New Build Cost

Ned78

Hi there

Am building a four bedroom 1700sq.ft bungalow with attic conversation in North Kerry
Hope to achieve A3 - 250mm pumped block cavity, wood pellet stove with solar,Kingspan K7 100mm and 63mm insulated plasterboard to attic living space, triple glazing throughout + sealed.
Finishes - very standard, downstairs flooring - tiles and laminate, upstairs flooring - sanding down floor boards.
Works I will do myself - pour foundations, place hardcore+radon barrier, lay concrete floor, all chasing for electrics, place K7 + insulated plasterboard, fit flatpack wardrobes, fit demand control ventilation system, outside footpaths,landscaping
No garage at this stage
hardcore to drive
Septic tank/sump/pump/puraflo modules - 5000euros

I've got bak a few prices for one builder to complete to a builders finish, including all finishings - fruit bowl finish - 165000euros (97euro/sq.ft)

I am going to price for direct labour, am hoping to complete to same for about - 140000euros (82euro/sq.ft.)

was wondering is this a realistic price for direct labour??

All advice welcome, thanks in advance

Ned78

just to clarify- 1000sq.ft ground floor/700sq.ft first floor

kkelliher

Ned78 wrote: »

Hi there

Am building a four bedroom 1700sq.ft bungalow with attic conversation in North Kerry
Hope to achieve A3 - 250mm pumped block cavity, wood pellet stove with solar,Kingspan K7 100mm and 63mm insulated plasterboard to attic living space, triple glazing throughout + sealed.
Finishes - very standard, downstairs flooring - tiles and laminate, upstairs flooring - sanding down floor boards.
Works I will do myself - pour foundations, place hardcore+radon barrier, lay concrete floor, all chasing for electrics, place K7 + insulated plasterboard, fit flatpack wardrobes, fit demand control ventilation system, outside footpaths,landscaping
No garage at this stage
hardcore to drive
Septic tank/sump/pump/puraflo modules - 5000euros

I've got bak a few prices for one builder to complete to a builders finish, including all finishings - fruit bowl finish - 165000euros (97euro/sq.ft)

I am going to price for direct labour, am hoping to complete to same for about - 140000euros (82euro/sq.ft.)

was wondering is this a realistic price for direct labour??

All advice welcome, thanks in advance

spend €300-400 and have a quantity surveyor carry out a cost plan for you. If you do a search on boards.ie you are going to find hundreds of answers to this questions and the bottom line is that it depends on what the actual specificiation you have on each item is before you can confirm a price.

I personally do not believe you can build a property and finish it for less than €100/sq ft. To be clear I mean finish completly and properly and not just a builders finish but as I have already stated it depends on your specification andproduct choices.

BryanF

I love the way you say 'hope to build an A3'
If your building to the 2011 regs that's pretty much the min requirement.
Best of luck on your budget

mickeymeanach

Hi

Firstly this is my first reply to a thread on this site. Followed threads for years on the site. I recently completed a self build of my own. A 1800 sq foot house with living space upstairs.

From the experience of building my own home it is a whole lot of work. And the figure you come up with to build your house you can add a minimum of 10000 extra for all the bits and pieces you wont have thought about. I did enjoy the building of the house at the start but trying to keep after all the tradesmen during the build was hard work.

My friend also had started a house 4 months prior to my start. But he employed the services of a builder and to be honest his house didn't cost much more per sq foot. And he did use good quality building materials.
I was prone to taking a few shortcuts and not good in long run. For example cheap slate when for not much more would have brought good quality slate.
And you WILL take short cuts to save money believe me.

I would have to agree with kkelliher about not finishing for less than 100 per sq foot. And i think that would be a very standard finish.My build was approx 95 sqft to a good builders finish. I read on this site people building for 50 to 80 euro i dont think so unless you are in the building trade and can do 90% of the work yourself. From your insulation specs/puraflo etc i think 100 would be good for builders finish.
And remember its a fixed quote from a builder and you know where you stand.
To be honest kinda sorry i didnt employ builder when you take into account all time, hassle and worst of all days off work to complete build.

Hope this helps

kkelliher

mickeymeanach wrote: »

Hi

Firstly this is my first reply to a thread on this site. Followed threads for years on the site. I recently completed a self build of my own. A 1800 sq foot house with living space upstairs.

From the experience of building my own home it is a whole lot of work. And the figure you come up with to build your house you can add a minimum of 10000 extra for all the bits and pieces you wont have thought about. I did enjoy the building of the house at the start but trying to keep after all the tradesmen during the build was hard work.

My friend also had started a house 4 months prior to my start. But he employed the services of a builder and to be honest his house didn't cost much more per sq foot. And he did use good quality building materials.
I was prone to taking a few shortcuts and not good in long run. For example cheap slate when for not much more would have brought good quality slate.
And you WILL take short cuts to save money believe me.

I would have to agree with kkelliher about not finishing for less than 100 per sq foot. And i think that would be a very standard finish.My build was approx 95 sqft to a good builders finish. I read on this site people building for 50 to 80 euro i dont think so unless you are in the building trade and can do 90% of the work yourself. From your insulation specs/puraflo etc i think 100 would be good for builders finish.
And remember its a fixed quote from a builder and you know where you stand.
To be honest kinda sorry i didnt employ builder when you take into account all time, hassle and worst of all days off work to complete build.

Hope this helps

Great to see a truly honest post from someone who had been through the process

fealeranger

Ned78 wrote: »

Hi there

Am building a four bedroom 1700sq.ft bungalow with attic conversation in North Kerry
Hope to achieve A3 - 250mm pumped block cavity, wood pellet stove with solar,Kingspan K7 100mm and 63mm insulated plasterboard to attic living space, triple glazing throughout + sealed.
Finishes - very standard, downstairs flooring - tiles and laminate, upstairs flooring - sanding down floor boards.
Works I will do myself - pour foundations, place hardcore+radon barrier, lay concrete floor, all chasing for electrics, place K7 + insulated plasterboard, fit flatpack wardrobes, fit demand control ventilation system, outside footpaths,landscaping
No garage at this stage
hardcore to drive
Septic tank/sump/pump/puraflo modules - 5000euros

I've got bak a few prices for one builder to complete to a builders finish, including all finishings - fruit bowl finish - 165000euros (97euro/sq.ft)

I am going to price for direct labour, am hoping to complete to same for about - 140000euros (82euro/sq.ft.)

was wondering is this a realistic price for direct labour??

All advice welcome, thanks in advance

I don't know about the wood pellet stove. A few people I know that have these are very disappointed with them. Poor return for money.
The Puraflo system is another system I have heard bad feedback about. They are extremly over rated and definitly over priced. I am advised to get one of these but I'm strongly against this system over the cost and performance. I am going to challeng the decision over a bio unit as my percolation was not bad and the guy in the council is advising these for all planning permissions obtained, possibly has a deal done with the supplier. Try the direct labour route, it is a good experience. Look into airtightness too. You don't have to do all the house just where the big heat loss will occur around doors and windows. You are going to have to factor wall ties in your price too. Wide cavity has good advantage but slight cost. For €165,000 you will have a very good standard finished house. For the size it should come in cheaper;).

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

I don't know about the wood pellet stove. A few people I know that have these are very disappointed with them. Poor return for money.
The Puraflo system is another system I have heard bad feedback about. They are extremly over rated and definitly over priced. I am advised to get one of these but I'm strongly against this system over the cost and performance. I am going to challeng the decision over a bio unit as my percolation was not bad and the guy in the council is advising these for all planning permissions obtained, possibly has a deal done with the supplier. Try the direct labour route, it is a good experience. Look into airtightness too. You don't have to do all the house just where the big heat loss will occur around doors and windows. You are going to have to factor wall ties in your price too. Wide cavity has good advantage but slight cost. For €165,000 you will have a very good standard finished house. For the size it should come in cheaper;).

Everyone needs to realise you cant choose everything based on it been the cheapest. In construction products like many others you pay for what you get. Cost based on your actual spec and not on a generic cost per sq foot

sydthebeat

fealeranger wrote: »

........... I am advised to get one of these but I'm strongly against this system over the cost and performance. I am going to challeng the decision over a bio unit as my percolation was not bad and the guy in the council is advising these for all planning permissions obtained, possibly has a deal done with the supplier. ...........

My local authority work on the basis that if the treatment system is properly NSAI certified, and the chosen system supplier has complied a site specific report, then it doesnt matter what unit you got permission for.

It would not look good at all if a local authority was giving permission for one specific system only. However, if its a private agent doing the test, it wouldnt be strange to find them specifying what they consider to be the best system in their opinion.

bryaj

fealeranger wrote: »

I don't know about the wood pellet stove. A few people I know that have these are very disappointed with them. Poor return for money.
The Puraflo system is another system I have heard bad feedback about. They are extremly over rated and definitly over priced. I am advised to get one of these but I'm strongly against this system over the cost and performance. I am going to challeng the decision over a bio unit as my percolation was not bad and the guy in the council is advising these for all planning permissions obtained, possibly has a deal done with the supplier. Try the direct labour route, it is a good experience. Look into airtightness too. You don't have to do all the house just where the big heat loss will occur around doors and windows. You are going to have to factor wall ties in your price too. Wide cavity has good advantage but slight cost. For €165,000 you will have a very good standard finished house. For the size it should come in cheaper;).

This is an example of how a competent building contractor building in accordance with Building Regulations cannot compete against the direct laboue route. How can you say You don't have to do all the house just where the big heat loss will occur around doors and windows?

I am aware of a self builder currently near completion of a c 2000ft/2 house where there has been no airtightness carried out or any consideration given to DOE Approved Construction Details - just to mention a few areas where this self builder has little or no knowledge of Building Regs.

I am aware too that there are self builders who do build in accordance with Building Regs.

fealeranger

bryaj wrote: »

This is an example of how a competent building contractor building in accordance with Building Regulations cannot compete against the direct laboue route. How can you say You don't have to do all the house just where the big heat loss will occur around doors and windows?

I am aware of a self builder currently near completion of a c 2000ft/2 house where there has been no airtightness carried out or any consideration given to DOE Approved Construction Details - just to mention a few areas where this self builder has little or no knowledge of Building Regs.

I am aware too that there are self builders who do build in accordance with Building Regs.

I am building to regulations set out in accordance to the time that I applied for planning permission. I was granted planning before the deadline in November 2011. You obviously didn't know this from your above post. You really shouldn't pass judgement not having that information. I didn't need the airtightness done but I thought it would be of benefit. I am not saying anything bad on products, I am passing on information from people who have and use certain products and what they have found good or bad with them. I am in favour of airtightness but the house needs to breathe or have ventilation or whatever you want to call it. It is pointless getting airtightness done and making a big hole in a wall to let air circulate. The MHRV units solved this issue and seem to be good. A few friends have them and are happy with them. I always look at the approach of cost v's effect. An engineer will design the best solution for the project, this is his job and I would expect nothing less. The best solution is not always the most cost effective. I am objective and I will always ask if there is an alternative. The alternative might not be as good as the initial solution but will do the same thing for less cost. Take insulation for example. A BER spec will come in more expensive according to the brand of insulation used. They will have same U values and properties just different brands. I may not be a design engineer but a small bit of common sense has to be included in the choice.

sydthebeat

fealeranger wrote: »

I am building to regulations set out in accordance to the time that I applied for planning permission. I was granted planning before the deadline in November 2011. You obviously didn't know this from your above post. You really shouldn't pass judgement not having that information. I didn't need the airtightness done but I thought it would be of benefit. I am not saying anything bad on products, I am passing on information from people who have and use certain products and what they have found good or bad with them. I am in favour of airtightness but the house needs to breathe or have ventilation or whatever you want to call it. It is pointless getting airtightness done and making a big hole in a wall to let air circulate. The MHRV units solved this issue and seem to be good. A few friends have them and are happy with them. I always look at the approach of cost v's effect. An engineer will design the best solution for the project, this is his job and I would expect nothing less. The best solution is not always the most cost effective. I am objective and I will always ask if there is an alternative. The alternative might not be as good as the initial solution but will do the same thing for less cost. Take insulation for example. A BER spec will come in more expensive according to the brand of insulation used. They will have same U values and properties just different brands. I may not be a design engineer but a small bit of common sense has to be included in the choice.

so you are building under 2005 regulations?

doesnt exactly put you in prime position to comment on complying with current regs, does it.

sydthebeat

fealeranger wrote: »

........ An engineer will design the best solution for the project, this is his job and I would expect nothing less. The best solution is not always the most cost effective. I am objective and I will always ask if there is an alternative. The alternative might not be as good as the initial solution but will do the same thing for less cost. Take insulation for example. A BER spec will come in more expensive according to the brand of insulation used. They will have same U values and properties just different brands. I may not be a design engineer but a small bit of common sense has to be included in the choice.

all the statements above should be taken with a pinch of salt.
especially if the bolded bit is re-read....

If different products offer the same solutions, then the obvious choice will be cost based.... however if

the alternative might not be as good

then the choice will include more than the economic cost.

make no mistake, if you use lower standard products you are only fooling yourself in the long run. A case of 'penny wise pound foolish' i think.

fealeranger

Maybe I worded that wrong:o. It should have read "The alternative might not be as expensive". The only difference between Kingspan and Xtratherm is the price so how could one be better than the other? I tried to get this accross without naming products but there it goes anyway. I never tried to mislead anybody on current regs. He had not mentioned airtightness in his post and I was bringing it up for his own benefit. Maybe I should not have told him he does not need to get all the house airtight but he had none at all. I am passing on my experiences as I'm in the middle of a build and just letting people know what I encountered and did and didn't do for their own benifit. I will comment no more on this in case I come accross misleading or otherwise. Happy building:).

kkelliher

If you re-read most of the posts relating to this poster, cost appears to be the determing factor in every decision.

I also wonder to what level it can be confirmed that building regulations are been complied with in a self build. As you will have periodic inspections by an Engineer / Architect / Tech etc it cannot be possible to confirm that everything confirms with regulations, especially in a senario where the self builder has limited knowkledge of the industry.

sydthebeat

fealeranger wrote: »

Maybe I worded that wrong:o. It should have read "The alternative might not be as expensive". .....

but thats not what you said, and is exactly what i am saying.

fealeranger, there is no problem with you posting here about different materials, even name products and the prices you are getting them for.

But please dont say something like, the alternative may not be as good, but sure use it anyway because it costs less.

Examples using general product names ie "kingspan" and quinntherm" is also misleading because kingspan kooltherm insulation has a better insulation value than any quinntherm product. So what you said above is actually not correct.
Kooltherm >45mm has a TC value of 0.02
quinntherm wall has a TC value of 0.022-0.023

this difference can make a significant impact on any BER or PHPP.

As a specifier i always look at the cost / benefit of different soloutions, and a lot of the time the more expensive product is worth it because it is actually better. Saying that, i never specify kooltherm

kkelliher

sydthebeat wrote: »

and a lot of the time the more expensive product is worth it because it is actually better.

And this is exactly the reason that discussing costs per sqft as a comparitive tool is a waste of time as the cost difference on spec can be massive from house to house

fealeranger

kkelliher wrote: »

If you re-read most of the posts relating to this poster, cost appears to be the determing factor in every decision.

I also wonder to what level it can be confirmed that building regulations are been complied with in a self build. As you will have periodic inspections by an Engineer / Architect / Tech etc it cannot be possible to confirm that everything confirms with regulations, especially in a senario where the self builder has limited knowkledge of the industry.

You have to cost the house and material to build it. The bank don't give out money for fun anymore you know. You do enough posting about cost/ft yourself:rolleyes::p. Engineer is signing off and he is very particular to be honest, a bit too much if you ask me. The council have even been out twice and everything is good. I'm not trying to stir issues here but the point I'm trying to get across is I'm building a house close to passive standard(pending test) for less than what some of you guys are saying it should cost. My knowledge is limited in building to a certain extent so maybe I'm an educated fool:) but I got very good honest people involved in the build and it has made all the difference:cool:. There were plenty professionals in the boom times with degrees with plenty letters after their title that built things, i don't know if they could even be considered a house so not very fair to shoot down the guy trying to get value for hard earned cash with a self build project:(.

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

You have to cost the house and material to build it. The bank don't give out money for fun anymore you know. You do enough posting about cost/ft yourself:rolleyes::p.

To start with if you have read my posts you will clearly see that i do not for one second agree that cost per ft should be used as a budget tool given the differences house to house. It can be used as purly an indicative range. In respect to my post, it is clear from your posts that cost is the main factor in your decision making process. Whereas you have to cost the project there is a massive difference between costing and cheapest. I have no idea why you are referring to a bank as this has no relevance to the discussion. A bank lends based on a number of factors relating to the person/people looking for a loan of which cost is only one factor.

Engineer is signing off and he is very particular to be honest, a bit too much if you ask me. The council have even been out twice and everything is good.

This makes no sence. You have later made reference to poor professionals in the boom and yet put credence in the council coming out on 2 occasions and saying everything is good. How would they have any idea what is good if they have only come out twice and would not have seen anything closed up. Follow that with a statement where you give out about an engineer been particular in certification??????

I'm not trying to stir issues here but the point I'm trying to get across is I'm building a house close to passive standard(pending test) for less than what some of you guys are saying it should cost.

To be fair you are quoting figures which people are finding hard to believe based on the true cost of building and also based on every other poster on boards

You are then following this up with statements that imply differently

This forum is a great source of information for people on topics and it is important that people dont get the wrong idea on costs etc when in search of their dream home. I spend alot of my working life dealing with people and banks trying to sort out house builds that have gone wrong on the basis of unrealiatic costings and therefore i sometimes find posts on here hard to believe.

My knowledge is limited in building to a certain extent so maybe I'm an educated fool:) but I got very good honest people involved in the build and it has made all the difference:cool:. There were plenty professionals in the boom times with degrees with plenty letters after their title that built things, i don't know if they could even be considered a house so not very fair to shoot down the guy trying to get value for hard earned cash with a self build project:(.

At no stage have you been shot down. If you are going to post you have to expect peoples opinions.

And I for one have yet to meet a dishonest cowboy!!!!!!! Without been flipant, honesty of effort does not infer automatic abilty to build.

I have previously stated that i hope your build works out for you in everyway you have stated as i am sure does every poster on here and i do not attempt to infer you have anything but good builders and the best of intent but in reality you cannot have any guarantees in building. Even the best builders make mistakes.

fealeranger

kkelliher wrote: »

To start with if you have read my posts you will clearly see that i do not for one second agree that cost per ft should be used as a budget tool given the differences house to house. It can be used as purly an indicative range. In respect to my post, it is clear from your posts that cost is the main factor in your decision making process. Whereas you have to cost the project there is a massive difference between costing and cheapest. I have no idea why you are referring to a bank as this has no relevance to the discussion. A bank lends based on a number of factors relating to the person/people looking for a loan of which cost is only one factor.




This makes no sence. You have later made reference to poor professionals in the boom and yet put credence in the council coming out on 2 occasions and saying everything is good. How would they have any idea what is good if they have only come out twice and would not have seen anything closed up. Follow that with a statement where you give out about an engineer been particular in certification??????




To be fair you are quoting figures which people are finding hard to believe based on the true cost of building and also based on every other poster on boards

You are then following this up with statements that imply differently

This forum is a great source of information for people on topics and it is important that people dont get the wrong idea on costs etc when in search of their dream home. I spend alot of my working life dealing with people and banks trying to sort out house builds that have gone wrong on the basis of unrealiatic costings and therefore i sometimes find posts on here hard to believe.




At no stage have you been shot down. If you are going to post you have to expect peoples opinions.

And I for one have yet to meet a dishonest cowboy!!!!!!! Without been flipant, honesty of effort does not infer automatic abilty to build.

I have previously stated that i hope your build works out for you in everyway you have stated as i am sure does every poster on here and i do not attempt to infer you have anything but good builders and the best of intent but in reality you cannot have any guarantees in building. Even the best builders make mistakes.

Council called out twice. They do spot checks on the building out my way these days. Why does this confuse you. The lads that were there the day in question said there was a guy out from the council. I really don't know why I'm replying to you any more. The house cost €200/ftsq. Does this sound better to you:eek:.

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

Council called out twice. They do spot checks on the building out my way these days. Why does this confuse you. The lads that were there the day in question said there was a guy out from the council. I really don't know why I'm replying to you any more. The house cost €200/ftsq. Does this sound better to you:eek:.

Completly missing the point, if you read the post you should not be confused.

archtech

fealeranger wrote: »

Council called out twice. They do spot checks on the building out my way these days. Why does this confuse you. The lads that were there the day in question said there was a guy out from the council.

So the council called twice, and what did they inspect? Did they ask to review your construction drawings and check the works against them? How long did they spend on site 2-3 hours or a 15 minute visit? Did they ask for covered up work to be opened up to be inspected? Did they take photos of the works? What department of the council were they from? And finally will they be issuing you with a Certificate of Compliance?

The bottom line is a spot check isn't much good when you don't know what your looking for, in some houses a wall insulation thickness of 100mm may be sufficient to comply with the building regulations, in others it may be necessary to provide a thickness of 150mm, so without that knowledge before inspecting the construction how can one tell?

Costs per sq. foot are only a very general guide, more so today than every before, there's very few builders now giving quotes at xx/sq.foot, they are all pricing each elemental of the job, as elements and specifications vary from house to house.

fealeranger

They parked and walked in from the main road said they were from the council and asked if it was ok to check a few things. They checked the height ot the roof on one ocasion and on the other ocasion the were checking around the base of the block work(maybe cheching DPC was present) and walked the percolation area. Block layer maintained sombody made a complaint and they were just showing up to confirm whether it was valid complaint or not, he said that it was occuring more often in the past 15 months. Am I going to have to back up everything I say here. I seem to have to explain things in great detail to justify my posts here. I'm not going to be explaining every single thing I state on this forum. As I have stated already in another post I am giving examples of things I encountered in my project. If people don't believe them or don't like to read them then ignore them, I'm really not pushed either way. If mod,s tell me back off I will. Until then i will post for others to read. It all helps.
"Costs per sq. foot are only a very general guide, more so today than every before, there's very few builders now giving quotes at xx/sq.foot, they are all pricing each elemental of the job, as elements and specifications vary from house to house."
Couldn't agree more on this statement. Builders will price for everything, Lawns, drive way, perimeter wall, front gate. Most self builds will get the house to maybe footpath (not always) if they can and then finish the ground work in their own time. It may not be ideal but it helps keep the mortgage payment low. Not everybody likes this idea and wants it finished right now. Each to their own on this one.

archtech

fealeranger wrote: »

They parked and walked in from the main road said they were from the council and asked if it was ok to check a few things. They checked the height ot the roof on one ocasion and on the other ocasion the were checking around the base of the block work(maybe cheching DPC was present) and walked the percolation area.

It most probably was a visit from the planning office rather than building control to check compliance with planning and properly on foot of a complaint.

fealeranger wrote: »

I seem to have to explain things in great detail to justify my posts here. I'm not going to be explaining every single thing I state on this forum. As I have stated already in another post I am giving examples of things I encountered in my project.

You have a tendency to give only bits of the information each time, which ends up as miss information, as demonstrated above, someone from the council checking the height of the roof isn't necessarily checking compliance with building regulations.

fealeranger wrote: »

Builders will price for everything, Lawns, drive way, perimeter wall, front gate.

Builders will only price what they are asked to price and the best way to ensure that is to have a proper set of tender drawings and documents prepared detailing the scope of works and not handing them a set of planning drawings with very little information on them.

fealeranger wrote: »

Most self builds will get the house to maybe footpath (not always) if they can and then finish the ground work in their own time. It may not be ideal but it helps keep the mortgage payment low. Not everybody likes this idea and wants it finished right now.

Unfortunately a condition of most mortgages is to provide an opinion/certificate of compliance with planning permission for the final drawn down and in order to do so, most things like entrances and some landscaping needs to be done for that to happen. The days of solicitors undertaking and qualified opinions of compliance are gone when it comes to the banks. Something to bear in mind.

fealeranger

archtech wrote: »

It most probably was a visit from the planning office rather than building control to check compliance with planning and properly on foot of a complaint.



You have a tendency to give only bits of the information each time, which ends up as miss information, as demonstrated above, someone from the council checking the height of the roof isn't necessarily checking compliance with building regulations.



Builders will only price what they are asked to price and the best way to ensure that is to have a proper set of tender drawings and documents prepared detailing the scope of works and not handing them a set of planning drawings with very little information on them.


Unfortunately a condition of most mortgages is to provide an opinion/certificate of compliance with planning permission for the final drawn down and in order to do so, most things like entrances and some landscaping needs to be done for that to happen. The days of solicitors undertaking and qualified opinions of compliance are gone when it comes to the banks. Something to bear in mind.

I didn't know this. They have come down hard on these aspects lately. I will have a drive way but it will not be the finished product so to speak, more of a temporary drive until I get the lawn sorted out. My summer may not be as relaxing as i thought it would be. Tractor trailer and digger and off I go I suppose.

muffler

fealeranger wrote: »

I didn't know this. They have come down hard on these aspects lately. I will have a drive way but it will not be the finished product so to speak, more of a temporary drive until I get the lawn sorted out. My summer may not be as relaxing as i thought it would be. Tractor trailer and digger and off I go I suppose.

Earlier this year I had clients who could not get the final stage payment of their mortgage until a bit of outstanding stonework on the house was completed and the driveway finished. So yes, the lenders have tightened up a lot.

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

I didn't know this. They have come down hard on these aspects lately. I will have a drive way but it will not be the finished product so to speak, more of a temporary drive until I get the lawn sorted out. My summer may not be as relaxing as i thought it would be. Tractor trailer and digger and off I go I suppose.

To show why your posts are getting comments here is a prime example

You have previously stated that ALL IN your build including everything to completion was costing you 55ft2 and now you are saying that the driveway will not be a finished product, you have also stated in response to a previous post from me that you have no free labour and yet you are implying in posts that you are doing some of the works yourself.

Surly you can see why queries are been raised? It really dosnt effect anyone what you build and for what cost but as muffler has outlined this forum is very good at keeping as close to fact as possible

fealeranger

kkelliher wrote: »

To show why your posts are getting comments here is a prime example

You have previously stated that ALL IN your build including everything to completion was costing you 55ft2 and now you are saying that the driveway will not be a finished product, you have also stated in response to a previous post from me that you have no free labour and yet you are implying in posts that you are doing some of the works yourself.

Surly you can see why queries are been raised? It really dosnt effect anyone what you build and for what cost but as muffler has outlined this forum is very good at keeping as close to fact as possible

I think you need to read my posts one more time because I stated all in with a few exceptions like driveway, lawn, and furniture.

bryaj

Fealeranger how can you claim ''I'm building a house close to passive standard(pending test) for less than what some of you guys are saying it should cost when in an earlier thread in relation to airtightness you advise
''You don't have to do all the house just where the big heat loss will occur around doors and windows''

Do you know what the criteria are to achieve Passive House Standard are?
For airtightness it is less than or equal to 0.6/h for Passive House.

Of course your costs are going to be cheaper if you dont come near to close to carrying out the level of work required to achieve airtightness alone.

Where else are you cutting corners then claiming you are working to close to the highest standards?

I understand that first a house must be (1) designed in accordance with the Passive House Planning Package, then (2) built to meet the required criteria and (3) verified & certified by the Passive House Institute or one of there agents to achieve Passive House certification.

Can we get back to comparing like with like.

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

I think you need to read my posts one more time because I stated all in with a few exceptions like driveway, lawn, and furniture.

Again again again you really need to take a step back and read what you write

You started your very first post on this topic at €55 ALL IN finished product. You were adament everything was included. You even stated

"It might deviate up €1-3 extra if we decide to go for a higher finish standard as in more expensive doors,tiles, timber flooring and furniture but we have a good finish in the €50 as it stands."

Then about 6/7 posts in you stated lawn, fences and driveway were not included

Now you are adding in furniture despite your above quote stating standard furniture was included.

It is not our fault that your contradicting your own posts

Bottom line it is all but impossible to belive that you are building a new property to current regs, signed off in accordance with builing regs, incluing everything (except lawns, driveway and fences) even furniture and site for €55ft2 with no free labour of any type.

But you say you have so all i can say is very well done

fealeranger

This thread is gone off track altogether. At no stage did I say I was building a passive house in any post. I said it should be close to passive. Just to keep some guys happy here are a few figures. The Original BOM for costing from a quantity surveyor came in with a total of just over €170,000. That was everything lawns,driveway and boundary walls except for Furniture. 3400ft at €170,000. Could the experts do the calculation for me please as my knowledge of the building trade is not good:rolleyes:;). I am actual coming in well under target for the moment and plastering is nearly finished. I can't do any more for you lads. I'm not going to scan receipts so you can all see them.

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

This thread is gone off track altogether. At no stage did I say I was building a passive house in any post. I said it should be close to passive. Just to keep some guys happy here are a few figures. The Original BOM for costing from a quantity surveyor came in with a total of just over €170,000. That was everything lawns,driveway and boundary walls except for Furniture. 3400ft at €170,000. Could the experts do the calculation for me please as my knowledge of the building trade is not good:rolleyes:;). I am actual coming in well under target for the moment and plastering is nearly finished. I can't do any more for you lads. I'm not going to scan receipts so you can all see them.

BOM is a bill of materials so i do hope its a bill of quantities you mean. I dont care much for receipts but the bill would be an interesting read. Although you did previously say it was the biggest waste of money you spent.

Your original post said it included everything, 5/6 posts in you excluded lawns fences and driveways but you specifically stated it included standard furniture

Can i ask how you have treated VAT in your figures?

PS if you want us to stop replying to your posts you could stop posting😆or as generally happens just agree to disagree and move on

fealeranger

You are correct about the BOM. It was more a BOQ if you like but you know what I am on about so I'm being some way clear. Furniture standard for me would be range cooker, fridge, freezer, dish washer, stoves, fitted kitchen. I paid VAT on material but on direct labour I got the price and that was it. For this standard from a Contractor the quotes coming in were around €162,000-€175,000 less the furniture and VAT. Maybe that might be the differnce between our prices. The VAT on the builders prices at 21% that time was around €196,000.
I could stop posting but that wouldn't be much fun:D:p:cool:.

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

You are correct about the BOM. It was more a BOQ if you like but you know what I am on about so I'm being some way clear. Furniture standard for me would be range cooker, fridge, freezer, dish washer, stoves, fitted kitchen. I paid VAT on material but on direct labour I got the price and that was it. For this standard from a Contractor the quotes coming in were around €162,000-€175,000 less the furniture and VAT. Maybe that might be the differnce between our prices. The VAT on the builders prices at 21% that time was around €196,000.
I could stop posting but that wouldn't be much fun:D:p:cool:.

I could but i wont.......Biting my tongue i'll agree to disagree

bryaj

kkelliher you might but i wont

VAT? 196K less 21% = 161.984K & VAT @ 13.5% = 183.851K = more inaccuracies, will someone please take this person off the air.

kkelliher

bryaj wrote: »

kkelliher you might but i wont

VAT? 196K less 21% = 161.984K & VAT @ 13.5% = 183.851K = more inaccuracies, will someone please take this person off the air.

I was trying not to be seen as picking fault with every post but it is difficult in this instance as the inaccuracies just keep coming

As a qs i am also a bit perplexed by the poster who rubbished the work of his qs originally, rubbished the document, now dosnt know what its actually called (given there is a bill of materials and bill of quantities) and yet it trying to use it to justify his costs.

Very odd but at this stage unsuprising

fealeranger

kkelliher wrote: »

I was trying not to be seen as picking fault with every post but it is difficult in this instance as the inaccuracies just keep coming

As a qs i am also a bit perplexed by the poster who rubbished the work of his qs originally, rubbished the document, now dosnt know what its actually called (given there is a bill of materials and bill of quantities) and yet it trying to use it to justify his costs.

Very odd but at this stage unsuprising

You are right about VAT on labour at 13.5%. Vat on material was 21% and now is 23%. That is a strange. He quoted me €162,000 for all that. I explained what I wanted doors,tiles,timber floors,stoves and it was less the kitchen too. The Price inc vat quoted was €196,000. This included all ground works. You could say finished up to turn key and furnish yourself. I really can't explain anymore short of posting the quotation on here. I gave you guys plenty figures. I'm still am getting the house built for a lot less than this and this was one lowest quote I got from a contractor.

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

I explained what I wanted doors,tiles,timber floors,stoves and it was less the kitchen too.

Do you send a detailed spec and drawings or the blank boq? Did he give you a detailed breakdown and by detail i dont just mean elemental summary.

I gave you guys plenty figures. I'm still am getting the house built for a lot less than this and this was one lowest quote I got from a contractor.

And you gave us plenty of contradictions to go with your figures

And of course it will be cheaper when your paying cash to the blackmarket as apposed to a cheque to a legitimate builder

archtech

fealeranger, you contribution reminds me of the type of conversations clients tell me about having with the fellow down in the pub when told that their budget is unrealistic or when the get their tender prices back and they are over their expectations and can't understand why. The cost will be what the guy (in the pub) paid in terms buying the materials and paying for the labour, but the cost of making the phone calls to get the best price, collecting the materials or visiting the site to check that the materials were delivered or the labour turned up or the time they themselves off work to do stuff will never be factored in. When these are brought into the equation, as often not the price changes.

You claim your house will be near passive, can you define near passive in terms of the energy requirements in kWh/m2/yr

fealeranger

Near passive is not passive. All my statement say it is near passive. This is a discussion forums. You can say what you want. I put up figures and quotes, take it or ignore it. They are real time prices and all you can do is say this is not true. Give me some sort of reason that this can't be done. I say it can be done and I'm doing it at the moment, you say it can't! Tell me why?

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

Near passive is not passive. All my statement say it is near passive.

Seat is nearly Volkswagan but it isnt a Volkswagan....... either it is or it isnt otherwise its a pointless topic for discussion.

They are real time prices and all you can do is say this is not true. Give me some sort of reason that this can't be done.

Maybe I have missed something but I dont recall you giving any real times prices on anything. You have stated your proposed bottom line cost and your cost per ft2. You have to my recollection not mentioned the cost of anything specific in any of the posts in this discussion or the "price of direct labour 2012" discussion.

I say it can be done and I'm doing it at the moment, you say it can't! Tell me why?

Why? because you generally cant buy a new merc for €10,000 and building a new house is no different. Based on years of experience at ground level dealing with new builds, extensions, developments etc etc, I tend to think I have some idea about the cost of building, and as I have stated on a number of occasions already I dont believe you can build for the price you have stated when you are saying it includes everything (sorry updated to exclude some furniture, fences and lawn) and you did not get any free labour.

kkelliher

archtech wrote: »

fealeranger, you contribution reminds me of the type of conversations clients tell me about having with the fellow down in the pub when told that their budget is unrealistic or when the get their tender prices back and they are over their expectations and can't understand why. The cost will be what the guy (in the pub) paid in terms buying the materials and paying for the labour, but the cost of making the phone calls to get the best price, collecting the materials or visiting the site to check that the materials were delivered or the labour turned up or the time they themselves off work to do stuff will never be factored in. When these are brought into the equation, as often not the price changes.

You claim your house will be near passive, can you define near passive in terms of the energy requirements in kWh/m2/yr

I remember meeting a very well know architect in Dublin and he compared
self building to baking a cake. (wired I know but makes sense).

He said that like self building, when baking a cake you can easily find and have access to the recipe, all you have to do is follow the recipe, but for some reason people find this difficult as they are not bakers, some get it right but most get it wrong and it is generally never as good as the professionally bought cake. Some people will even keep going even when they know its wrong and wont look for guidance from a baker.

And he finished by pointing out that unlike a cake you cant put your house in the bin and start again.:D

fealeranger

That must be some engineer that compared making a cake to building a house:rolleyes:. It bet you would have some fun if he was in charge of your build project:D. From what I can see a house price can never be set. You will always be doing something somewhere along the line to a house. Windows will need changing after time, Kitchens need changing, not happy with the tiles in the bathroom, repaint the house, re-insulate the attic. My folks are mid 70's and they are still doing things around and in the house. A house will always be soaking money.

archtech

fealeranger wrote: »

That must be some engineer that compared making a cake to building a house.

Where did kkelliher make reference to an engineer in his last post ? His post made reference to a story of a well known architect.

There is a difference, but then again your definition of some things seems to differ from the norm anyway.

sydthebeat

fealeranger wrote:

I am passing on my experiences as I'm in the middle of a build and just letting people know what I encountered and did and didn't do for their own benifit. I will comment no more on this in case I come accross misleading or otherwise. Happy building.

fealeranger wrote: »

Near passive is not passive. All my statement say it is near passive. This is a discussion forums. You can say what you want. I put up figures and quotes, take it or ignore it. They are real time prices and all you can do is say this is not true. Give me some sort of reason that this can't be done. I say it can be done and I'm doing it at the moment, you say it can't! Tell me why?

you will not be held to any less standard than any other poster.........so when you post about your "experiences" and they appear to be at odds with pretty much ever other poster, you should expect to get your posts challenged, queried and be asked to be more specific. This isnt anything particular to you... if you read many threads here you will always see posters challenged when they post something with goes against the experienced of the frequent posters here.

If you have somehow managed to bring in a build cost at €55 per sq ft then thats fabulous. As this is a discussion forum, and you keep reminding us of this, perhaps you should discuss in more detail how you are going to manage to do this.

You refer to "near passive" but at no stage, even after you were queried, did you state exactly what kwhr/m2 your near passive build is designed as?

you havent either stated exactly what regulations you are building in accordance with. 2005? 2008?
you have said that you

didnt need the air tightness test done

yet claim to be building close to passive... how you marry those two statements together i cant understand.

you have also said that you are in "the middle of your build" .... at what stage are you? roof on yet?

sinnerboy

fealeranger wrote: »

This is a discussion forums. You can say what you want.

No you cannot. From Boards.ie FAQ.

No freedom of speech.This is a private website. There is no "right" to freedom of speech here. We, the Admins and moderators DO want to promote discussion but FREE un-moderated discussion online turns into a screaming match between children. We believe that rules of etiquette should be applied .......... You can use blogger.com to say what YOU like, what you aren’t entitled to is access to the community we have built here without abiding by the community's rules, as decided and enforced by us.

Warning - you are very close to being banned from here for the tone of your posts which have been characterised by mostly by opinion backed up with at best half truths. We have spent a long , long time here establishing this forum as a place apart from the local pub to discuss our dedicated topic.

You are quite free to conduct yourself as you see fit at any weddings , funerals , christenings , golf club or wherever you choose to hang out in real life.

But not here.

Reflect on that before you post again.

Do not be confrontation with anyone.

Do be respectful of all others here.

fealeranger

archtech wrote: »

Where did kkelliher make reference to an engineer in his last post ? His post made reference to a story of a well known architect.

There is a difference, but then again your definition of some things seems to differ from the norm anyway.

My mistake on this. You are correct. He is an Architect but none the less he is not a Civil/Construction/Building engineer and like me or any ordinary person should not compare a self-build to making a cake. I am an electronic engineer and I would not do that. My house is still designed and signed off by a very experienced competent engineer. It is my choice to go self-build and not get a contractor. I said my bit on this. If anybody does not agree fair enough. I will not be contributing any further breakdown of facts and figures on a public forum on this subject. I said my house is on target for €55/sqft. Nobody has to accept it or like it. I gave my actual costs and advice on the original post by Ned78. As for the passive side of things, The house is designed well enough with the aid of the BER and the engineer's experience with good standard of workmanship, well sealed, All thermal bridging eliminated to achieve a very low U value. I will not know for sure until we test it but I will be very dissapointed after all the research, planning and effort gone into the project if it is not a very low energy consumption house.

I've got bak a few prices for one builder to complete to a builders finish, including all finishings - fruit bowl finish - 165000euros (97euro/sq.ft)
I am going to price for direct labour, am hoping to complete to same for about - 140000euros (82euro/sq.ft.)
was wondering is this a realistic price for direct labour??
All advice welcome, thanks in advance

Enjoy the build Ned78



edit: fixed your post by inserting the correct quotation.
sydthebeat

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

He is an Architect but none the less he is not a Civil/Construction/Building engineer and like me or any ordinary person should not compare a self-build to making a cake. I am an electronic engineer and I would not do that.

It was clearly a simple analogy and to be fair to me whilst a funny comparison it has alot of merit. It was not supposed to be a direct like with like comparison.

I said my house is on target for €55/sqft. Nobody has to accept it or like it. I gave my actual costs and advice on the original post by Ned78

You did not give actual costs. You gave a target cost per ft2 and a target bottom line but you have not detailed any of the actual costs.

I think its unfair to knock the discussions we are having based on your posts when your have not provided any detail, responses of fact, or actual advise to the OP outside of sound bites and "opinions". As has been stated by the Mods you have to expect examination on the topics as it is the responsibility of all not to give a false impression of the industry and costs as a whole.

I specifically stated in a previous post that whereas I dont believe the figures quoted, I still hope it does work out for you at that level but unfortunately I also deal with clients who believed they were at that level and have to deal with the consequences in discussions with banks on uncompleted properties as a result of unrealistic costs at the outset which have turned out to be wrong.