Loose Change in the provinces...

leftleg

Loose Change in the Provinces and Ireland......

The Dark Horse: Denis Buckley



DOB: 09/08/1990
Height: 1.77m
Weight: 113kg


He’s young and he’s eager. The Baby of the bunch, Denis Buckley has made the number 1 jersey his own at Connacht. The Roscommon born, Blackrock College schooled Buckley made his provincial debut in 2011 against Trevisio and has since graduated from the Connacht academy with flying colours.
He can now count games against Toulouse and Harlequins on his CV as well so the young tyro has officially been around. This year he has made an appearance in all but one game for the western province this season, including both Heineken Cup fixtures. In the Cup fixtures he started as well against Zebre and Quins. He seems to be easily winning the battle with Brett Wilkinson for the loose-head spot out west, no thanks to a huge engine in both set piece and loose play. He’s stout, strong and a nicely compact 113kg, perfect for a loose-head prop. Denis has represented Ireland at schools and u18 level so he has some pedigree behind him too.


The New Kid on The Block: Dave Kilcoyne



DOB: 14/12/1988
Height: 1.83m
Weight: 110kg

Dave Kilcoyne started his rugby career with Ardscoil Ris and UL Bohs before getting a contract with Munster. Kilcoyne came to prominence with a good run in the B & I Cup in 09/10 season which saw him get a contract with Munster. He made his debut against Connacht in 2011 as a sub and strated his first game for Munster against the Scarlet’s 4 months later. The good times kept rolling for the Munster prop in 2012 with a destructive run in the B & I Cup for Munster, highlighted with a come from behind victory over Leinster in the semis in which he scored an injury time try and a right old pasting of Cross Keys in the final of that cup.

Again Kilcoyne’s star shone strong at the tail end of this year as he has now pretty much usurped Marcus Horan at Munster and made his Heineken Cup debut against Racing last month. It’s this game that got everyone watching as he gave Racing prop Luc Ducalcon a good going over in the early stages of the game before the home team got a hold of the match. Declan has noticed as well. The young prop has two caps to show for his strong provincial gains against strong opposition in the shape of South Africa and Argentina. This man’s star shows no sign of abating. The sky seems to be the limit, with a difficult night against Mike Ross in the Aviva derby against Leinster, the only blot on this babies bib.

The Yard Stick: Cian Healy



DOB: 07/10/1987
Height: 1.85m
Weight 112kg

Well, there’s not much more to be said about Healy that hasn’t been said already. This guy has a youth’s grand slam with Ireland in 2007 and was just a tad on the young side to get a look in for the 2009 grand slam winning senior side. He did win a Churchill cup winners medal that year with Ireland thrashing England in the final. He made his debut for Ireland 7 months later in the 2009 November series against Australia. He’s a mainstay for both Leinster and Ireland now and received the man of the match award for his demolition job of the Australian scrum in the now famous 2011 RWC group game victory that threw the entire tournament wide open. He has three Heineken Cup Winners medals in 4 years and scored all important tries against Clermont and Ulster on the way to last year’s record breaking Cup victory. In short the guy is an absolute tank and a can quite rightly count himself in as a certain starter for the Lion Tour. Bravo indeed.

Been there, done that: Tom Court




DOB: 06/11/1980
Height: 1.91m
Weight: 122kg


Tom Court is an Aussie shot putter from Brisbane who started his rugby career with the Queensland reds and Manuwatu way back in 2004. He only took up rugby as a past time to keep fit while doing Olympic trials as a shot putter for Australia in 2003. He joined Ulster as a dual sided prop in 2005/2006. Court actually stared for Ireland in the 2006 Churchill Cup 16 months after actively taking up rugby union, before he had even played his first game for Ulster. He made his full Ireland senior debut in 2008 against the Barbarians in Gloucester and managed to get a grand slam winners medal as a sub tight head for John Hayes in the 2009 Six Nations. He also managed to get a place in 2011 RWC squad and came on as a sub for Mike Ross in the famous 15-6 victory over Australia. He also played a now infamous part in Irelands 2012 Six Nations loss to England at Twickenham again unluckily at his least favoured position of tight head, when Mike Ross got injured. Provincially Court has been a regular starter at the coal face and can count a Heineken Cup mauling of Leicester Tigers at Ravenhill in 2012, where Ulster made mincemeat of the tigers scrum in a 41-7 mauling. He has a Heineken Cup runners-up medal from that same year where Ulster came out second best to an all-conquering Leinster side also in his trophy cabinet. Not a bad CV, the guy has buckets of experience and at 32, still has a few years of top level rugby left in him.


Overall...

On the face of it you’d have to think, propping crises? What crises, there are 4 great loose-heads all pushing scrums around regularly for all 4 provinces in Ireland. Great news on the face of it. Look a bit deeper and the plot certainly does thicken. Healy is obviously the shoe in for the starting Irish 1 jersey. He is probably one of, if not the best loose-head in world rugby at the moment. Behind Healy, experience and street smartness wise you’d have to look straight to Court. Unfortunately for Tom, England at Twickenham and a rare injury to Mike Ross seems to have dealt his future international chances a cruel and fatal blow.
Because of a mixture of flogging John Hayes at Tight head without successive Irish coaches ever properly examining other tight head options, and because of his supposed ability to dual prop in 22 man international squads, Court found himself playing a lot of his international career at his least favoured tight head position. This culminated in pulverising at the hands of a hugely dominant England scum in the 2012 Six Nations. Happier on the loose head side of the scrum, Court at tight head was taken to the cleaners by his opposite loose-head Alex Corbisiero.

Since that game Court hasn’t been seen near an Irish match day squad. Even with the advent of 23 man- squads, The Queenslander with Irish grand parentage seems to be a thing of the past. At 32 years, maybe he’s getting on a bit. Or is he? This year alongside kiwi tight head John Afoa, Court has been destroying scrums in both the Rabbo and the Heineken Cup with clinical efficiency. Past it me hoop.
In Courts international absence, Munster prop Dave Kilcoyne has stolen a sneaky but effective march on him. So far Kilcoyne has already 8 appearances for Munster this year including 2 in the Heineken cup games against Racing and Edinburgh. In 2011 he made 4 appearances as well for his province. Strong and pretty dependable in the scum and always eager to carry in the loose, Kilcoyne has now taken over the starting reins at Munster in-front of Wian Du Preez and the now fading Marcus Horan. This sort of form has seen him take the now available bencing loose head spot for Ireland including a start against Fiji in the non-cap game at Thomond Park. He also came on as Healy’s replacement against South Africa and Argentina. What a year for Kilcoyne. But is he better than Tom Court right now? In scrummaging terms it’s hard to know. At Munster when BJ Botha plays, Kilcoyne can enjoy a locked scrum to play with. Swap Botha for Archer and worm does indeed turn. Mike Ross gave him Kilcoyne a bit of seeing to in the Leinster Munster derby snoozer in the Aviva earlier in the year. Has the youngster got the scrummaging skill and technique to make it at the highest level?
More pertinent, is he better at loose head than Tom Court? In Declan’s eyes, Kilcoyne would seem the more attractive choice. Young and with still so much more potential to possibly unlock, Kidney seems to have deemed Tom Courts position at international level as a non-runner. The coach is building for the next world cup after all. The only problem with this is, other selections in other positions on the team scream the opposite to whats happening on the left side of the scrum. At Ravenhill earlier in the year Ulster beat Munster in a wonderful game of running rugby, a game in which the Ulster front row were fairly dominant and had the Munster tight five in all sorts of problems. Again the plot certainly has thickened.
Denis Buckley hasn’t got anything on say Tom Court or Cian Healy experience or CV wise. But looking at the stats, he is not far off Kilcoyne in terms of age and physical stats. He has 20 odd appearances for Connacht so far in his career and has played Heineken Cup games against the likes of Toulouse, Gloucester and Zebre. He actually has more Heineken Cup experience than Kilcoyne. It’s still very difficult to guage how good the guy is particularly playing for the less fancied Western region. Still he should not be ignored and one hope’s will see Ireland Wolfhound game time in the summer tour of North America. And judging by Kidneys treatment of Court you’d have to say he should get in with a shout in-front of club mate Brett Wilkinson as he is younger and has more “potential” than his South African born team mate.

It would seem that the future is indeed bright for Ireland in the 1 jersey. There are plenty of options all over the country. Again it all comes down to the coach making the right calls and the right time in terms of each player’s future development. Is it right to jettison Tom Court, when he still seems to have so much to offer, instead of an up and coming and relatively unknown but talented youngster? Tough call, but these are the calls that eventually make or break both coaches and players involved, maybe even games (England 2012). Subtly pooing all over a great loose heads career by dropping him for one bad performance at tight head against a very strong and some say illegally scrummaging England front 3 shouldn’t be something that is just swept under the carpet. At the same time, we are building for the next world cup and if Kilcoyne doesn’t get international game time now he could be undercooked for the zenith of this 4 year cycle. Catch 22, maybe. Someone has to lose somewhere. The question is, who?

ray jay

The fact that we have a tour to North America coming up is great news for the younger guys. Admittedly there are players who've been capped over there and have barely got a look in since, but at least they'll gain exposure to international rugby.

Higher

Didn't know Buckley was developed by Leinster. The sheer quality and quantity of players that Blackrock churns out is incredible to be honest.

Higher

By the way I think you should include probably the most exciting and upcoming talent at loose head, Jack McGrath.

Destructive scrummager. Of all the young loose heads plying their trade in this country hes probably the only one who could genuinely win penalties consistently.

Jawgap

I like Buckley - mobile and fast (and super-fast for a prop:)), physical and athletic. Having seen him play a few times I wondered if he wouldn't - with some mentoring - make a great blindside flanker?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Higher wrote: »

By the way I think you should include probably the most exciting and upcoming talent at loose head, Jack McGrath.

Destructive scrummager. Of all the young loose heads plying their trade in this country hes probably the only one who could genuinely win penalties consistently.

McGrath McAlister and others are all great prospects but I think he was just looking at each provinces first choice

molloyjh

leftleg wrote: »

At the same time, we are building for the next world cup and if Kilcoyne doesn’t get international game time now he could be undercooked for the zenith of this 4 year cycle. Catch 22, maybe. Someone has to lose somewhere. The question is, who?

Nice little write up. You're getting fond of these! :P

I'm not sure we can say that Ireland are building for the next RWC. Certainly the majority of the evidence would suggest we aren't. I'm at a loss to explain the inclusion of players like ROG while also explaining the dropping of Court. The two things seem to me to be very much the opposite of each other logically.

GerM

Higher wrote: »

Didn't know Buckley was developed by Leinster. The sheer quality and quantity of players that Blackrock churns out is incredible to be honest.

Think Buckley only went to Blackrock in 5th and 6th year similar to JHW. He played underage for Connacht and came through their system.

GerM

Higher wrote: »

By the way I think you should include probably the most exciting and upcoming talent at loose head, Jack McGrath.

Destructive scrummager. Of all the young loose heads plying their trade in this country hes probably the only one who could genuinely win penalties consistently.

McGrath is a big talent, undoubtedly. But I think he's being talked up a little too much. He's a good, solid option but I wouldn't consider him destructive at senior level at all. He wins the odd penalty, he concedes the odd penalty. He's more than capable of holding his own at Pro12 level currently but I'd be very uncomfortable seeing him thrown into a HEC match at the moment without further development. He's only ever started 6 professional games. I think 12-15 starts next season should be his aim and we'll see where he is then.

Right now, I'd say McAllister is the most destructive scrummager in terms of young looseheads coming through. He absolutely took apart a couple of scrums last season and won a couple of penalty tries.

CIARAN_BOYLE

GerM wrote: »

McGrath is a big talent, undoubtedly. But I think he's being talked up a little too much. He's a good, solid option but I wouldn't consider him destructive at senior level at all. He wins the odd penalty, he concedes the odd penalty. He's more than capable of holding his own at Pro12 level currently but I'd be very uncomfortable seeing him thrown into a HEC match at the moment without further development. He's only ever started 6 professional games. I think 12-15 starts next season should be his aim and we'll see where he is then.

Right now, I'd say McAllister is the most destructive scrummager in terms of young looseheads coming through. He absolutely took apart a couple of scrums last season and won a couple of penalty tries.

As many as Kilcoyne when he became an international so he must ready to pull on a green jersey

Hagz

GerM wrote: »

Think Buckley only went to Blackrock in 5th and 6th year similar to JHW. He played underage for Connacht and came through their system.

No, he was in Blackrock since 2nd year. Played at u-19 level with Leinster.

GerM

Hagz wrote: »

No, he was in Blackrock since 2nd year. Played at u-19 level with Leinster.

Ta. Played U18 with Connacht though, no? Odd.

Hagz

I just found out something interesting. Rhys Ruddock was in the same year group as Macken, Conway and Jordi Murphy back when they were in 3rd class in Willow Park.

Hagz

GerM wrote: »

Ta. Played U18 with Connacht though, no? Odd.

I don't know. That would be weird though. U18 is split between schools and club teams, given that he was in 'Rock you would think he was playing for the schools team in which case I would have thought he would have to play for Leinster.

ed7890

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

As many as Kilcoyne when he became an international so he must ready to pull on a green jersey

In fairness Kilcoyne might be low on starts, but his starts this season have come in Munsters biggest games; Leinster, Ulster, HEC games.

molloyjh

ed7890 wrote: »

In fairness Kilcoyne might be low on starts, but his starts this season have come in Munsters biggest games; Leinster, Ulster, HEC games.

Due to WDP being injured though no?

totallegend

Excellent work. And any post which includes the below photo is OK in my book.

leftleg wrote: »

Healy really is a freak. Kilcoyne is only a year younger but is about five years behind him in experience and development.

I'd like to echo leftleg's comments about Tom Court; he has been very shabbily by the Irish management recently. Glad to see Kilcoyne getting exposure to the senior set-up but the decision to axe Court completely is very hard to fathom.

yougottagoboy

Hagz wrote: »

I don't know. That would be weird though. U18 is split between schools and club teams, given that he was in 'Rock you would think he was playing for the schools team in which case I would have thought he would have to play for Leinster.

Yeah Buckley played Connacht schools then Leinster 19s. Nah he wouldn't have to play for Leinster,plenty of CCR players represent Connacht. One of the Gonzaga props this year even represented Connacht 19s

ed7890

molloyjh wrote: »

Due to WDP being injured though no?

Not necessarily, Wian was fit for the Leinster game and on the bench. I'm fairly sure Wian was fit for the Ulster game but was given a rest, with Horan on the bench. So they were already building Kilcoyne up by giving him starts in big games.

Du Preez got injured before the HEC started, so that guaranteed Kilcoyne got to start both games, otherwise my guess is they would have started one each. I would say Kilcoyne is ahead at the moment, he's played really well, while Wian hasn't looked that strong this season, or at least not stronger than Kilcoyne. We're in a nice spot if they're both fit, we can do some rotation.

ray jay

Leftleg, if you plan to write this sort of thing regularly, you should start a blog.

Cosmo Kramer

Any specific reason why we are developing so many quality loose heads and so few tight heads? TH is a more difficult position but arguably a more important one also. Is it just a coincidence that our best up and coming props are all loose heads?

P_1

Cracking write up/analysis again.

Out of interest are you thinking of doing this by position?

leftleg

pithater1 wrote: »

Cracking write up/analysis again.

Out of interest are you thinking of doing this by position?

Yep

yougottagoboy

leftleg wrote: »

Yep

What do you think of ed byrne?

ScissorPaperRock

ray jay wrote: »

Leftleg, if you plan to write this sort of thing regularly, you should start a blog.

It's enjoyable reading these sort of posts here in the forum too though.

Good work!

leftleg

yougottagoboy wrote: »

What do you think of ed byrne?

The comedian or the dual sided prop from Carlow?

He's certainly an exciting prospect and you don't get many dual sided props these days. Could be the next big thing, like every bright young thing, he'll get to the stage where he has a short window of opportunity I'm which to make it. If he doesn't make the right choice then, say hello to the English championship or worse Zebre.

tolosenc

In McGrath, we have essentially cloned Cian Healy. The guy is insane. Given that he recently ate an international squad member of the undoubted quality of Stephen Archer for breakfast, he should surely be in the Irish squad.

McGrath is, IMO, the only LH with even a hope of dislodging the Churchmeister.

Banbridgeman2

tolosenc wrote: »

In McGrath, we have essentially cloned Cian Healy. The guy is insane. Given that he recently ate an international squad member of the undoubted quality of Stephen Archer for breakfast, he should surely be in the Irish squad.

McGrath is, IMO, the only LH with even a hope of dislodging the Churchmeister.

Alongside McAllister. My friend who coaches at Neath was watching the recent Leinstef A game and said he was in awe at McGrath's technique at the scrum. Two excellent prospects

tolosenc

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

Alongside McAllister. My friend who coaches at Neath was watching the recent Leinstef A game and said he was in awe at McGrath's technique at the scrum. Two excellent prospects

To be fair, I don't know that much about McAllister. Is he the blond guy who played in the Heineken Cup final?

jacothelad

tolosenc wrote: »

To be fair, I don't know that much about McAllister. Is he the blond guy who played in the Heineken Cup final?

Yes.

Beery Eyed

McAllister is highly regarded but he is out for the whole of this season. Torn cruciate ligament back in August. He's only 23 so obviously he still has time on his side, but that's a long time to miss at this stage of his development & it's a big injury to come back from. Hopefully he will come back strong next year.

Callum Black is seemingly the next in line at Ulster. He lines out this weekend against Scarlets in place of Court

Fireball07

LH is one position we are fine in, if we were equally okay at TH, we'd be laughing...and hopefully we will be in a couple of years.


Healy is obviously by far and away the number 1, none of the others are anything close to his standard.

Court is probably the next most able, experienced and a safe scrummager but I actually agreed with Kilcoyne been given the nod for Ireland. Kilcoyne hasn't played as much yet but he looks to have got ahead of Du Preez for Munster, impressed in the scrum against the likes of Racing and Ulster and is also superb in the loose. I think as an impact player, he'd be better than Court...although if I was picking one from the start, I'd have Court. But Kilcoyne has the potential to be better than Court.

As for Buckley, I don't think there's very much between Kilcoyne and Buckley at all, they've both played HC rugby, they're both young and they've both impressed a lot. Buckley is also excellent at the breakdown, I've seen him win a few turnovers and he's not lacking dynamism either. So I think it's a toss-up between him and Kilcoyne, they both have a very exciting future ahead of them as they could be starting for their province for years.



Outside of the starters, people have rightly pointed out, we do have loads of options. McGrath is known to be a destructive scrummager and has absolutely enormous potential. Interesting to see if he can dislodge Healy, which is what he'll have to do to start regularly for Leinster and Ireland. A momentous task but if anyone can, it's McGrath.

Don't forget Wilkinson either, he was a regular in Ireland squads up to recently. Just because Buckley has leapfrogged him doesn't mean he's a bad player. If Kilcoyne hadn't come through, Wilkinson would have been a great option for Munster...having slipped behind at Connacht, I still think he's well capable of playing at HC level. McAllister is the other one...injured atm, but Court isn't going to last forever, I think McAllister will be starting for Ulster in a couple of years if he fully recovers from his injury.

Tox56

Fireball07 wrote: »

Don't forget Wilkinson either, he was a regular in Ireland squads up to recently. Just because Buckley has leapfrogged him doesn't mean he's a bad player. If Kilcoyne hadn't come through, Wilkinson would have been a great option for Munster...having slipped behind at Connacht, I still think he's well capable of playing at HC level. McAllister is the other one...injured atm, but Court isn't going to last forever, I think McAllister will be starting for Ulster in a couple of years if he fully recovers from his injury.

Apparently Furlong was noticeably on top in the scrums when they played eachother in the recent Leinster-Connacht A game.

People were suggesting Wilkinson wasn't totally committed given it was just an A game, but someone of his experience shouldn't have been put on the back foot by a 20 year old, irrespective of how promising that 20 year old is.

liam12989

i believe buckely can cover TH to iirc....anyone confirm deny this?

yougottagoboy

liam12989 wrote: »

i believe buckely can cover TH to iirc....anyone confirm deny this?

Played loose in school and has always been there as far as I know so itd be hard to imagine him being able to cover th