Home Heating System up-grade

Eniledam

Hi,

I'm looking to up-grade heating system in old house in Dublin (north city), approximately 90 years old. Current Kerosene Oil Heating system is around 40 years old.

I have found it difficult to get reasonable quotes, and consistent ones, everybody is giving different ideas - some say just replace boiler (which is a given), others boiler and rads, others boilers and heating controls but leave the rads which are gum barrell.

I have one guy who has given a quote of Euro 3,500 for boiler and 3 new condensing trv fitted rads (I will leave the remaining 10 as they are). This includes labour and taking away the old boiler. However, it does NOT include any upgrade to the current (archaic) heating control system. Hot water comes via cylinder in the hotpress. I don't think the guy is registered with SEAI, though he comes recommended, he is not keen to up-grade heating controls?

What do you think?

Is cost reasonable, should I go for heating controls as well, what should total cost be around?

Thanks,

Enile

Markcheese

Controls is where you'll save money !!! That and a decent condensing boiler... ..
If your rads and pipes are in good nick I wouldn't worry about changing everything ...

MOTM

If you're going to the trouble of 2 space heating zones, make sure you have a 7 day timer for each zone seperately as well.

dardhal

To me , 3500€ for replacing an oil boiler with a condensing one looks like a rip off. I don't know how big / powerful your boiler has to be (depends on the area you want to heat and the available insulation),and it looks like you will stick to oil rather than moving to gas, but a medium sized gas condensing boiler (labor included for replacing an old one) should be well below 2000€ (at least, prices are that way in a different European country with a similar taxation and purchase power as Ireland). Radiators are very cheap, and contrary to other, I think you may have to replace some of them by larger ones due to how condensing boilers work.

Traditional boilers heat water in the circuit up to 100ºC or even more. Condensing boilers have a greater efficiency (converting fuel energy to heat), but they do that at the expense of working temperature: they heat water quite less, to 75ºC-80ºC tops most of them (and the lower the temperature, the better the efficiency). That means water through the radiators will be not so hot, and will convey less heat and energy to be released while moving through the radiators.

That means if current radiators are sized according to a higher working water temperature, by pumping lower temperature water coming from a condensing boiler, radiators are going to release less heat, and it will either take longer for the place to achieve comfort temperature, or the system will be simply unable to keep temperature to comfortable levels. The way to overcome this is "enlarging" the radiators, should current ones (after some calculations) can't keep temperature to desired levels.

What is extremely important is the control logic. The simplest control is to let the boiler keep water in the circuit to a given temperature (no need for external controls or thermostats). You will have to be in permanent control of the valves in all the radiators and the thermostat on the boiler itself to get to a certain comfort, which is a PITA, you will likely wear the valves on the radiators and at night you will either freeze or sweat due to lack of automated controls.

Second best approach is to fit at least the most used radiators with thermostatic valves, which you can set manually to a comfort temperature, and let them open and close the flow of water to that radiator when temperature at the valve hits the set threshold. You will still have to set that temperature to the desired level , but at least the boiler will run unattended, and if you set temperature just before going to bed you will get up in the morning without any risk of frostbite :-)

For a new installation,not a retrofit, with little additional expense you can have a decent central control unit , but in your case additional cost is probably not worth it, as you would have to lay new piping and install complex and bulky valves on the walls and the sensors and actuators at each room.

So, for your current home, I would myself ask the installer for a detailed justification for the need to replace the radiators (there may be or may be not a need for that), and a detailed split of the quote: what is parts, what is labor. Important to check the exact boiler they are planning to install, so you can shop around (installers tend to charge you for parts even more than the ourageous and absurd "list prices" from the own brands, even if they usually purchase them at 35% off or more from the list price). Replacing an old boiler with a new one keeping the same kind of fuel is a two hour job for two people, maybe less if access to the boiler is simple and ample (and new boilers are usually less bulky than older ones at the same power output). Check DIY sites for prices of radiators, to have an approximate price for that items, and don't let the installer rip you off with parts (most likely they won't accept installing parts you have purchased, as they would loose hundreds in profits).

I am not against people making a living, I am against people scr3w1ng hard working, but ignorant people, on parts, and then charging outrageous fares on labor on top of those. I can understand the installer has an expense in sourcing and moving the bulky parts around, and that is something they should charge for, but getting 25-50% margins on parts just because, is not fair to me.

annegreen

That seems very expensive - I would have expected €1,500

Gurgle

Eniledam wrote: »

some say just replace boiler (which is a given), others boiler and rads, others boilers and heating controls but leave the rads which are gum barrell.

I replaced my boiler this year for a condensing one, the boiler is an outdoor 'cabin-pack' which cost €1300. Add in fittings and fixtures and it probably came out to €1400 + a weeks work for an amateur plumber (me).

€3,500 sounds like someone is milking it a bit, but it may not be ludicrous depending on the size of the boiler and the work involved in fitting it.

I have one guy who has given a quote of Euro 3,500 for boiler and 3 new condensing trv fitted rads (I will leave the remaining 10 as they are).

What in hell is a condensing rad? (Or is it a condensing trv?)

This includes labour and taking away the old boiler. However, it does NOT include any upgrade to the current (archaic) heating control system.

The old boiler he can sell for €25 to €40 as scrap steel.

I don't think the guy is registered with SEAI

In typically Irish fashion, SEAI registered installers charge a premium that exceeds the grant :rolleyes:

he is not keen to up-grade heating controls?

By 'upgrade', I assume you mean a zoned control system?

This is an all-or-nothing proposition. There's not much point in zoning a couple of rads but not the rest. The new ones (presumably in most used areas) will be tightly controlled while the rest run full blast.

Is the problem that you / he can't get TRVs to fit your existing radiators?