Fattening Bulls.. How Much Meal?

Jamesleacy501

Would you fatten a bull in 60-70 days on 10-11 kg meal/day plus straw??

bob charles

Jamesleacy501 wrote: »

Would you fatten a bull in 60-70 days on 10-11 kg meal/day plus straw??

No, unless a small stocky AA of HE breed bull getting close to finish, 10kgs of meal this day of the year wouldnt be adequate. Im not an ablib feeder as I can never see the economics of it

6480

Jamesleacy501 wrote: »

Would you fatten a bull in 60-70 days on 10-11 kg meal/day plus straw??

i ed say 80 to 90 days all depending on age and current condition , if i was fattening bulls i would have them on meal adlib

Jamesleacy501

Thanks for replying bob.. Well have you any idea how much a bull would eat if he was reared on the farm and slaughtered at 16 mths? i was thinking 720 kgs of meal?
Also how long would he be on ad lib meal for, if anyone knows?

bob charles

Jamesleacy501 wrote: »

Thanks for replying bob.. Well have you any idea how much a bull would eat if he was reared on the farm and slaughtered at 16 mths? i was thinking 720 kgs of meal?
Also how long would he be on ad lib meal for, if anyone knows?

I would think you would be around a 1.5t of meal maybe get away with a 1.25 when you consider the meal eaten as a calf if continentals etc. finishing period would be around 120days. What breeds are you talking about. one dead one and the house of cards comes tumbling down. The outlay of ad lib finishing is just crazy. I was very impressed with a few traditional breed HEX's this year finished on a very low cost diet around 15 - 17 months, didnt come into big weights 320kgs dead but left a good few quid.

Jamesleacy501

Yeah so 12 - 12.5 kg /day? Would it :O a lot of money tied up so and if one dies as you say all profit is wiped out!! Nope more like lm x ch x sim kind of a mix!!! I suppose the period that the hex were on meal would be shorter aswell seen as they would lay down fat quicker?

Jamesleacy501

6480 wrote: »

i ed say 80 to 90 days all depending on age and current condition , if i was fattening bulls i would have them on meal adlib

Yeah it seems likt the only way that bulls are finished.. iv seen a few lads finish bullocks on ad lib meal also!!

Farmer Pudsey

It depends on there condition if they have condition you can get flesh on them easy. I always only feed about 10-11kgs and good silage around 70+ DMD and above 30DM. If bulls are hard at this stage of the year it will take 120 days for contenintals, 140 for fresians and 100 days for Herefords and Angus's

You want a good ration something around 14% protein with cereals ( barley/Wheat/Maize) for energy and rapeseed for protein and soyahulls for fibre. Good silage is the key no point in feeding them poor quality silage.

bob charles

I agree with the above, a top class forage and just a nice sprinkle of meal (sprinkle = 8kgs +:D). When we used to finish allot of bulls back in the early ninties, we had them in a paddock system and would start feeding them around July onwards (16 months) would start off at 3kgs of meal (they would be nicely primed at this stage 500kgs +)right up to under 10kgs of meal to finish. It was complete church work as we used to feed them twice a day and fill meal bags from bulk. All conti bulls and would get them into weights around 400kgs r & u grades. Used leave a good few bob especially with the good old bull premium

ah the good auld days,

Muckit

bob charles wrote: »

I agree with the above, a top class forage and just a nice sprinkle of meal (sprinkle = 8kgs +:D). When we used to finish allot of bulls back in the early ninties, we had them in a paddock system and would start feeding them around July onwards (16 months) would start off at 3kgs of meal (they would be nicely primed at this stage 500kgs +)right up to under 10kgs of meal to finish. It was complete church work as we used to feed them twice a day and fill meal bags from bulk. All conti bulls and would get them into weights around 400kgs r & u grades. Used leave a good few bob especially with the good old bull premium

ah the good auld days,

Is it mainly heifers and feeding cows you buy now Bob or would bullocks enter the equation?

coolshannagh28

bob charles wrote: »

I would think you would be around a 1.5t of meal maybe get away with a 1.25 when you consider the meal eaten as a calf if continentals etc. finishing period would be around 120days. What breeds are you talking about. one dead one and the house of cards comes tumbling down. The outlay of ad lib finishing is just crazy. I was very impressed with a few traditional breed HEX's this year finished on a very low cost diet around 15 - 17 months, didnt come into big weights 320kgs dead but left a good few quid.

I think taking into account the change in our weather patterns and huge increase in commodity prices we have to look again at the traditional breeds, angus and hereford ,.finishing younger with lower carcass weights and utilising the bonus system ,on grass based systems

countygorey

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

I think taking into account the change in our weather patterns and huge increase in commodity prices we have to look again at the traditional breeds, angus and hereford ,.finishing younger with lower carcass weights and utilising the bonus system ,on grass based systems

You are a wise man cold not agree more.

bob charles

Muckit wrote: »

Is it mainly heifers and feeding cows you buy now Bob or would bullocks enter the equation?

Bit of everything but mostly girls nowadays and dont buy weanling bulls for finishing anymore. In the past 50% of our purchases where this time of the year and strong weanling bulls. Worked for many years but as I say the bull premium usually would pay the grain bill and leave a bit to spare. Wasnt it something around €180 per head? Changed system them around the turn of the century.

blue5000

bob charles wrote: »

I agree with the above, a top class forage and just a nice sprinkle of meal (sprinkle = 8kgs +:D). When we used to finish allot of bulls back in the early ninties, we had them in a paddock system and would start feeding them around July onwards (16 months) would start off at 3kgs of meal (they would be nicely primed at this stage 500kgs +)right up to under 10kgs of meal to finish. It was complete church work as we used to feed them twice a day and fill meal bags from bulk. All conti bulls and would get them into weights around 400kgs r & u grades. Used leave a good few bob especially with the good old bull premium

ah the good auld days,

Ah bob you're giving away your age now, ya the good ol' days pre bse, with bull premium, slaughter premium, extensification, su cow sub. Have I forgotten anything, oops 90 p a lb (= 2.52e /kg)

leoch

bob charles wat would ur advice bo on fattening heifers i have a few about 480/500 kgs at the minute chxlimxsimx(18 months+-) how long would it take to finish them and how much stuff and money roughly would it take and wat are heifers making at the factories or would it be better to sell on and let someone who knows wat there are at to do it ?

bob charles

blue5000 wrote: »

Ah bob you're giving away your age now, ya the good ol' days pre bse, with bull premium, slaughter premium, extensification, su cow sub. Have I forgotten anything, oops 90 p a lb (= 2.52e /kg)

have you forgotten brass tags, and any bunch of green cards would get them killed. Testing used to be a nightmare, constantly spitting on your fingers to try and clean the brass tag. I was only knee high to a grass hopper

Farmer Pudsey

blue5000 wrote: »

Ah bob you're giving away your age now, ya the good ol' days pre bse, with bull premium, slaughter premium, extensification, su cow sub. Have I forgotten anything, oops 90 p a lb (= 2.52e /kg)

Bull punch 210 euro's,(I think Bob) 80 slaughter, 80 extensification total 370 euro, barley @ 120/ton, good rations at 160/ton. If a bull consumed 1 ton it is now 140 euro' more. So in total 510 euro's saved.

Bulls made way more than bullocks they were the best kept secret. If bullocks made 2.5/kg bulls were making 15-20 cent/kg more not like now where the underage bullock is making slightly more on the grid and the weanling is costing more to buy. Also fertlizer diesel machinery contractor costs were way cheaper

freedominacup

bob charles wrote: »

I was only knee high to a grass hopper

I'd hate to run into that grasshopper.

freedominacup

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Bull punch 210 euro's,(I think Bob) 80 slaughter, 80 extensification total 370 euro, barley @ 120/ton, good rations at 160/ton. If a bull consumed 1 ton it is now 140 euro' more. So in total 510 euro's saved.

Bulls made way more than bullocks they were the best kept secret. If bullocks made 2.5/kg bulls were making 15-20 cent/kg more not like now where the underage bullock is making slightly more on the grid and the weanling is costing more to buy. Also fertlizer diesel machinery contractor costs were way cheaper

Ah 1998. Silage @ £50/acre, green diesel @18p/litre. The days when guys would put the cap of the fuel tank into the lever on the nozzle to keep it open and go and do a bit of light servicing while the diesel was filling. If a few litres spilled no oul boy was going to have a s**t attack. It wasn't all gravy though. Rents were high esp relative to prices, cattle were valued on their premium nothing to do with what they were actually worth. But some geniuses think we need to go back to coupled subsidies buying cattle because you need them to harvest E.U. cash not because they're going to give you a decent return.

bob charles

freedominacup wrote: »

The days when guys would put the cap of the fuel tank into the lever on the nozzle to keep it open and go and do a bit of light servicing while the diesel was filling.

how very very true :rolleyes:

pakalasa

Back then we were buying 18 month Friesian Bullocks at 400Kg. Year later, up to under 700 Kg, with one punch (€80), Extemsification (€80) and slaughter (€80) thrown in. We were buying them at around £1/Kg too.

vanderbadger

so could whoever bought bizzums weanling at 1400 make money??

freedominacup

vanderbadger wrote: »

so could whoever bought bizzums weanling at 1400 make money??

Bob, Pudsey over to ye

Farmer Pudsey

freedominacup wrote: »

Bob, Pudsey over to ye

What weight and age were they and what breed

vanderbadger

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

What weight and age were they and what breed

Bizzums
Sold a few weanlings bulls tonight. 8 to 10 mths old.
FL22 Lim 460kgs €1050
AI Lim 395kgs €850
CH 400kgs €870
CH 470kgs €1425
CH 490kgs €1430

bob charles

vanderbadger wrote: »

so could whoever bought bizzums weanling at 1400 make money??

for the Irish market not a hope in hell, not going to even bother doing the sums, but just add on a ton of meal to them and they are now costing €1750. They would want to be coming into well over 2k when slaughtered to have a chance of making money. Making money might not be the main interest of whoever bought them;)

Farmer Pudsey

vanderbadger wrote: »

Bizzums
Sold a few weanlings bulls tonight. 8 to 10 mths old.
FL22 Lim 460kgs €1050
AI Lim 395kgs €850
CH 400kgs €870
CH 470kgs €1425
CH 490kgs €1430

A lot will depend on what you are paying for ration however I will take two examples from above last two charlois average weight 480 kgs at the prices paid for them they must be good quality will grade U+ oe E. assuming that on a good diet that they will gain 1.4kgs/day LW. then at the end of 120 day they will have put on 168 kgs to be killled at 58,5% at 380kgs. I thin that these bulls will eat about 12kgs/day DM on average during the finishing period. If we feed 10 kgs ration this is 8,5 kgs DM so they will also eat 3.5 kgs og silage DM which is 12kgs silage that is 30%DM. I find bales the best as I place one in front of pen and let them feed the silage ad lib so silage will cost 35 cent/day. I normally have dryer silage than 30DM for bulls. so it costs a bit less. If you ration costs 300/ton then it will cost 3.35/day.

However most finishers use straights or can buy ration a bit cheaper. These quality bulls may conver a bit better however I cannot see it costing less than 3/day so it will cost between 360 and 402 to finish. Allow 50 euro for mart fees transport and sales fees. allow another 50 for losses, feeding costs, animal medicine and intrest so it will cost from 460-502 to finish so these bulls will cost you 1430 + 460= 1890 euro's minimum. 1950/380 =4.97/kg to break even at slaughter


Now the plain 400kg charlois that made 870 will take longerto finish as he was not hot. Neither will he have the quality so for 160 days he may only gain 1.2kgs/day gaining 192kgs so he will be 592 kgs at slaughter K/O 55% killing 325kgs. As he is a lighter bull he will consume 10kgs DM/day it may be hard to get him to 10kgs ration so we set him at 8.5 ration=7.3 kgs DM so on average he will eat 2.7 kgs silage DM = 9kgs/day costing 25 cent/day. this is 2.8/day for you or me but maybe 2.5 for the bigger lad so it will cost 400 to finish and 100 for trans etc as above so he is costing 1370 at killing 4.25/kg. The 400kg bull would have been on a higher plane of nutrition (higher % of ration) however would be gone stale after 140 days but he be the less likly to lose you money

Bob might have different costings

blue5000

bob charles wrote: »

have you forgotten brass tags, and any bunch of green cards would get them killed. Testing used to be a nightmare, constantly spitting on your fingers to try and clean the brass tag. I was only knee high to a grass hopper

Reminds me of a vet doin a test where a lot of molasses was been fed out of one of them keenan 3 pt linkage gravity applicators. They had to use kettles of boiling water to wash the molasses off the tags:(

jfh

vanderbadger wrote: »

Bizzums
Sold a few weanlings bulls tonight. 8 to 10 mths old.
FL22 Lim 460kgs €1050
AI Lim 395kgs €850
CH 400kgs €870
CH 470kgs €1425
CH 490kgs €1430

there were good price vanderbadger, you sell in ennis?
i've got a few bull weanlings myself, thinking off bringing them on a day out to the Bridge on saturday, there's a fat stock sale on, prob weight just over 500. suppose they'd take 6 weeks to finish. hard to tell if i should keep them until jan, but that's a dilemma alot of lads will have.

vanderbadger

jfh wrote: »

there were good price vanderbadger, you sell in ennis?
i've got a few bull weanlings myself, thinking off bringing them on a day out to the Bridge on saturday, there's a fat stock sale on, prob weight just over 500. suppose they'd take 6 weeks to finish. hard to tell if i should keep them until jan, but that's a dilemma alot of lads will have.

no i wish
they were bizzums calfs, i was just copying that from another thread where he posted them, last day i was in ennis about 2 weeks back plenty of big chars making over a grand, just wondered how lads can make it pay

poor farmer

Anyone having problems with acidosis . I am feeding bulls 12 kg/day of high maize finisher ration ,fed morning and evening with straw and dry bale silage ad-lib.The eat well for the first 6-8 weeks but then seem to loose appetite.

Any replies appreciated

vanderbadger

poor farmer wrote: »

Anyone having problems with acidosis . I am feeding bulls 12 kg/day of high maize finisher ration ,fed morning and evening with straw and dry bale silage ad-lib.The eat well for the first 6-8 weeks but then seem to loose appetite.

Any replies appreciated

Justin has a small piece on it in journal today

bob charles

poor farmer wrote: »

Anyone having problems with acidosis . I am feeding bulls 12 kg/day of high maize finisher ration ,fed morning and evening with straw and dry bale silage ad-lib.The eat well for the first 6-8 weeks but then seem to loose appetite.

Any replies appreciated

Yeah used to find animals kinda go stale on ad lib meal after so long and performance really drops off.

Re acidosis - it is a serious problem and costs allot of money if you start getting problems. a properly constructed diet usually doesnt cause acidosis. You could use a continuous buffer to avoid this by adding i think 150g Sodium bicarb to each animal each day but this is expensive. If you get a problem best get water and sodium bicarb + magnesium/calcium into the stomach asap to neutralise things. But acidosis is best deal with before it may become a problem and economically much cheaper than fire brigade action.

freedominacup

poor farmer wrote: »

Anyone having problems with acidosis . I am feeding bulls 12 kg/day of high maize finisher ration ,fed morning and evening with straw and dry bale silage ad-lib.The eat well for the first 6-8 weeks but then seem to loose appetite.

Any replies appreciated

Just a comment lads on the ad-lib meal feeding. Coming at it from a point of almost complete ignorance admittedly:o. I have been wondering how guys were making it work TBH. We often fed 10-12kgs concentrates to cows in a TMR where the DMIs were 22-24kgs day. On a fresh weight basis concentates made up 20-25% of the ration and we were always watching for digestive and feet problems but farmers seemed to be able to give ad-lib concentrates to cattle with a shake of straw/ dry silage and happy days. It has always seemed to me that the digestive and feet problems had to be there just under the surface. The feet you can probably get away with they'll be gone before it's a real difficulty and in general high meal feeding leads to more long term problems in that area.

On the digestion side of things acidosis isn't the only "osis" that could cause a problem and there are a couple of "itis"es that could cause you trouble as well.

On the acidosis the sodium bi-carb will help we used to get it in 25kg bags and for a sick animal a few bottles of milk of magnesia might work as well as anything. Getting a more balanced diet into them would be important IMO, more fibre especially. I'm not commenting on anyone on this thread but it seems to me that a certain amount of beef finishers are making poor quality silage and expecting to bridge the gaps with ad-lib/very high levels of meal feeding, this is a long way from a straight forward solution. Anyone be they dairy or beef who is expecting animals to perform indoors must have quality forage on hand, concentrates are too expensive and troublesome to be relied on to do the whole job.

bob charles

freedominacup wrote: »

On the acidosis the sodium bi-carb will help we used to get it in 25kg bags and for a sick animal a few bottles of milk of magnesia might work as well as anything. Getting a more balanced diet into them would be important IMO, more fibre especially. I'm not commenting on anyone on this thread but it seems to me that a certain amount of beef finishers are making poor quality silage and expecting to bridge the gaps with ad-lib/very high levels of meal feeding, this is a long way from a straight forward solution. Anyone be they dairy or beef who is expecting animals to perform indoors must have quality forage on hand, concentrates are too expensive and troublesome to be relied on to do the whole job.

in a nutshell thats why I cant see how ad lib meal works and wouldnt advocate it, if you have to routinely put sodium bicarb into the diet there is a major flaw somewhere.

The most important thing for a farmer trying for top performances during the winter is to firstly make a very very high quality forage, be that silage, maize wholecrop whatever. once that is made it is very easy to construct a diet around it. Make crap forage and your at a hiding to nothing no matter how much concentrate you throw at them

Farmer Pudsey

When I have bulls on the finishing diet @ about 600kgs LW they are on 10kgs/day and like I said I have good quality silage 70DMD or above and I alwys use the dry bales some of these would be 35++DM. I can only feed them once a day so all 10kgs goes in front of then and they have access to the silage at all times. I include 1% limestone flour in the ration and I use a yeast I never have any issue with accidosis or feet problems(laminisis) As about 25-30% of the diest is good quality silage I do not have to worry about fibre and they move along nicly.

vanderbadger

to bob and pudsey
would ye ever rear their own cattle all the way to slaughter, i mean keep a herd of sucklers, would it be more viable than trying to buy top weanlings?

Farmer Pudsey

vanderbadger wrote: »

to bob and pudsey
would ye ever rear their own cattle all the way to slaughter, i mean keep a herd of sucklers, would it be more viable than trying to buy top weanlings?

No did you not ever hear the saying that ''one farmer has to make a loss for another to make a proft''.

Seriously though due to my work I would be caught calving cows. I have very little intrest in cows any way. Finishing is a maths buisness the numbers either add up or don't. My own opinion is that it ie unenomical to keep sucklers cows, however some land is only suitable for that, sheep or forrestry.