aer lingus cork new york

zone 1

I read some where muller maybe looking at flying from cork with a320 neo or maybe leased a330 from some american airline in the future.

EI-DOR

A320 to Newyork? No thanks!

dercu

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/aer-lingus-considers-us-routes-from-cork--214808.html

Is this what you read?
Think the reporter miss heard and miss quoted about the A330-200. Aer Lingus had an A330 leased to United. When this route/contract ended the aircraft returned to Ireland. This is what will give them the extra capacity next year.

Strumms

id be suprised that there would be a market for it in the current climate with SNN only up the road practicly. You'd have 2 very diluted routes. I would imagine that if EI had 75s that it would be worth a go all be ikt not daily but they are hardly likley going to drop one or two of those into the fleet.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Strumms wrote: »

id be suprised that there would be a market for it in the current climate with SNN only up the road practicly. You'd have 2 very diluted routes.

At the same time, there's probably no harm in them putting a toe in the water and just seeing if there's demand. The lack of pre-clearance at Cork might be a mild inconvenience, but hardly fatal.

omega man

zone 1 wrote: »

I read some where muller maybe looking at flying from cork with a320 neo or maybe leased a330 from some american airline in the future.

Think it was the A321 NEO ex Cork and Belfast to JFK.

donvito99

Why offer a service from Cork when the hub at Dublin would be made more successful by a new route or added frequency?

4 million people with a small airline ALREADY serving NAmerica from 2 destinations.

Bessarion

The Nov 23rd Irish Examiner articlelinked above seesm to be taking its info from this Nov 21st online aviation article:
http://www.aviationweek.com/awmobile/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/avd_11_21_2012_p01-02-519533.xml

The Examiner even references the article....."His comments were reported by Aviation Week in an article which outlined the airline’s plans to bolster its transatlantic fleet with a new aircraft"

The article is incorrect in that the 'extra' A330 being added to the 2013 EI fleet is in fact the EI A330 that they had operating out of Washington over the last 3 years as part of a joint venture with United Airlines. This additional aircraft will allow EI to offer more flights per week on its US network.

As for the A321NEO, it is a upgrade on the current A320 family that gives better fuel efficiency and more range. EI have indicated that having a couple of them would allow them to operate daily JFK/BOS flights from Shannon as well as offering the possibility of US flights from Cork and/or Belfast.

Notice how many US airlines operate B757's into Ireland, this smaller aircraft is more viable on these routes.They are approx than 180 seats so easier to fill than a 250+ seat widebody.

EI currently have a 3/4 mix out of Shannon to JFK/BOS. Thats 2100 seats a week between the 2 destinations. With some A321NEO (approx 160 seats maybe?) they could offer daily flights with a weekly capacity of approx 1100 seats to each city.

donvito99

Also. the A321Neo isn't planned to do transatlantic, says Airbus.

Strumms

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

At the same time, there's probably no harm in them putting a toe in the water and just seeing if there's demand. The lack of pre-clearance at Cork might be a mild inconvenience, but hardly fatal.

well before they'd put a toe in the water they would need to do a feasibility study. Just in my mind anyone in the Cork Airport catchment area who wanted to go to JFK per say or onwards wouldnt find it a major inconvenience to go to SNN and have the preclearance.

If you were to stick say an A330 from both airports you'd be looking at a significient dilution in loadfactors ex-SNN while increasing your cost base by running a second aircraft who most of those passangers ex-ORK would just be flying out of SNN if that would be their only route. I doubt it would be a money maker for EI but what does suprise me is that another carrier hasnt thrown in a 757 in there starting of 3 or 4 times weekly and seeing how that goes.

donvito99

If anyone is to start Cork - New York, its United. So lobby them.

Bessarion

donvito99 wrote: »

Also. the A321Neo isn't planned to do transatlantic, says Airbus.

True it still lacks the range of the B757 but the current range projections would allow UK/Ireland-East coast ops.

And it isn't due into service until 2015.


@Strumms.....a A330 ORK-JFK/BOS would not be feasible. Too large an aircraft, too short a runway, no US pre-clearance, too close to SNN.
Personally I doubt we will see T/A from Cork, but you never know, Uited may want to dip their toe in. I see BFS-Canada more likely from EI. (note 'more likely' then T/A from Cork....not suggesting its going to happen)

drdeadlift

isnt there an issue with the turning circle/nosewheel setup on the 330?

omega man

drdeadlift wrote: »

isnt there an issue with the turning circle/nosewheel setup on the 330?

Yep I believe that's the issue. cork runway 17/35 is within limits for 330.

Strumms

Bessarion wrote: »

True it still lacks the range of the B757 but the current range projections would allow UK/Ireland-East coast ops.

And it isn't due into service until 2015.


@Strumms.....a A330 ORK-JFK/BOS would not be feasible. Too large an aircraft, too short a runway, no US pre-clearance, too close to SNN.
Personally I doubt we will see T/A from Cork, but you never know, Uited may want to dip their toe in. I see BFS-Canada more likely from EI. (note 'more likely' then T/A from Cork....not suggesting its going to happen)

Totally yup, just using the scenario as an example. Hey maybe there is another sceanario I overlooked here....Forget about ORK-JFK but instead the other way around. There must be plenty of American tourists who would rather have a direct link into the tourist catchments of the very South. If say United came in with a 757 again maybe 3 times weekly and were competitive and marketed it properly ? Could be a winner, Maybe when we ain't in the ****.

drdeadlift

omega man wrote: »

Yep I believe that's the issue. cork runway 17/35 is within limits for 330.

Think ei claimed the 330 had tec problems turning the aircraft in tight turns even if the space was there to do so.

LeftBase

The 2 and a bit hours to Dublin on the Motorway may be far less time than you would spend standing in line in JFK at immigration. God knows what would happen if your ended up behind a 747 from Pakistan or Yemen!

We're a small island in a big ocean that struggles to justify 2 transatlantic airports, nevermind 3!

roundymac

donvito99 wrote: »

Why offer a service from Cork when the hub at Dublin would be made more successful by a new route or added frequency?

4 million people with a small airline ALREADY serving NAmerica from 2 destinations.

Plenty of people fly Ork/LHR/JFK or ORK/AMS/JFK rather than fly from SNN/DUB. The excuse about the turning circle was an excuse by EI not to offer flights from Cork. While there is an Airbus problem with the nose wheel how come both My Travel and Monarch were able to operate A330s on rugby specials over the years.

highlydebased

roundymac wrote: »

Plenty of people fly Ork/LHR/JFK or ORK/AMS/JFK rather than fly from SNN/DUB. The excuse about the turning circle was an excuse by EI not to offer flights from Cork. While there is an Airbus problem with the nose wheel how come both My Travel and Monarch were able to operate A330s on rugby specials over the years.

I think the EI restriction comes from operations as opposed to the conspiracy you suggest

roundymac

highlydebased wrote: »

I think the EI restriction comes from operations as opposed to the conspiracy you suggest

I'm never mentioned a conspiracy. Most people here know an A330 is not viable out of ORK, it's just such a lame excuse trotted out by EI that annoys me.

zone 1

drdeadlift wrote: »

Think ei claimed the 330 had tec problems turning the aircraft in tight turns even if the space was there to do so.

but cork can take 747..

Strumms

I don't know enough about ORK to say for definite that they can't take a wide body as mentioned above as in an A330 or 747 but it is possible that the runway may not be long enough to accommodate a fully loaded jet with required fuel for the transatlantic trip.

basill

Its the turning circle for the A330 that prohibits their operation in ORK. Its in our company docs.

As for the A321NEO we will have to wait and see. There are a number of airlines pushing Airbus to seek ETOPS certification so that will probably come about in due course.

Of more significance is that the earliest delivery dates given are 2015. Most aircraft are delivered late due to unforseen problems in production. So lets call that 2016 at the earliest. That is 3 years away at a minimum and anyone who knows anything about aviation will understand the cycles which it goes through. There could well be another ME war, 9/11, oil price spike, flu etc etc. ILFC seem to be the launch customer but its unclear who they have lined up to take delivery. AL would probably be down the list someways although there are talks of cost synergies with Etihad so you never know we might end up with a lot more pull than previously with the manufacturers and leasing companies.

Who knows what will happen that far out.

Bessarion

roundymac wrote: »

....how come both My Travel and Monarch were able to operate A330s on rugby specials over the years.

roundymac wrote: »

......Most people here know an A330 is not viable out of ORK, it's just such a lame excuse trotted out by EI that annoys me.

As mentioned above EI have operating limits on their A330. While it may well be possible to operate the A330 perhaps the tight turning circle would cause extra strain on the nose gear when utilised multiple times per week. In the case of other airlines with the same aircraft,perhaps they do not have these company issued limits.



And realistically at the end of the day I can't see ORK supporting a 300 seat widebody service to the USA. As it is EI suspend their SNN ops for 2-3 months of the year. Hence the discussion of B757/A321NEO ops, better aircraft to operate lower demnad flights. Even with e direct service you may well see some pax vis LR due price/frequent flyer points/product....

We shall see in 2016, perhaps EI can lease 3-5 from ILFC/CIT/GECAS/AirLeaseCorp etc

a/tel

How much would it cost to inmcrease the turning circle, or add a taxiway???

Is it financially viable?


Would it attract other airlines to operate from the airport if the works were carried out??.


Questions that the airport management may have to ask

a/tel

Also looks to me at first glance that the land is there to either increase the turning circle, or add a taxiway to join with taxiway Bravo

kub

During the good years there were plans to run a parallel taxiway to the east of 17/35. With regard to 330's/ 747's etc being used on Rugby specials etc, that is correct, but consider the distance of the flights, hence not needing to be fully fuelled and the lack of pax baggage.
According to the Cork County Council's development plans there is still a plan to extend 17/35, I imagine it will end up on stilts going over the drops on either end.

Shannon is too close to Cork and it has all the facilities also pax have a huge choice of other European connections for flights to US.

I wonder though have EI looked into the figures of my final point as above?

eatmyshorts

The restriction is to do with the A330's main gear, not the nose gear.

A320

kub wrote: »

, but consider the distance of the flights, hence not needing to be fully fuelled and the lack of pax baggage

An east coast USA Service will not need a full load of fuel,an A330 restriction or no restriction is not the solution,I saw an EI 330 go to LAX a few years ago off runway 16 in DUB
A B757 would be worth a punt,i also think i heard the B767 can operate with no restrictions from Cork,im suprised really the lack of a route considering all the pharma/US multis based in Cork.

roundymac

The other problem for Cork is that there is almost always a cross wind, at an elevation of 450 plus feet that can be quite a crosswind. Landing a A330 on a wet runway with a crosswind would be challanging but that won't be happening. It will be an B757/B739 or A321NEO, so forget A330 or B747. The biggest problem Cork has is SNN just 80miles up the road. Anything from north of Mallow would find it just as easy to go to SNN as would Kerry or Waterford people.
In case people think that Cork people are being selfish looking for a T/A they could be right. It is annoying though having to face into an 80 or 165 mile car journey when you have an airport just 5 miles from the city centre. Going is'nt too bad but it's the coming home that is the killer. Many's a time I've driven back from SNN at 6.30am with match sticks keeping the eyelids open, so much so my next T/A will be the mid day flight from Cork to LHR and the 15.00 hrs BA/AA to JFK arriving at 18.00. I'll suffer standing in line at JFK safe in knowledge that on the return I'll be landing at an airport which is 15 minute drive from home.

A320

roundymac wrote: »

it's the coming home that is the killer. Many's a time I've driven back from SNN at 6.30am with match sticks keeping the eyelids open,

And not forgetting how terrible the road is,I believe the money is there for the motorway but the problem is land legal battles

roundymac

A320 wrote: »

And not forgetting how terrible the road is,I believe the money is there for the motorway but the problem is land legal battles

And An Taisce(:mad:) are objecting as well, saying there is no need for a new road. Makes no difference anyhow, there's no money there to build one.

A320

roundymac wrote: »

And An Taisce(:mad:) are objecting as well, saying there is no need for a new road. Makes no difference anyhow, there's no money there to build one.

It makes a difference when you get stuck behind morons in buttevant and charleville a few times a week!! Guy from NRA was on newstalk and said money is there for it but maybe that's spin.

roundymac

If the money is there for it why don't they go ahead and do it. It'll give the local economy a boost as well as solving a problem.

kub

Just re that road, if you lads have the time, have a read here- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055372963

These guys love roads the way we love aircraft.

A320

roundymac wrote: »

If the money is there for it why don't they go ahead and do it. It'll give the local economy a boost as well as solving a problem.

People in those towns aren't too pleased with loss of business and there will be no dedicated buttevant turn off/junction

Tenger

roundymac wrote: »

If the money is there for it why don't they go ahead and do it...

Its a conspiracy by the DAA

Stovepipe

Hi there
To get back on topic, I was only talking to someone in the know about this the other day and allegedly EI cast about for a 757 to do the job but good, winglet-equipped, clean 757s are very scarce. Ei's A330s can fit into Cork but cannot carry viable fuel-vs-pax load, to justify the route.

regards
Stovepipe

roundymac

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi there
To get back on topic, I was only talking to someone in the know about this the other day and allegedly EI cast about for a 757 to do the job but good, winglet-equipped, clean 757s are very scarce. Ei's A330s can fit into Cork but cannot carry viable fuel-vs-pax load, to justify the route.

regards
Stovepipe

Even if they could take a full load I don't the business is there for an A330 ex Cork, maybe for a 757 but I would think twice weekly at most. I heard that about the shortage of 757's, apparently the US majors are grabbing any that are going because they are finding excellent value on light T/A routes.

kub

roundymac wrote: »

Even if they could take a full load I don't the business is there for an A330 ex Cork, maybe for a 757 but I would think twice weekly at most. I heard that about the shortage of 757's, apparently the US majors are grabbing any that are going because they are finding excellent value on light T/A routes.

I wonder will Boeing regret that decision? Will Boeing introduce a 737 type plane that will fill in for the 757?

Will Airbus go for ETOPS on the new A320NEO...they would be mad not too.

Thats all Cork needs, a plane like one of the above and the will of the DAA especially now after the Shannon news today. They will not want the good people of Cork boarding planes in an airport which they are now competing with.

Tenger

kub wrote: »

I wonder will Boeing regret that decision? Will Boeing introduce a 737 type plane that will fill in for the 757?

Will Airbus go for ETOPS on the new A320NEO...they would be mad not too......

Well this is off topic but the B757 line was closed quite a while ago die to orders drying up. I think there weer only 5-6 orders in the last 12 months of operation. The major use for the B757 was trans-con US flights. Euro airlines weren't as sold on it. (Of course it did sell a decent number of units in outside the US) It had a high power ratio for use in hot and high conditions.

Then the fuel price started to climb, so ticket prices followed and suddenly the US airlines realised that there were unable to fill those B767's/Dc-10's that they had doing intercontinental. Suddenly the B757 (especially the -200 version with retro fitted winglets) seemed to be a great idea on intercontinental 'thinner' routes. Smaller aircraft, so easier to fill and more fuel efficient than the B767/DC-10. (Not hard on the latter)

Notive how most new routes from US airlines to Ireland are using B757's, less of a risk than a B767/A330.

So after the production stopped the B757 experienced a new lease of life. However this lease is quite a niche situation. the A321NEO/B739NG/B737-9MAX between them will cover approx 90% of the current B757 missions. So it appears that both A and B are happy to let that 10% go rather than making a new aircraft and/or greatly altering an existing airframe. Indeed the B787 as originally envisioned was to replace both the B757 and the B767.

I believe neither the B737-9MAX or the A321NEO will have the same range as the B752. I do stand to be corrected on this. Of course further engine improvements (particularly in teh case of the A321) may increase range and allow them to fill that 10% down the line.