Drive a long drain diesel? Check your oil.

Pottler

Was reading my favorite mag today, Car Mechanics, and I flicked to the dealer diary section, which I love. The opening passage was about an engine re-manufacturing company banging out 1100 engines a month, mostly for cars 4 years old or less. The reason for that demand was a perception amongst people that extended drain engine oils mean you don't need to use your dipstick between services, leading to low oil levels and dead engines that the warranty will not cover. Thin oils, oil pressured timing chains and oil consumption are the gist of it. Cited as being two of the most common were the Transit and Fiats twinair..

Check your oil levels, apparently, don't assume the bonnet can remain closed between services - anyone had an experience along these lines?

CiniO

I can't imagine driving a car without checking all the fluids at least once a week or 1000km.

On a way between Ireland and Poland which I do from time to time (2500km each way) I check oil at least 3 times on the way.

Casati

CiniO wrote: »

I can't imagine driving a car without checking all the fluids at least once a week or 1000km.

On a way between Ireland and Poland which I do from time to time (2500km each way) I check oil at least 3 times on the way.

And what exactly do you find with all the checking?

Pottler

CiniO wrote: »

I can't imagine driving a car without checking all the fluids at least once a week or 1000km.

On a way between Ireland and Poland which I do from time to time (2500km each way) I check oil at least 3 times on the way.

A lot of people don't though CiniO, they assume because the cars new it does not need checking between services - the fact that low oil levels lead to the oil pressured timing chain tensioner not tightening allows everything to run off and the engine eats itself, despite the newness. This is also not covered under warranty, and a reman/new engine is then needed, which must come as an awful shock to a lot of people if the car is only a year or two old.

joujoujou

CiniO wrote: »

I can't imagine driving a car without checking all the fluids at least once a week or 1000km.

[...]

Same here. Once a week - not too much hassle, I'd say. :]

And I have no diesel at all.

CiniO

Casati wrote: »

And what exactly do you find with all the checking?

Most of the time everything is fine.

But occasionally there is something.

F.e. few months ago I discovered power steering fluid was a bit lower than usual. Few days later is was even lower.
I took a proper look from the pit, and one of low pressure pipes was cracked. I got it fixed, and avoided any further problems which could occur if steering fluid was all gone.

Also my car burns some oil if driven hard.
F.e. if I drive gently for 2000km oil won't go down at all.
But if I floor the car for 500km, oil can go down and need a topup.

F.e after doing about 500km on German autobahn with speeds of excess 180km/h and RPM around 5000rpm or higher, I had to top up about 0.25 litre.

doolox

....heaven.

Pottler

This is not really aimed at the enthusiast tbf, a lot of people dip into this forum for motoring advice but are not that mechanically minded and this might be news to them.:)

CJhaughey

I don't subscribe to these extended drain interval oils anyway, I have a theory that the manufacturers have worked out exactly how long it takes the engine to lunch itself running these longlife oils and the time is just a little bit more than the warranty.
Sure its fine for the first few years but after that? I bet these engines would be much more worn than the same engine with ~10k services with good quality oil.
Lifetime gearbox oil? same thing. If the lifetime is 7 years or so.

Jack breen

Good thread Pottler, I read a thread here last week where a Focus engine died and it hax not being serviced in 20k miles or something mad like that.

corkgsxr

Some cars burn oil some never burn a drop.

If it burns oil you need to check it often. Even one that don't seem to, do it once a month

Long life oil don't sit well with me at all. I lop a 3rd off service intervals. Modern engines have tighter tolerances and less oil.

Gearbox and coolant I'd do every second service.

Might seem excessive but less problems

And besides all that a lot still don't bother with basic servicing, they think a service is something to do when it gives trouble or sounds ****

CrowdedHouse

Bit OT but does synthetic oil have a shelf life ?
I got a top up bottle of Castrol Edge (in a fancy pouch with gloves and paper funnels) about 5 years ago. I never had to use it. I wonder is it still OK ?

CJhaughey

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't subscribe to these extended drain interval oils anyway, I have a theory that the manufacturers have worked out exactly how long it takes the engine to lunch itself running these longlife oils and the time is just a little bit more than the warranty...............

It's also a case of telling f***tards what they want to hear, yippee, only needs a service every 30k kms.

Many cars with full main dealer service histories are arguably poorly maintained.

niloc1951

Pottler wrote: »

......................The opening passage was about an engine re-manufacturing company banging out 1100 engines a month, mostly for cars 4 years old or less. ........................................

Interesting !
I have a vehicle since new with a 2.8 diesel. It needed topping up with about a litre of oil if i remember correctly when it had only a few thousand km's done, I still have the remains of the 2 litre bottle left.............................over 70k kms and seven years later.

Conclusion: new engines will burn some oil and if not checked may end up at a re-manufacturer :eek:

Pottler

RoverJames wrote: »

It's also a case of telling f***tards what they want to hear, yippee, only needs a service every 30k kms.

Many cars with full main dealer service histories are arguably poorly maintained.

True enough. One of our vans has a stated service interval of 40,000 km.:eek: That's a long way to drive without changing the oil. I halved it in my mind and did that, but even 20k seems like a lot. 40k is mad. I wonder how many of the failures of the psa 1.6 hdi s are down to low oil level? With the advent of ultra fast spinning turbo's and down-sized engines (1.2 mondeo:eek:?) will this become more and more of an issue I wonder?

Niloc, that might be common sense to you, but if you know nothing about engines etc, your first inkling of this might be a big bill from your main dealer, somthing a lot of people can ill afford just now. Just because it might be stating the obvious to a mechanically minded person,that doesn't mean that if two people go out and check their oil tomorrow and find it low and top up, the thread is not worthwhile, it could save someone from a big bill/hassle.

CiniO

I wonder something else though.

With today's technology it should be absolutely no problem also as very little cost to make an extra dash light which would indicate straight away when oil level goes below minimum.

I wonder why manufacturers don't start doing this.
Maybe they just want drivers to ruin as many engines as possible, as more new car will be bought then.

Pottler

Also raises the question why trucks will happily do 100k between services and go on to do 2, 3, 4,000,000 km without major issues.:)

sunnysoutheast

CiniO wrote: »

I wonder something else though.

With today's technology it should be absolutely no problem also as very little cost to make an extra dash light which would indicate straight away when oil level goes below minimum.

I wonder why manufacturers don't start doing this.
Maybe they just want drivers to ruin as many engines as possible, as more new car will be bought then.

My 2003 Audi has a low oil level warning, but I don't rely on it.

corkgsxr

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

Bit OT but does synthetic oil have a shelf life ?
I got a top up bottle of Castrol Edge (in a fancy pouch with gloves and paper funnels) about 5 years ago. I never had to use it. I wonder is it still OK ?

Be fine.

Pottler wrote: »

True enough. One of our vans has a stated service interval of 40,000 km.:eek: That's a long way to drive without changing the oil. I halved it in my mind and did that, but even 20k seems like a lot. 40k is mad. I wonder how many of the failures of the psa 1.6 hdi s are down to low oil level? With the advent of ultra fast spinning turbo's and down-sized engines (1.2 mondeo:eek:?) will this become more and more of an issue I wonder?

sle.

Problem isn't low oil on the PSA 1.6, it's the turbo feed pipe was undersized and interval is too long for a tiny amount of oil. Sludge starts to form and blocks the filter at the bottom.

40k is huge miles. Only way it should be that long is if it has a very large amount of oil and even then it's not great.

Come to think of it is my gsxr 600 takes more oil than the 1.6 hdi engine

corkgsxr

corkgsxr wrote: »

......



Problem isn't low oil on the PSA 1.6, it's the turbo feed pipe was undersized and interval is too long for a tiny amount of oil. Sludge starts to form and blocks the filter at the bottom..........

People not following the advised (and essential) oil and filter draining procedure is also a problem, in so far as it's a root cause of sludge formation.

sunnysoutheast

Pottler wrote: »

Also raises the question why trucks will happily do 100k between services and go on to do 2, 3, 4,000,000 km without major issues.:)

How much oil is in one of those though?!

I don't agree with longlife servicing as a rule, either the oil is turned into sludge or it requires so many top-ups of pricey oil that it's effectively being changed anyway but with a dirty filter.

corkgsxr

Pottler wrote: »

Also raises the question why trucks will happily do 100k between services and go on to do 2, 3, 4,000,000 km without major issues.:)

Constant low revs over long distance.

Not generally used for short trips

Big engines under low strain

7-10 gallons of oil compared to 1 for a car

Pottler

corkgsxr wrote: »

Constant low revs over long distance.

Not generally used for short trips

Big engines under low strain

7-10 gallons of oil compared to 1 for a car

Begs the question then, why don't mfr build bigger sumps? I know in the case of auto-gearboxes, any models with small sumps are toast much faster than large-sumped boxes. Would the cost of a larger sump and larger oil capacity not produce benefits for the consumer that would outweigh the costs? It might actually produce genuine long-service interval cars..

corkgsxr

Pottler wrote: »

Begs the question then, why don't mfr build bigger sumps? I know in the case of auto-gearboxes, any models with small sumps are toast much faster than large-sumped boxes. Would the cost of a larger sump and larger oil capacity not produce benefits for the consumer that would outweigh the costs? It might actually produce genuine long-service interval cars..

Other considerations too like

Short trips takes longer for oil to get to temp leading to worse water contamination.

For cars it's better less oil changed more often. But IMO oil amounts have gotten too low alright

mfceiling

And the wonderful team at audi don't have a dipstick in their engines.

A computer readout on the onboard screen.........how can you trust that to read it perfectly?

Pottler

Main thing is, if you own a car on a long-change interval, check your oil level on a regular basis, dont just trust that it will be fine until the next service.

Pottler

Pottler wrote: »

This is not really aimed at the enthusiast tbf, a lot of people dip into this forum for motoring advice but are not that mechanically minded and this might be news to them.:)

Regularly checking oil levels would be news to many so called enthusiasts too
No talking to gnomes though.

dgt

CiniO wrote: »

I wonder something else though.

With today's technology it should be absolutely no problem also as very little cost to make an extra dash light which would indicate straight away when oil level goes below minimum.

I wonder why manufacturers don't start doing this.
Maybe they just want drivers to ruin as many engines as possible, as more new car will be bought then.

Light? I have an oil level indicator. 1998 car.

Still check the dipstick and coolant every morning though

Wheelnut

CiniO wrote: »

... as very little cost to make an extra dash light which would indicate straight away when oil level goes below minimum.

The sort of people we're talking about ignore lights on the dash because they don't know what they mean. (A few of them post in here because they don't have the initiative to look in the handbook). A quick observation of the number of people driving with rear fog lights on because they don't know what the warning light is for will bear out my point. Besides, many cars are already fitted with oil-level warning lights.

Popoutman

Find out for sure if your oil is working correctly, instead of second-guessing the mechanical engineers and tribologists that actually know what they are on about. There's absolutely no point in putting €60 of oil in twice as often as needed if the oil is doing its job correctly, and if you've put the correct oil in in the first place. Just because a long service interval doesn't feel right to someone that has no education or knowledge in the matter (and an average mechanic does not have this knowledge in my experience) is no reason to disbelieve the engineers.

Send a sample off to this crowd: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/.

I've used them in the past to verify that the long-life interval was appropriate for my A4. (It was..) They'll check the oil for dissolved metals, and other cointaminants, and to measure the lubrication properties and compare to the original oil.

Too many Irish drivers do not understand the value in using the correct grade of oil in their engines, especially if those engines are unusual in their lubrication requirements. As an example the VAG PD diesels *need* the VW-spec oil for the camshaft/injection pump junction.

I've been on the extended oil interval in my A4 tdi for ~ 6 years, and I know it was on the extended interval when it was a fleet car in England before I got it. No engine-related issues attributable to poor or underperforming oil. My A4 has a conductivity sensor in the oil that measures the dissolved metals in the oil, and uses this to assist the calculation for life left in the oil. There's also a low-level sensor and I've found that to be accurate and very useful after 1000km of 150kph+ with roofracks full and camping gear in the back across the continent a few years ago, the oil consumption took about a 1/4 litre in the days driving.

If you own a car with a long-service oil interval, and you are doing mileage that you hit the service interval for distance travelled instead of time travelled, and you have the correct oil in the engine, then it's perfectly safe to maintain the car at that interval. Don't let go too far over that interval if possible. But don't change oil unneccessarily early, as that's only throwing money away.

Still good practice to dip the fluids every so often, that's just common sense and good practice.

Pottler

Good points^, but it's not the long drain interval, it's the fact the engine is consuming oil over the time and the levels are dropping to the point of damage without being topped up.

Tea 1000

CiniO wrote: »

I wonder something else though.

With today's technology it should be absolutely no problem also as very little cost to make an extra dash light which would indicate straight away when oil level goes below minimum.

I wonder why manufacturers don't start doing this.
Maybe they just want drivers to ruin as many engines as possible, as more new car will be bought then.

Some Peugeot 306's had this back in the day. Turn the key and a little oil level indicator would show you exactly what was in it.

joujoujou

No light on dash, no on-board computer will replace owner's brain.

BrianD3

I would have thought that most cars would now have an oil level indicator on the dash rather than just an idiot light. Every Renault I've owned or driven for the last 15+ years has indicated the oil level on turning the key. Older models have a gauge, later ones have a "OOOOO" display. The Megane III has the OOOOO and also a "top up oil" message when the oil is at about the minimum level on the dipstick.

I have found the displays to be accurate and relaible. As a result I rarely use the dipstick now.

The Renault 19 16v had a gauge which functioned as an oil level gauge on turning the key and as an oil pressure gauge with the engine running. Lesser models just had the oil level function

tossy

Casati wrote: »

And what exactly do you find with all the checking?

Things you never will

ian87

My 320d tells me on the idrive that my oil levels are at maximum. My dipstick tells me it is at a dangerously close to min mark. I know which one I trust..

Pottler

"Dipstick, check the oil":D