexual is the norm, you don't see straight people out parading in flowery outfits demanding recognition & respect of a hetro orientation, culture or superiority? They go out in support of the minority out of respect for their gay friends & to have a party.

hytrogen

xareik wrote: »

...
<b>Again it's a choice. Everyone has the right to choose these things. <\B>

It's ironic that many of the same people who view themselves as being very liberal and open minded when it comes to the concerns of the LGBT community, are often the same people whom attack that particular movement as being wrong and backward thinking.

Some people are only open minded when it suits them or their agenda/world view.

<B>I think the biggest point of everything I'm saying, is that the right to choose should not be such an exclusive concept.<\B>

If people view LGBT as being normal - that's perfectly ok. <b>But don't force your world view on everyone else... Even if the vast majority of the world views it as normal, an individual still has the right to define their own reality.<\b>

I highlighted in bold points you make that are very valid and go dismissed quite frequently with blind prejudice in the name of recognition as seen probably with previous responders to the OP.
Much like any group or demographic in our society today you do get hard lined & blinded (due to underline prejudice & fear) views which cloud the views of others and misrepresent the purpose for what they actually stand for for fear of being found incorrect.
Choice IS ones right

paulmorro

fran17 wrote: »

excellent points xareik.there is a movement on going in the u.s in particular where a growing number of men who have homosexual feelings are seeking therapy to correct these feelings.a worrying percentage of society now promotes sexual exploration and promiscuity and this is very dangerous.

A movement that is heavily (HEAVILY) discredited by most leading psychologists... the ones that don't discredit it seem to be heavily homophobic.

OP, if you are for real, you really don't have a clue. Your link with cosmetic surgery speaks for itself. Saying transgendered people choose they gender is completely ignorant. Read one page of a thread here and say again that they choose their gender!

Above all, just your general attitude is that gay/bi people are inferior (I know you'll deny this - I don't buy it!) which is just thrown out there without any rationale.

xareik

paulmorro wrote: »

A movement that is heavily (HEAVILY) discredited by most leading psychologists... the ones that don't discredit it seem to be heavily homophobic.

OP, if you are for real, you really don't have a clue. Your link with cosmetic surgery speaks for itself. Saying transgendered people choose they gender is completely ignorant. Read one page of a thread here and say again that they choose their gender!

Above all, just your general attitude is that gay/bi people are inferior (I know you'll deny this - I don't by it!) which is just thrown out there without any rationale.

Or are you labelling them as homophobic because their views clash with your reality?

I believe I have explained very clearly why cosmetic surgery is a ligitimate comparison. People struggle with all sorts of things in their lives, some (like cosmetic issues) they can do something about. Others there is less options available.

All I'm saying is that it might be a step in the right direction if people had more options to choose from.

Having the option to alter one's sexuality doesn't need to be an offensive idea to those who are happy with their's... unless you would seek to deny happiness to such an individual based on YOUR opinion.

I understand that if someone is gay, for example, and they have made their peace with it and accepted it... then they might find it difficult to accept why others can't do the same. But the reality is, there are many people out there who simply can't or don't want to accept it.....

Are you advocating those people should be forced to live a life of misery even if there was the possibility that science could help them?

Many people kill themselves every day around the world because they can't (or don't want to) accept certain things about themselves.

And to suggest that I am calling gay/bi people inferior, is frankly immature and clearly an attempt at a wind-up (which I will not rise to)

This, I hope, is a serious discussion. Maybe you should come back when you are prepared to engage it in that manner.

paulmorro

xareik wrote: »

This, I hope, is a serious discussion. Maybe you should come back when you are prepared to engage it in that manner.

A serious discussion where you think transgender people choose their gender and you think conversion therapy in the US is a good idea.

Edit:

xareik wrote: »

Or are you labelling them as homophobic because their views clash with your reality?

No I'm labelling them as homophobic because that's what a lot are. The WHO are against it because of the psychological dangers of the "therapy"

xareik

paulmorro wrote: »

A serious discussion where you think transgender people choose their gender and you think conversion therapy in the US is a good idea.

Transgender people have the choice as to wether they alter their bodies or not... to better align their body with their mind. Yes that is choice.

Did I say conversion therapy was a good idea...? I'm pretty sure I said it was an "interesting idea"...

But so what if I did think it was a good idea? It's a good idea for those who feel they need it and it's a good idea if it helps somebody who is lost and confused about who they are...

If people get something positive from it and they are not hurting anyone else, why not? Who are we to tell someone to accept that which they can't accept?

If your goal was to paint me as the intolerant one, I think you are doing a poor job so far. In fact, you are making yourself look rather intolerant tbh.

paulmorro

xareik wrote: »

Transgender people have the choice as to wether they alter their bodies or not... to better align their body with their mind. Yes that is choice.

Did I say conversion therapy was a good idea...? I'm pretty sure I said it was an "interesting idea"...

But so what if I did think it was a good idea? It's a good idea for those who feel they need it and it's a good idea if it helps somebody who is lost and confused about who they are...

If people get something positive from it and they are not hurting anyone else, why not? Who are we to tell someone to accept that which they can't accept?

If your goal was to paint me as the intolerant one, I think you are doing a poor job so far. In fact, you are making yourself look rather intolerant tbh.

Read my edit above - people don't get help from it

hytrogen

paulmorro wrote: »

No I'm labelling them as homophobic because that's what a lot are. The WHO are against it because of the psycological dangers of the "therapy"

which is actually a conservative, professional decision for the preservation of life & not homophobic. Stop thinking everyone hates gays for being gays & the whole world is against them

paulmorro

hytrogen wrote: »

which is actually a conservative, professional decision for the preservation of life & not homophobic.

What?

xareik

paulmorro wrote: »

Read my edit above - people don't get help from it

Well, yes they do actually.. in a way.

There is help to accept something and there is help to change it.

For alot of issues people have the choice between either. But not really when it comes to their sexual orientation. (unless you are Bi and choose to settle on one side of the fence - but that's not really the same as denying one's true sexuality...)

Change or accept. That is the two main choices most people have when faced with something in life. And people often say, if you are not happy with something in your life - you either find a way to accept it or you find a way to change it...

Conversion therapy is just one idea that has been thought up for those in this world who have made the choice to change this part of themselves that they don't like.

If it was medically/scientifically possible to alter one's sexuality, why should people not be given that option?

Just because it might offend certain people in the LGBT community or wider society..?

Is that a good enough justification to deny someone the chance to be happy? (I think that would be hypocrytical of society and the LGBT community in particular!)

Annasopra

Closing this. The OP is clearly trolling and making deliberately offensive statements