Would a Grand Slam be enough?

goreyguy

Thinking extremely positively(and unlikely), would a GS in the next 6N be enough to convince that Kidney should be offered an extension?

Hagz

It's the manner in which it happens. Doesn't have to be a grand-slam in my opinion. Just some deliverance of continuity, and getting this team to play to their potential. Personally he would have to get Ireland playing fantastically for me to be okay with him staying. I just feel like too much damage has been done.

molloyjh

While I answered Yes I'd be with Hagz on this. If we win a Grand Slam because everyone else is crap and we're just a little less crap then it would mean very little. If we win a Triple Crown and miss out on a GS by losing a close run game against a top class French side - and we play the sort of rugby we saw against Argentina consistently - then we might have to rethink our opinions on Kidney.

Either way it's far too early to be thinking about anything other than the next game. Let's see how we get on there. If we fall back into the Kidney abyss then his cards have to be marked. If we continue with a bit of form then we'll need to start looking for consistency for the rest of the tournament over and above looking for his head.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I answered yes but like the other two lads above its more about the type of Rugby.

If we go out and play like we did at the weekend and get four wins and fall short against a top team I'll be happy to keep Kidney.

That said Kidney needs to build depth in the front row to a certain extent. I want to see the reserve TH and LH each get at least 100 minutes of rugby during the six nations.

awec

No IMO. I think he's had his chance.

.ak

What if we won a GS because all of the other teams were shocking? It's completely down to context.

Teferi

From my view:

Absolutely not, Kidney has had his chance. He has consistently under delivered in a period of near absolute dominance from Irish club rugby. He has also had depth of players like no coach for Ireland has had before and he has severely underutilised them.

From the point of view of the IRFU and the casual rugby viewer:

A GS would absolutely guarantee an extension.

tbm

I've said Yes, but on reflection I think I'd like someone new in regardless. Save for Matt Williams in the Times, there has been a fair bit of back slapping going on regarding the performance against the Pumas. Great and all as we were, we now have to stew and wait for the selection for the Wales game to see if Declan is actually going to build on what happened last Saturday. As with the England last year, it's going to be months before we get a chance to see Ireland build on the forst positive performance in aeons.

I don't buy Wales form either. Anybody who has watched Ireland v Wales, or Ospreys v Leinster/Munster games over the last few years know that the Welsh LOVE playing us of late. I've no doubt that that game will be really tight.

So, in short, if we win a GS with loads of new players being involved, and the old guard (who haven't been perfroming) nowhere near the squad, I'd maybe take DK getting another contract. otherwise lets get someone else in there!

justsomebloke

Is it not a pretty pointless question though. If he wins the grand slam he WILL be kept on, no matter how badly we played to get it

eire_lad

i think with the age profile of the players coming through bank has to be bust to get conor o shea. He's worked really well with the young players coming through at Harqequins and would probably be able to put a gamneplan in place to suit the current backs available

CoDy1

Pretty sure any coach who wins a GS will get an extension regardless of what has gone before.

Thats if he wants it of course.

Zuffer

We know what Kidney brings as a coach, and I believe we could do better with a new man in charge. The Argentina game doesn't change that. Kidney has always been capable of getting us once off results, but most of the time we have only seen regression since 2009.

If Kidney suddenly had a road to Damascus type conversion, and started making better selection decisions and getting the team playing more effective rugby, then sure, give him an extension. However, I don't think he's that type of person to change his philosophy. It would require him to display tactical, technical qualities that no one has every claimed he has in abundance.

One could imagine that, with England and Wales not at their strongest, and with Scotland and Italy not having the quality of player we do, we could win all of those games. Combine that with a good once off performance against France at home, with a dollop of luck we could win the Grand Slam in 2013, without playing much better than we are right now. Some would argue that was the story of 2009.

In that type of scenario, no, a Grand Slam wouldn't be enough.

bilston

I'm just repeating what a lot of others have already said but if we win a GS playing the sort of rugby we played on Saturday then absolutely I'd be happy to give him an extension. Equally if we win a TC or just a plain old Championship playing that sort of rugby I'd be happy for him to stay.

In saying that someone else hinted at it earlier but would he want an extension? His era of players (ie those he brought through at age group level) are either gone or on their way out so he might feel it's a pretty good time to step aside.

walshb

Yeah, because we are so used to winning grand slams.;)

molloyjh

I'd possibly add that even with a positive 6 Nations it would only be prudent to offer him a shorter extension, like say 1 year. Over the course of that year he'd need to prove himself over a period of time (summer tour, AIs & 2014 6Ns). If DK is able to impress for 14 months on the trot then we can consider him for the RWC, not before.

Of course as justsomebloke said this is all irrelevant. The IRFU are going to do what the IRFU are going to do. I'm still remaining stubbornly cynical though, and refuse to believe this isn't another false dawn. If I'm right then Kidney won't be getting an extension of any kind.

JRant

Let DK see out his current contract, then open up a process for selecting a coach. If DK still wants the job he can apply, along with any other candidates that may be interested and select on that basis.
Give a certain amount of time to apply, doesn't have to be till the end of the season when negotiations are more feasible.
Regardless of 6N's results I wouldn't like to see a knee-jerk reaction on the selection.

Quint2010

Sorry-but we have been here before. A backs to the wall performance bookended by utter mediocrity. We played well on Saturday but my fear is we will return to type in Feb. I want him gone either way.

conf101

As has been said before, if we win a GS then Kidney will definitely get his contract renewed, no doubt about that.

Considering our history in the 5N/6N, 2 Grand Slams in 5 years wouldn't exactly be a bad return to look back on.

That still doesn't negate the muck rugby we've been playing or the fact that young players only get their chances through injury, but still...

Otacon

Winning a Grand Slam would more than likely require a huge change to Kidney's current M.O. Form players would need to be picked. We would need to play a completely different game-plan to the one he usually uses. Over the tournament, he would need to manage the players' health and fitness with substitutions and rotation.

If he does all of those, we play like we know we can for the entire tournament and end up winning the Grand Slam, I would see that as a complete change in form for Kidney and accept an extension up until the end of the next RWC.

pickarooney

Unless Kidney is actually privately criticising the players for the style and manner in which we beat Argentina, I don't see how it can be considered his fault if the same players put in a turgid, disjointed performance next time out. They know as well as he does what works and ultimately they need to make it happen on the pitch.

molloyjh

pickarooney wrote: »

Unless Kidney is actually privately criticising the players for the style and manner in which we beat Argentina, I don't see how it can be considered his fault if the same players put in a turgid, disjointed performance next time out. They know as well as he does what works and ultimately they need to make it happen on the pitch.

So they should ignore Kidney if he doesn't tell them to do the same thing all over again? And then they should ditch the work they do in training in favour of a game plan they haven't done in training? And the game plan that hasn't been practised should come off without a hitch?

Not sure about that myself...

.ak

pickarooney wrote: »

Unless Kidney is actually privately criticising the players for the style and manner in which we beat Argentina, I don't see how it can be considered his fault if the same players put in a turgid, disjointed performance next time out. They know as well as he does what works and ultimately they need to make it happen on the pitch.

That's debatable. For example, the positioning of the backs on saturday was a world apart from what we've seen before. Sexton didn't turn around after the anthems and say 'Right lads, play up here beside me'.

All of that is done at a coaching level. It's impossible for players to turn that around themselves, because you then have 15 players running around on different wavelengths without options.

The key to it is Kidney needs to wake up and smell the roses - the game plan he introduced is the right one, and should be used more often. At the moment it's being utilized once every 6 or 7 games.

ray jay

Otacon wrote: »

Winning a Grand Slam would more than likely require a huge change to Kidney's current M.O. Form players would need to be picked. We would need to play a completely different game-plan to the one he usually uses. Over the tournament, he would need to manage the players' health and fitness with substitutions and rotation.

Exactly. Despite the good win over Argentina, Kidney is still displaying the usual flaws - poor use of the bench, introducing new players only when his hand is forced, etc. 2009's 6N result was no indicator of what our performance was going to be like for the following years, and so I wouldn't be particularly happy to see him retain the coaching role even if we got a grand slam by playing excellent rugby. It would be the one circumstance under which I wouldn't be baffled by his retention though.

I'm sure the IRFU would find it very difficult to drop him if we won the 6N even if we played poorly.

[Jackass]

If Declan Kidney coaches Ireland to a Grand Slam this season, I will start a thread taking suggestions for a forefit that I will post on boards.

I will post a photo of myself standing naked on Grafton Street, I will hold a banner outside Leinster House reading "Kenny OUT! Kidney is our man!" I will somehow get a meeting with Declan Kidney and I will kiss him on his sweaty shiny head and post pictures here, any forefit you like. That's how confident I am of us not getting within an arses roar of a grand slam this season.

FEEL FREE TO QUOTE ME ON THAT!

19543261

[Jackass] wrote: »

If Declan Kidney coaches Ireland to a Grand Slam this season, I will start a thread taking suggestions for a forefit that I will post on boards...

Now if we dont, I've one more thing to be happy about.

..mhmm...naked...

Quint2010

[Jackass] wrote: »

If Declan Kidney coaches Ireland to a Grand Slam this season, I will start a thread taking suggestions for a forefit that I will post on boards.

I will post a photo of myself standing naked on Grafton Street, I will hold a banner outside Leinster House reading "Kenny OUT! Kidney is our man!" I will somehow get a meeting with Declan Kidney and I will kiss him on his sweaty shiny head and post pictures here, any forefit you like. That's how confident I am of us not getting within an arses roar of a grand slam this season.

FEEL FREE TO QUOTE ME ON THAT!

I felt free so...

CatFromHue

[Jackass] wrote: »

If Declan Kidney coaches Ireland to a Grand Slam this season, I will start a thread taking suggestions for a forefit that I will post on boards.

I will post a photo of myself standing naked on Grafton Street, I will hold a banner outside Leinster House reading "Kenny OUT! Kidney is our man!" I will somehow get a meeting with Declan Kidney and I will kiss him on his sweaty shiny head and post pictures here, any forefit you like. That's how confident I am of us not getting within an arses roar of a grand slam this season.

FEEL FREE TO QUOTE ME ON THAT!

I wouldn't be that confident to be honest.

Scotland and Wales are in disarray at the moment and Italy will be Italy. We won't play Italy until the last game too.

Our lack of a proper back up tighthead cost us dearly against England last season and since then we've had three new players play tighthead, all who looked to have done well at scrum time.

France obviously will be very difficult.

A Grand Slam is always unlikely but not that far from reality for us.

totallegend

pickarooney wrote: »

Unless Kidney is actually privately criticising the players for the style and manner in which we beat Argentina, I don't see how it can be considered his fault if the same players put in a turgid, disjointed performance next time out. They know as well as he does what works and ultimately they need to make it happen on the pitch.

Hmmm.

Well, there are a number of possibilities:

1) The players can't execute his game plan, which seems to be what you're saying.
2) The players do execute his game plan most of the time, that's why we lose so much, but when they go off script, good things happen (that's my theory).
3) Kidney had an epiphany, suddenly realised that what he's been doing for the last four years (in terms of both tactics and selection) doesn't work any more and he turned the ship around in record time and that's why we hockeyed the Argies.

The only one of these that should save Kidney's job is #3.

If we go out in the 6N and play the sort of open, attacking rugby that we saw against Argentina and we see younger guys genuinely being given a shot over the course of the tournament, then I'd be happy for DK to stay on, even if we lost a game or two.

[PS: if you can't blame Kidney for the defeats, how can you credit him for the victories?]

molloyjh

[Jackass] wrote: »

If Declan Kidney coaches Ireland to a Grand Slam this season, I will start a thread taking suggestions for a forefit that I will post on boards.

I will post a photo of myself standing naked on Grafton Street, I will hold a banner outside Leinster House reading "Kenny OUT! Kidney is our man!" I will somehow get a meeting with Declan Kidney and I will kiss him on his sweaty shiny head and post pictures here, any forefit you like. That's how confident I am of us not getting within an arses roar of a grand slam this season.

FEEL FREE TO QUOTE ME ON THAT!

For as much as I agree with the opinion that we won't be winning a GS next year, this really does have all the hallmarks of a backfire! :pac:

Wales first up, in the Millennium Stadium, against a side they are now very confident against (look at their record against us in the Pro12 as well as internationally lately) who also have a point to prove. That's going to be a seriously tough encounter. It may well end that new thread at the off.

it would be tough to argue against 2 grand slams in 5 years after i think 62 without one even with the shocking performances in between i think you would have to keep him on.

but to be honest i think its unlikely we've played shocking for so long one good result does not make us a grand slam team all of a sudden wales, england and france have been consistently better than us for the last year in my opinion and one series of ais during which they have performed poorly and we have lost to sa, beaten one of the worst fiji sides in year and had one good game against a tired argie team does not change that.

i was delighted to see us play well against Argentina it was a pleasure to watch and yes i feel a grand slam should keep kidney in a job but lets not get carried away we are so far away from that right now its not worth talking about


.......in my opinion:D

Tox56

molloyjh wrote: »

For as much as I agree with the opinion that we won't be winning a GS next year, this really does have all the hallmarks of a backfire! :pac:

Wales first up, in the Millennium Stadium, against a side they are now very confident against (look at their record against us in the Pro12 as well as internationally lately) who also have a point to prove. That's going to be a seriously tough encounter. It may well end that new thread at the off.

But on the flip side, if we do win that game the players will be high on confidence and we will have momentum. We also have the two biggest dangers (France and England) at home.

Is it unlikely we will win a GS? Yes, but it's not impossible. This is a very weak international era (in the Northern Hemisphere at least).

CatFromHue

Realistically a decision on the Irish management's contract's will have to be made either before or during the start of the 6N's. I can't see the IRFU waiting until after the competition to make a decision, even if their contracts run until after the tour to America in the Summer.

CatFromHue

CatFromHue wrote: »

Realistically a decision on the Irish management's contract's will have to be made either before or during the start of the 6N's. I can't see the IRFU waiting until after the competition to make a decision, even if their contracts run until after the tour to America in the Summer.

have you ever heard of the irfu not exactly known for there logic. they mite not realise kidneys contract is done until he does not turn up for work one day

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

But on the flip side, if we do win that game the players will be high on confidence and we will have momentum. We also have the two biggest dangers (France and England) at home.

Is it unlikely we will win a GS? Yes, but it's not impossible. This is a very weak international era (in the Northern Hemisphere at least).

I think it's weak generally among the top teams, NZ being the exception (and France possibly now). Australia have been poor and SA haven't looked great either. I'd say Argentina are on par with expectation after their first Rugby Championship and set to improve massively. But outside of NZ right now we can't really say there are any great teams.

tolosenc

Absolutely not. The only reason he's still in the job is that its cheaper not to fire him. His track record is one of cluelessness and failure, and should not be perpetuated.

tolosenc

tolosenc wrote: »

Absolutely not. The only reason he's still in the job is that its cheaper not to fire him. His track record is one of cluelessness and failure, and should not be perpetuated.

but regardless of performance wouldnt 2 grand slams be a damn good track record

Burgo

[Jackass] wrote: »

If Declan Kidney coaches Ireland to a Grand Slam this season, I will start a thread taking suggestions for a forefit that I will post on boards.

I will post a photo of myself standing naked on Grafton Street, I will hold a banner outside Leinster House reading "Kenny OUT! Kidney is our man!" I will somehow get a meeting with Declan Kidney and I will kiss him on his sweaty shiny head and post pictures here, any forefit you like. That's how confident I am of us not getting within an arses roar of a grand slam this season.

FEEL FREE TO QUOTE ME ON THAT!

Perfect sig fodder til the 6 nations lest anyone forget.

tolosenc

Mira Fat Doe wrote: »

but regardless of performance wouldnt 2 grand slams be a damn good track record

That's not really how a track record works.

PhatPiggins

goreyguy wrote: »

Thinking extremely positively(and unlikely), would a GS in the next 6N be enough to convince that Kidney should be offered an extension?

Look Eddie it doesn't matter now many anti-Kidney threads you start, you're not getting your job back.

tolosenc

tolosenc wrote: »

That's not really how a track record works.

championship wins are not relevant to track record? go on then educate me

slowburner

Kidney has one major fault - he reacts to situations rather than anticipating them.
That is the root of the lack of consistency.
He got it right against Argentina, because he was reacting to the two previous games, and he came up with a bloody good gameplan.
That makes him predictable, and that is what will lose the 6n.
We'll have a couple of uplifting performances sure, but we'll not be lifting that trophy.

Kidney's tenure will not be an issue thereafter.

Leinster7

We'll be lucky to win 3 games.

tolosenc

Mira Fat Doe wrote: »

championship wins are not relevant to track record? go on then educate me

Are you deliberately misinterpreting things?

You said

Mira Fat Doe wrote: »

but regardless of performance wouldnt 2 grand slams be a damn good track record

2 grand slams is not a track record. A track record is the culmination of EVERYTHING that has come to pass. You can't just selectively chose things to go in to it. It's like saying "argument X is true, because if we ignore the mountain of evidence to the contrary, and aknowledge the small amount of supporting evidence, it's cleat that all the evidence is supportive"

Kidney is so far in the red that he can't be saved. He signed his own death warrant by pandering to certain egos and refusing to modernise both the squad and the style of play.

He should be but a distant memory at this stage, unfortunately we have 5 more games to endure. He has ridden the 09 Grand Slam way further than anyone thought possible.

Keeping him on would set a bad precedent for the IRFU: "We'll hire you, and if you turn out to be ****e, we'll wait till you're not and then give you another contract."

tolosenc

Leinster7 wrote: »

We'll be lucky to win 3 games.

We'll lose to France, England and Wales. They are all substantially better than Kidney has us playing. Scotland with Visser and a new coach in Murrayfield could take us (we've won 2 and lost 2 against them since the last Grand Slam). Italy in have beaten France and pushed England close in the last 2 competitions, as well as Australia last week, and are never pushovers in Rome.

A wooden spoon is far more likely than a grand slam.

PhatPiggins

tolosenc wrote: »

We'll lose to France, England and Wales. They are all substantially better than Kidney has us playing. Scotland with Visser and a new coach in Murrayfield could take us (we've won 2 and lost 2 against them since the last Grand Slam). Italy in have beaten France and pushed England close in the last 2 competitions, as well as Australia last week, and are never pushovers in Rome.

A wooden spoon is far more likely than a grand slam.

Ireland are poor there's no masking it but England and Wales have been equally poor. I'd give us no chance against France but anything could happen against the other two.

Scotland could have a Graham Henry/ Jake White dream ticket but stick the words De Luca,Ford,Morrison,LamountX2 into the equation and they've no hope.

Italy look like they're getting worse tbh.

ionadnapokot

Yes.

Because he will have proved that his illogical ways, were in fact logical all along and our simple rugby brains couldnt comprehend his rugby genius.

molloyjh

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Yes.

Because he will have proved that his illogical ways, were in fact logical all along and our simple rugby brains couldnt comprehend his rugby genius.

Lulling them all into a false sense of security eh? :eek:

circos

This is the most even poll ive seen in a long time, if not ever...

Quint2010

circos wrote: »

This is the most even poll ive seen in a long time, if not ever...

Gerry keeps setting up accounts...